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We HAVE to do this right.

IAmWarden01IAmWarden01 Member
edited January 24 in General Discussion
We, as a community, MUST promote good things within the Ashes of Creation community. The gaming world as a whole has become filled with such toxic vitriol that it makes playing otherwise good games, completely impossible. I'm not speaking from a gameplay point of view, but from the point of view of our social interactions. The relentless and unending barrage of cruelty, heartlessness, apathy, and, in a word, evil, coming from the gaming community as a whole WILL infect AoC like a cancerous poison and destroy this game. Just like it has done to every other game prior.
We, as a community, must not allow it to happen. Whenever we see toxicity and cruelty we MUST push back against the player(s) doing it. It's very possible that Ashes of Creation will be the last real chance for a true MMORPG made by gamers and for gamers that we see in decades. It's very possible AoC is the last chance we'll have to create a space where we can truly enjoy a game and not have to deal with a hailstorm of hatred.
We have to stand together and make sure the AoC community is welcoming, friendly, kind, compassionate, and good. We have to do this right.
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Comments

  • NishUKNishUK Member
    edited January 24
    There is no good without bad but I am an individual of strong will AND some things that are labelled as bad are infact a matter of perspective.

    This post really makes me feel like some kind of war veteran or more specifically an online veteran...I've been in the front lines since I was 15 and I'm now 35+....I thought many young people get enough training from an early age with their smart phones :/

    Also a year of League of Legends should harden anyones attitude, people shoulder grow stronger, not weaker!...but back in my day there were good bands like Linkin Park to help me through a lot of emotional stress...that's the end of my waffling now :D
  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    In brightest day, in blackest night,
    No evil shall escape my sight
    Let those who worship evil's might,
    Beware my power... AoC fanboy's light!
    Forum-Signature.png
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  • SolvrynSolvryn Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    We, as a community, MUST promote good things within the Ashes of Creation community. The gaming world as a whole has become filled with such toxic vitriol that it makes playing otherwise good games, completely impossible. I'm not speaking from a gameplay point of view, but from the point of view of our social interactions. The relentless and unending barrage of cruelty, heartlessness, apathy, and, in a word, evil, coming from the gaming community as a whole WILL infect AoC like a cancerous poison and destroy this game. Just like it has done to every other game prior.
    We, as a community, must not allow it to happen. Whenever we see toxicity and cruelty we MUST push back against the player(s) doing it. It's very possible that Ashes of Creation will be the last real chance for a true MMORPG made by gamers and for gamers that we see in decades. It's very possible AoC is the last chance we'll have to create a space where we can truly enjoy a game and not have to deal with a hailstorm of hatred.
    We have to stand together and make sure the AoC community is welcoming, friendly, kind, compassionate, and good. We have to do this right.

    Define toxic
  • Solvryn wrote: »
    Define toxic

    If AoC made a thread on that :) ....

    kermit-typing.gif

  • SolvrynSolvryn Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    NishUK wrote: »
    Solvryn wrote: »
    Define toxic

    If AoC made a thread on that :) ....

    kermit-typing.gif

    I have a much different perspective on what toxic is, couldn’t hurt to ask.
  • NishUKNishUK Member
    edited January 24
    Solvryn wrote: »
    I have a much different perspective on what toxic is, couldn’t hurt to ask.

    I just want to know who this is largely addressed too specifically and we're not even anywhere near the stage yet of a horde of Asmongold fans who post on twitch like pirahna's with fingers being on here! Is this addressed to me and my duty to contain them or be a guiding light to proper community interaction???

    "The gaming world as a whole has become filled with such toxic vitriol that it makes playing otherwise good games, completely impossible" from my perspective I just cannot take this seriously, what has been made impossible exactly? I've been a part of many servers of new and much older games that still live on and I'll welcome anyone provided they're at the minimal level of mature but somehow this toxic culture has escaped my attention unless OP has come straight from the realms of any of Riot's Gaming catalogue but one of age and wisdom must realise that a lot who exist there are very young and at the early stages of their own personal development.
  • I strongly agree with you, but what I want to add is that I saw one stream last night that gave me hope in gaming community, it was apex legends stream and there were 3 people talking together, one being very provocative, and the kid in same voice responded few times with very accurate way, the way I saw it, the kid was way more rational and ''free'' and other guy which was probably in his 30s was very toxic in sense how average toxic gamer acts, just pure criticism mentality and overall very immature for his ages.

