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Contested dungeons

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  • NeurathNeurath Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited January 22
    novercalis wrote: »
    Neurath wrote: »
    novercalis wrote: »
    Neurath wrote: »
    I'm not against grouped mobs. I think there should be singular mobs and grouped mobs to make a dungeon more inclusive.

    flat no.

    They way Steven answered Solo play - he skirted around not to outright say there is no solo play. He said there will be some solo content - caravan, siege, BH.

    As for solo players doing solo XP - I dont want to see that be a thing. MAYBE 2-3 classes being somewhat capable.

    To be more specific - I do thing you should be able to single kill a target, but its gonna take you longer and the XP rate is NEEDS to be not worth compared to those who are in groups.

    Sure, you can solo - lower level single mobs in the open world. In the dungeon - forget about, unless you're a level 40 in a lvl 20 dungeon - then once again - SURE.

    Therefor I am against seeing individual players of equal level in equal lvl dungeons soloing. Can you single pull from someone, I guess - but dungeon mobs should look like this:

    level 40 player fighting a "level 40 mob" is technically a lvl 42-43 mob.
    In EQ a mob 2-3+ levels above you is pretty much impossible to solo.

    So once again, you, the solo lvl 40 player will need to fight lvl 37 dungeon mob to be MAYBE viable/doable. But you are getting the XP rate of a 37 mob, that is lower level than you, which makes it even less xp.

    I hope all of that made sense.

    What are you saying here? You just want grouped mobs and no solid solo mobs? Won't that get boring? Perhaps inclusive was the wrong word to use but I stand by my initial statement.

    precisely. I am against the concept of solo game play in an mmorpg. Unfortunately the term MMORPG has been bastardize and encompasses many games that arent in the same vein as EQ/WoW/Lineage. (FF14 Is NOT an mmorpg).
    Basically what I think an MMORPG is a CO-OPERATIVE MMORPG that requires teamwork and everything is mostly tied to social gameplay and interaction.

    If I wanted to play solo rpg, I'll play Zelda, FF, Elden Ring, Skyrim, etc. An MMO - I dont want to just share a universe - I want to be reliant by others and others be reliant of me. Team work, group effort, server effort.

    You can solo in WoW though, and I soloed in EQ somewhat. There's a whole ironman group for WoW. I would rather have solo components in the game than forced Raid Finder, Group Finder, Guild Finder just because the game tag is MMORPG. If no one can't progress without a group the game will die. We don't all want to be stuck waiting for the people with jobs to log in.
  • arsnnarsnn Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha One
    edited January 22
    I really enjoyed skimming through the thread.
    Let me add some of the ideas.


    Caravans in dungeons

    -I think locking out the gameplay loop of caravans out of the dungeons would be kind of odd, especially because dungeons are connected with the world and not instanced.

    -Caravans could be used for a extraction type of gameplay loop, similar to how the division or escape of tarkov did it. Groups crawling through dungeons can store wast amounts of heavy materials in the caravan, once you feel you got enough you are looking for an extraction point, where your loot is same from pvp.

    -Secondly caravans could be used to build infrastructure in dungeons. Opposed to burning bridges you might build them :)
    Guilds could bring in materials from both the open world and other dungeons or transport them from the dungeon itself to places where its needed.
    Things like building bridges or digging tunntels could be huge tasks involving several guilds even competing against each other to build their stuff first or sabotaging the efforts of others. It sort of act as a content gate in order to get to the next area.

    But there could also be infrastructure like small settlements in the deepest dungeon levels, that give players various services.
    Such as respawn areas, so that people wont have to start from the beginning again.
    Weapon armor related repair stations.
    Build a safe area for people to rest, by building freeholds and taverns.
    Markets for key materials.
    Maybe some kind of housing to teleport to, once you are in the dungeon.

    -Also coming from the open world should have an increased aggro zone for mobs, or trigger something, so that getting them through the dungeon could be raid itself.

    Gameplay mechanics that allow for players to get into specialized roles.

    As PvP will be a central part of many dungeons, i would like to see some gameplay mechanics that are mostly used in mobas.
    You want to avoid pvp groups? Designate a guy that sets up wards/vision in the surrounding areas.
    You want to counter the attacks of pvp groups? Set up traps that deal damage.


