We HAVE to do this right.

We, as a community, MUST promote good things within the Ashes of Creation community. The gaming world as a whole has become filled with such toxic vitriol that it makes playing otherwise good games, completely impossible. I'm not speaking from a gameplay point of view, but from the point of view of our social interactions. The relentless and unending barrage of cruelty, heartlessness, apathy, and, in a word, evil, coming from the gaming community as a whole WILL infect AoC like a cancerous poison and destroy this game. Just like it has done to every other game prior.
We, as a community, must not allow it to happen. Whenever we see toxicity and cruelty we MUST push back against the player(s) doing it. It's very possible that Ashes of Creation will be the last real chance for a true MMORPG made by gamers and for gamers that we see in decades. It's very possible AoC is the last chance we'll have to create a space where we can truly enjoy a game and not have to deal with a hailstorm of hatred.
We have to stand together and make sure the AoC community is welcoming, friendly, kind, compassionate, and good. We have to do this right.

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NishUK

IAmWarden01 wrote: »

(1) Creating a standard and then expecting and demanding that other people, without their prior consent, obey and follow that standard and then punishing them when they fail to live up to that standard or when they simply refuse to follow it.

Interesting,
On one side I think I'm on board with this IF this is more targeted towards the hosts IE the company that made the game and creating whatever stirring pots that follow in the first place! I will sadly expect it to be about veteran players themselves though who have figured out better fundamentals within the game and then some people blame them for "spoiling" their game WHEN it was all along a host issue.

So I'm a guild officer/leader (true story), I'm open minded about anything including within the game but when the time calls to really perform for a party/guild (serious grinding time/guild war/guild boss raid, etc etc) If you are insufficient with playing "the game" ie with what most people would like to do and create a "scene" within that time about it then you don't care about other peoples time and I will automatically call you a selfish person and look to kick you from the guild. It's that simple.

"Don't hate the player, hate the game", this quote is timeless and not only is it so true but if you consider almost everything in life a game you will get better but it is a test of your mental fortitude.
If an mmorpg is an "OPEN world" then it must be open to everything, good/evil/skilled/unskilled/the jesters/liars/tough guys etc and unless it does all of that, then it's no game, just a social hub for losers or the ridiculous "I use games to chill out, I have no time for such things, I have a wife and children yada yada" how many online quick games or single player games could this MAN have played but instead "cries" in a commitment focused mmorpg!

Happy gaming!

IAmWarden01

NishUK wrote: »

IAmWarden01 wrote: »

(1) Creating a standard and then expecting and demanding that other people, without their prior consent, obey and follow that standard and then punishing them when they fail to live up to that standard or when they simply refuse to follow it.

Interesting,
On one side I think I'm on board with this IF this is more targeted towards the hosts IE the company that made the game and creating whatever stirring pots that follow in the first place! I will sadly expect it to be about veteran players themselves though who have figured out better fundamentals within the game and then some people blame them for "spoiling" their game WHEN it was all along a host issue.

So I'm a guild officer/leader (true story), I'm open minded about anything including within the game but when the time calls to really perform for a party/guild (serious grinding time/guild war/guild boss raid, etc etc) If you are insufficient with playing "the game" ie with what most people would like to do and create a "scene" within that time about it then you don't care about other peoples time and I will automatically call you a selfish person and look to kick you from the guild. It's that simple.

"Don't hate the player, hate the game", this quote is timeless and not only is it so true but if you consider almost everything in life a game you will get better but it is a test of your mental fortitude.
If an mmorpg is an "OPEN world" then it must be open to everything, good/evil/skilled/unskilled/the jesters/liars/tough guys etc and unless it does all of that, then it's no game, just a social hub for losers or the ridiculous "I use games to chill out, I have no time for such things, I have a wife and children yada yada" how many online quick games or single player games could this MAN have played but instead "cries" in a commitment focused mmorpg!

Happy gaming!

My main focus of the definition I gave is "without their prior consent". As long as an individual is consenting to the standard, then enforcing that standard is not toxic. It's when the individual does not consent to the standard and yet is still forced to obey it that the standard and those enforcing it are being toxic and, if we're talking about real life, oppressive.

I also don't believe that excluding a person who refuses to obey the standard is being toxic. No one has the right to be included in your group without your consent. So it's a two way street:
You shouldn't force your standards upon others without their consent, and they shouldn't be allowed into your group without your consent.