    I think that kids will make impact in this gaming era the way it is supposed to be -Free and very non critical of competitive nature, I know it's just one stream that I saw, but it gave me hope, if there's one kid like that, there might be more... With time I think gaming era will become much better experience.

    I think a lot of us are entangled with our emotions whether it is opposing competitive nature or being overly competitive. Kids are I think much more free whit themselves being competitive and I think that will have a big role on our community. There are some poking going on here and there, but it's all in very rational manner, even though for many of us that might be immature, they still have some sense behind it all.

    However I do think that we need to act more and more and to try open more minds that do not see how they behave.

  • I will be giving crafted stuff away, for social fun and to help create a nontoxic environment. You only need one slit of light to dispel a world of darkness.
  • tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Perhaps many of the 'toxic' players suffer from emotional, social and mental difficulties which are beyond their own ability to heal. The rest of us will have to be nice to them, work with them, in order for them to get better.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Liniker wrote: »
    In brightest day, in blackest night,
    No evil shall escape my sight
    Let those who worship evil's might,
    Beware my power... AoC fanboy's light!
    Tell me you're old without telling me you're old.
  • MybroViajeroMybroViajero Member
    edited January 24
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  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    The 'gaming community as a whole' is toxic.

    Generally humanity as a whole is toxic.

    If you push back against them hard enough they will leave, and then you will have less people playing (no opinion on this being good or bad except financially for Intrepid).

    Games became 'popular', 'mainstream', and then they started to attract players based on their gameplay and what they offer.

    More and more games lately offer the opportunity to be toxic, the 'moment where someone is not at their best and you can tear them down further', the moment where they 'are too naive' or 'make a mistake' and you tear into them as if they don't deserve to even breathe air.

    AoC is a game that will have more of those moments than many others, and those moments will be shared with many others. Combating toxicity at this point is a matter for Intrepid, and we will mostly just get to report it. By all means, gently confront every player who berates another for not bringing quite enough potions or every Tank/Healer who decides their Tank/Healer partner should 'kill themselves' because of a half-second mistime on some mechanic.

    Some will calm down because they aren't toxic. Many will draw you into their issues. If the plan is to get them to go off long enough to say enough things to get GM actions though...

    I'm actually opposed to that. I do it and I'm still opposed to it. That's why I'm toxic. Because I try to bait idiots into getting themselves punished when they're having a bad day.

    Toxicity is a function of skill at making others suffer. It's the game that offers the opportunities.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited January 24
    The only things that should be bannable are racial homophobic, mysoginistic insults, threats to harm inrl, as well as insults directed to peoples mothers.

    The rest is fair game. Punishing them would create real bitterness and a trully nasty community. All the pretentious niceties still dont hide the ill intent of some nasty people towards other players.

    So yeah, define "toxic". Im sick of hearing that word. Toughen up.
  • I think people in AoC will be nice. :smile:
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
  • DolyemDolyem Member
    edited January 24
    The only social things that should be dealt with are threats and discriminatory comments. Otherwise telling someone to f*** off should be fine seeing as profanity filters can be options when dealing with younger players. The only other thing I can think of to socially deter is ERPing because profanity or not, if this game is planning to have kids in it, that garbage should be punishable in public chat.

    The term toxic is subjective and tossed around to the point where it carries little to no meaning anymore.
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  • Intrepid and the community has already been doing a pretty good job at smacking out any really bad vibes (which is good!). No one can get rid of all the toxicity but as long as the really bad ones don't make camp here that's a win in my opinion B) This thread is also making me have PTSD flashbacks to the many years in LoL and WoW arenas haha :D:'(
  • VaknarVaknar Moderator, Member, Staff
    WuqingYe wrote: »
    Intrepid and the community has already been doing a pretty good job at smacking out any really bad vibes (which is good!). No one can get rid of all the toxicity but as long as the really bad ones don't make camp here that's a win in my opinion B) This thread is also making me have PTSD flashbacks to the many years in LoL and WoW arenas haha :D:'(

    I like to think so too!
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  • Toxic players gonna toxic play.