  • The Caravans in dungeons idea from @arsnn could be extended to a full castle, owned by the end boss, a castle which could be never fully conquered.
    Battles with the boss would drop materials but would also enrage him causing a masive counter attack to the nearby node.
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
  • VaknarVaknar Moderator, Member, Staff
    Interesting discussions happening here. The idea of open-world dungeons will likely be a new one for many players. I suspect many of them will find it more fun and less daunting than it may sound if you're coming from an instanced-only-dungeons kind of game :)
    community_management.gif
  • arsnn wrote: »
    Caravans in dungeons

    -Secondly caravans could be used to build infrastructure in dungeons. Opposed to burning bridges you might build them :)
    Guilds could bring in materials from both the open world and other dungeons or transport them from the dungeon itself to places where its needed.

    This means that
    - each arriving caravan could actually be important to win against the boss
    - the retrieved item might be needed in the other metropolis. So if two metropolises cooperate, the other nodes should get a high incentive to intercept and destroy that specific caravan
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
  • Strevi wrote: »

    This means that
    - each arriving caravan could actually be important to win against the boss
    - the retrieved item might be needed in the other metropolis. So if two metropolises cooperate, the other nodes should get a high incentive to intercept and destroy that specific caravan

    Agreed, it would also provide a great reason to have quests around the different parts of the dungeon and the supply routes in and out of it. And it would be awesome to maybe have this as part of the node system as well.

    With the advancement of a node new artisan and caravan quests will be unlocked to advance to deeper levels of the dungeon unlocking them progressively.

    I also would think it would be fun to have some out-of-the-dungeon impact. Let's say you defeat that corrupted mushroom monster in the cave and for some time, this increases the growth rate of herbs in the nearby forest. This would make PvE content relevant for PvP - an enemy Node may want to bleed dry the resources in the vicinity of an enemy Node, so they for once plunder the forest and then station troops in the Mushroom dungeon to protect it so the herbs and trees in the forest don't recover too quickly.
  • Strevi wrote: »
    Transporting the loot back to a storage should be riskier than driving a caravan.

    This won't happen. That would create a strong reward for corruption, which they've already said they won't do. Caravans are opt-in PvP zones...clearing PvE dungeons are not. Killing green players to lay claim to an open world dungeon IS the reward itself. If someone has already cleared the dungeon and is now transporting goods back to storage, you're too late.
  • Kilion wrote: »
    So what I would like to do is gather ideas for what would be good ways to design contestable dungeons to have variety and avoid all dungeons having a "the strongest group will get the boss loot" design.

    The dungeons could have areas which favor different classes. For example in some places summoners might have an advantage. In other zones, more thieves with their trap detection and disarming abilities. Or classes which can root or control enemy NPC's.

    Then in such dungeons, random teams will have different zones where they are 'the strongest'.
    Maybe these zones would also not stay unchanged and after each area clean, the same team might not always feel ready to stay or would struggle.
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Strevi wrote: »
    The dungeons could have areas which favor different classes. For example in some places summoners might have an advantage. In other zones, more thieves with their trap detection and disarming abilities. Or classes which can root or control enemy NPC's.

    Then in such dungeons, random teams will have different zones where they are 'the strongest'.
    Maybe these zones would also not stay unchanged and after each area clean, the same team might not always feel ready to stay or would struggle.
    This is pretty much what I'm expecting already :)
  • NiKr wrote: »
    Strevi wrote: »
    The dungeons could have areas which favor different classes. For example in some places summoners might have an advantage. In other zones, more thieves with their trap detection and disarming abilities. Or classes which can root or control enemy NPC's.

    Then in such dungeons, random teams will have different zones where they are 'the strongest'.
    Maybe these zones would also not stay unchanged and after each area clean, the same team might not always feel ready to stay or would struggle.
    This is pretty much what I'm expecting already :)

    Absolutely! It is a good way to reward flexibility and variation in the group you are having.

    And what would get me really hyped would be rewarding having certain artisans in your group. Example: There is an altar in a ruins dungeon that was overrun by creatures and depending on the sacrifices you make on that altar, you can unlock different types of events or bosses or even debuffs on other groups in the dungeon. However you must have an master herbalist with you to gather the delicate flowers in the dungeon first or a master hunter to skin and gut the right creature. And the other way around - you might want to have an alchemist with you so in case someone floods the dungeon with poison from sacrificing the flowers on the altar, they can use the same flowers to quickly create an antidote and cancel the effect of the poison.
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