    Just remember not to feed the trolls, to help in every small way that presents itself, and to voice only positivity to eachother, in-game.

    Complaints are for the forums!



  • IAmWarden01IAmWarden01 Member
    edited January 25
    Solvryn wrote: »
    We, as a community, MUST promote good things within the Ashes of Creation community. The gaming world as a whole has become filled with such toxic vitriol that it makes playing otherwise good games, completely impossible. I'm not speaking from a gameplay point of view, but from the point of view of our social interactions. The relentless and unending barrage of cruelty, heartlessness, apathy, and, in a word, evil, coming from the gaming community as a whole WILL infect AoC like a cancerous poison and destroy this game. Just like it has done to every other game prior.
    We, as a community, must not allow it to happen. Whenever we see toxicity and cruelty we MUST push back against the player(s) doing it. It's very possible that Ashes of Creation will be the last real chance for a true MMORPG made by gamers and for gamers that we see in decades. It's very possible AoC is the last chance we'll have to create a space where we can truly enjoy a game and not have to deal with a hailstorm of hatred.
    We have to stand together and make sure the AoC community is welcoming, friendly, kind, compassionate, and good. We have to do this right.

    Define toxic

    I think that 2 solid definitions of toxicity are:
    (1) Creating a standard and then expecting and demanding that other people, without their prior consent, obey and follow that standard and then punishing them when they fail to live up to that standard or when they simply refuse to follow it.
    (2) Berating, belittling, mocking, and/or bullying another person for a perceived inadequacy.

    I believe that doing one or the other, or both at the same time, is toxic.
    0vsxntxgzupq.png
  • SolvrynSolvryn Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Solvryn wrote: »
    We, as a community, MUST promote good things within the Ashes of Creation community. The gaming world as a whole has become filled with such toxic vitriol that it makes playing otherwise good games, completely impossible. I'm not speaking from a gameplay point of view, but from the point of view of our social interactions. The relentless and unending barrage of cruelty, heartlessness, apathy, and, in a word, evil, coming from the gaming community as a whole WILL infect AoC like a cancerous poison and destroy this game. Just like it has done to every other game prior.
    We, as a community, must not allow it to happen. Whenever we see toxicity and cruelty we MUST push back against the player(s) doing it. It's very possible that Ashes of Creation will be the last real chance for a true MMORPG made by gamers and for gamers that we see in decades. It's very possible AoC is the last chance we'll have to create a space where we can truly enjoy a game and not have to deal with a hailstorm of hatred.
    We have to stand together and make sure the AoC community is welcoming, friendly, kind, compassionate, and good. We have to do this right.

    Define toxic

    I think that 2 solid definitions of toxicity are:
    (1) Creating a standard and then expecting and demanding that other people, without their prior consent, obey and follow that standard and then punishing them when they fail to live up to that standard or when they simply refuse to follow it.
    (2) Berating, belittling, mocking, and/or bullying another person for a perceived inadequacy.

    I believe that doing one or the other, or both at the same time, is toxic.

    Interesting, not the response I thought I would get.

    Very little is “toxic” to me.

    I guess for me people who get shit nerfed with bad faith are toxic I guess.

    I don’t care if anyone shit talks, they’re usually bad at it.

    That’s it.


  • (1) Creating a standard and then expecting and demanding that other people, without their prior consent, obey and follow that standard and then punishing them when they fail to live up to that standard or when they simply refuse to follow it.

    Interesting,
    On one side I think I'm on board with this IF this is more targeted towards the hosts IE the company that made the game and creating whatever stirring pots that follow in the first place! I will sadly expect it to be about veteran players themselves though who have figured out better fundamentals within the game and then some people blame them for "spoiling" their game WHEN it was all along a host issue.

    So I'm a guild officer/leader (true story), I'm open minded about anything including within the game but when the time calls to really perform for a party/guild (serious grinding time/guild war/guild boss raid, etc etc) If you are insufficient with playing "the game" ie with what most people would like to do and create a "scene" within that time about it then you don't care about other peoples time and I will automatically call you a selfish person and look to kick you from the guild. It's that simple.

    "Don't hate the player, hate the game", this quote is timeless and not only is it so true but if you consider almost everything in life a game you will get better but it is a test of your mental fortitude.
    If an mmorpg is an "OPEN world" then it must be open to everything, good/evil/skilled/unskilled/the jesters/liars/tough guys etc and unless it does all of that, then it's no game, just a social hub for losers or the ridiculous "I use games to chill out, I have no time for such things, I have a wife and children yada yada" how many online quick games or single player games could this MAN have played but instead "cries" in a commitment focused mmorpg!

    Happy gaming! :lol:
  • IAmWarden01IAmWarden01 Member
    edited January 25
    NishUK wrote: »

    (1) Creating a standard and then expecting and demanding that other people, without their prior consent, obey and follow that standard and then punishing them when they fail to live up to that standard or when they simply refuse to follow it.

    Interesting,
    On one side I think I'm on board with this IF this is more targeted towards the hosts IE the company that made the game and creating whatever stirring pots that follow in the first place! I will sadly expect it to be about veteran players themselves though who have figured out better fundamentals within the game and then some people blame them for "spoiling" their game WHEN it was all along a host issue.

    So I'm a guild officer/leader (true story), I'm open minded about anything including within the game but when the time calls to really perform for a party/guild (serious grinding time/guild war/guild boss raid, etc etc) If you are insufficient with playing "the game" ie with what most people would like to do and create a "scene" within that time about it then you don't care about other peoples time and I will automatically call you a selfish person and look to kick you from the guild. It's that simple.

    "Don't hate the player, hate the game", this quote is timeless and not only is it so true but if you consider almost everything in life a game you will get better but it is a test of your mental fortitude.
    If an mmorpg is an "OPEN world" then it must be open to everything, good/evil/skilled/unskilled/the jesters/liars/tough guys etc and unless it does all of that, then it's no game, just a social hub for losers or the ridiculous "I use games to chill out, I have no time for such things, I have a wife and children yada yada" how many online quick games or single player games could this MAN have played but instead "cries" in a commitment focused mmorpg!

    Happy gaming! :lol:

    My main focus of the definition I gave is "without their prior consent". As long as an individual is consenting to the standard, then enforcing that standard is not toxic. It's when the individual does not consent to the standard and yet is still forced to obey it that the standard and those enforcing it are being toxic and, if we're talking about real life, oppressive.

    I also don't believe that excluding a person who refuses to obey the standard is being toxic. No one has the right to be included in your group without your consent. So it's a two way street:
    You shouldn't force your standards upon others without their consent, and they shouldn't be allowed into your group without your consent.
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  • @IAmWarden01 have you ever stopped to consider the strain for the party leader or leaders in general that work on improving the atmosphere of many?
    Sometimes when stuff gets hard I struggle to even be myself (joking with guild in a nutshell) and it especially gets further frustrating when people get lazy and/or don't type on the keyboard for ages because they're partly afk (when they only have the responsibility of their own character).

    If I sense that a person is a new player, I will try my best to make sure they're aware of the situation, ENEMY or friend.

    So I'll tell you a situation,
    We found a PvE spot and we also pull mobs in from x amount of rooms
    during pulling with bump into another player, he says "taken".
    we continue to pull mobs as normal, he then rocks up to our party and "it's taken, we'll kill you"

    You get rude players like this in competitive mmo's, it's fine and its a game so try and let the actions talk but words will fly from a fair few people and verbal exchanges will get spicy and imo whoever gets verbally involved has agreed to enter the game of "who is cooler and/or morally better!".

    Tell me when the "mobs taken" situation gets toxic but without examples from yourself it's hard to take seriously or pinpoint what gaming conditions you are referring too.


  • NeurathNeurath Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Nothing wrong with the announcement 'Its taken'. I feel you are too soft if you find such a statement to be 'toxic'.
  • NishUKNishUK Member
    edited January 25
    Neurath wrote: »
    Nothing wrong with the announcement 'Its taken'. I feel you are too soft if you find such a statement to be 'toxic'.

    Of course there's nothing wrong with it and it's especially needed verbal for people who struggle or have no english skills but it can get rather annoying in the moment when you've set up quite a substanial amount of time setting up a party and there is little PvP or PvE action following and everyone is evaluating their choices. It further gets frustrating when the party contains elements of non guild or non alliance which means a war cannot properly set up a PvP condition and you have to dance around the rules of the game which are all set up in the essence to counter bullying.

    To be competitive I may choose to die to a player without fighting back, leaving them in the roughest of spots as a red/corrupt and quickly re-enter or get teleported back by a non flagged summoner and these types of dances can last forever.

    I would be very much in favor of such spots having a proper contest system set out properly and a conclusion to such things would reduce "verbal bollox" for the more fragile playerbase.
  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited January 25
    Negativity breeds negativity. Negativity Bias is a very real thing, and the solution isn't to ask people to toughen up or just deal with it. That solves nothing and just makes everything worse. You might even say it's toxic.

    Spreading negativity and hate through words or action is easy, especially when physically safe behind the screen. It's the go-to action for many weak-willed cowards when they are frustrated with something. Obviously we also get the sociopaths, psychopaths, narcissists, etc., but they are outside the scope of what I am getting at here.

    Real, positive strength is to be kind (or at least neutral) to other people, even when things are frustrating or annoying. I am not talking about turning the other cheek here. If someone wrongs you in the game, report them if they are breaking TOS, kill them on sight, declare war on their guild and burn their node to the ground. Those are all valid ingame responses.

    But don't make your anger personal. Don't take any of your frustrations in the game or RL out on innocent players in the game. Redirect that energy if possible (the healthier choice), or contain that shit while in the game. Ashes is not your personal outlet for all your RL frustrations, at least not if you go negative.

    There is also a huge difference between smack-talk/shit-talking between RL friends and strangers too. It's not the same, the context is very different, and there is no excuse. The "I like smack-talking strangers" crowd can respectfully go F right off. :wink:

    As the world-renowned philosopher Elsa of Arendelle once said: "Let it go, let it go".
  • NishUKNishUK Member
    edited January 25
    @Nerror I respect your opinion to the minimal degree in a call to a much more mature and positive attitude in gaming but I still firmly believe it to be a fantasy if anything without more involved measures (ie South Korea style, banned and further accounts need to be tied to a working phone number so you're gone! Western laws cannot do it).

    Its impossibility only furthers with unsuitable conditions and I cannot help but reference League of Legends, it is a team winning game but no one is promoted to work as a team bar everyone being happy with their role/placement selections.

    Weighing in additionally that, mostly younger people in the western world are not promoted to have a respectful attitude, unlike in places like Japan and online literally involves a persons learning and growth development, I was a much more direct and naive person back when I played my 1st mmorpg with a dial up modem and I'm very passionate about a game being played by all in a correct manner that I've had a lot of personal development to contain my distaste for peoples choice of actions or lack of.

    So unless people are held accountable, including better gaming practices designed for online play, I consider this all pointless I'm sorry.
  • SolvrynSolvryn Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I’ve always found having the ability to drop anyone in the game a good answer to a lot of toxicity.


  • I think that 2 solid definitions of toxicity are:
    (1) Creating a standard and then expecting and demanding that other people, without their prior consent, obey and follow that standard and then punishing them when they fail to live up to that standard or when they simply refuse to follow it.

    Sounds like you're saying Georgie is being toxic here...
    The only things that should be bannable are racial homophobic, mysoginistic insults, threats to harm inrl, as well as insults directed to peoples mothers.

    The rest is fair game.

    Seems to fit your definition.

  • if something kills the mood to play the game as you want, is toxic.
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
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