NishUK

@IAmWarden01 have you ever stopped to consider the strain for the party leader or leaders in general that work on improving the atmosphere of many?
Sometimes when stuff gets hard I struggle to even be myself (joking with guild in a nutshell) and it especially gets further frustrating when people get lazy and/or don't type on the keyboard for ages because they're partly afk (when they only have the responsibility of their own character).

If I sense that a person is a new player, I will try my best to make sure they're aware of the situation, ENEMY or friend.

So I'll tell you a situation,
We found a PvE spot and we also pull mobs in from x amount of rooms
during pulling with bump into another player, he says "taken".
we continue to pull mobs as normal, he then rocks up to our party and "it's taken, we'll kill you"

You get rude players like this in competitive mmo's, it's fine and its a game so try and let the actions talk but words will fly from a fair few people and verbal exchanges will get spicy and imo whoever gets verbally involved has agreed to enter the game of "who is cooler and/or morally better!".

Tell me when the "mobs taken" situation gets toxic but without examples from yourself it's hard to take seriously or pinpoint what gaming conditions you are referring too.

Songcaller

Nothing wrong with the announcement 'Its taken'. I feel you are too soft if you find such a statement to be 'toxic'.

NishUK

Neurath wrote: »

Nothing wrong with the announcement 'Its taken'. I feel you are too soft if you find such a statement to be 'toxic'.

Of course there's nothing wrong with it and it's especially needed verbal for people who struggle or have no english skills but it can get rather annoying in the moment when you've set up quite a substanial amount of time setting up a party and there is little PvP or PvE action following and everyone is evaluating their choices. It further gets frustrating when the party contains elements of non guild or non alliance which means a war cannot properly set up a PvP condition and you have to dance around the rules of the game which are all set up in the essence to counter bullying.

To be competitive I may choose to die to a player without fighting back, leaving them in the roughest of spots as a red/corrupt and quickly re-enter or get teleported back by a non flagged summoner and these types of dances can last forever.

I would be very much in favor of such spots having a proper contest system set out properly and a conclusion to such things would reduce "verbal bollox" for the more fragile playerbase.

Nerror

Negativity breeds negativity. Negativity Bias is a very real thing, and the solution isn't to ask people to toughen up or just deal with it. That solves nothing and just makes everything worse. You might even say it's toxic.

Spreading negativity and hate through words or action is easy, especially when physically safe behind the screen. It's the go-to action for many weak-willed cowards when they are frustrated with something. Obviously we also get the sociopaths, psychopaths, narcissists, etc., but they are outside the scope of what I am getting at here.

Real, positive strength is to be kind (or at least neutral) to other people, even when things are frustrating or annoying. I am not talking about turning the other cheek here. If someone wrongs you in the game, report them if they are breaking TOS, kill them on sight, declare war on their guild and burn their node to the ground. Those are all valid ingame responses.

But don't make your anger personal. Don't take any of your frustrations in the game or RL out on innocent players in the game. Redirect that energy if possible (the healthier choice), or contain that shit while in the game. Ashes is not your personal outlet for all your RL frustrations, at least not if you go negative.

There is also a huge difference between smack-talk/shit-talking between RL friends and strangers too. It's not the same, the context is very different, and there is no excuse. The "I like smack-talking strangers" crowd can respectfully go F right off.

As the world-renowned philosopher Elsa of Arendelle once said: "Let it go, let it go".

NishUK

@Nerror I respect your opinion to the minimal degree in a call to a much more mature and positive attitude in gaming but I still firmly believe it to be a fantasy if anything without more involved measures (ie South Korea style, banned and further accounts need to be tied to a working phone number so you're gone! Western laws cannot do it).

Its impossibility only furthers with unsuitable conditions and I cannot help but reference League of Legends, it is a team winning game but no one is promoted to work as a team bar everyone being happy with their role/placement selections.

Weighing in additionally that, mostly younger people in the western world are not promoted to have a respectful attitude, unlike in places like Japan and online literally involves a persons learning and growth development, I was a much more direct and naive person back when I played my 1st mmorpg with a dial up modem and I'm very passionate about a game being played by all in a correct manner that I've had a lot of personal development to contain my distaste for peoples choice of actions or lack of.

So unless people are held accountable, including better gaming practices designed for online play, I consider this all pointless I'm sorry.

Solvryn

I’ve always found having the ability to drop anyone in the game a good answer to a lot of toxicity.

Electronn

IAmWarden01 wrote: »

I think that 2 solid definitions of toxicity are:
(1) Creating a standard and then expecting and demanding that other people, without their prior consent, obey and follow that standard and then punishing them when they fail to live up to that standard or when they simply refuse to follow it.

Sounds like you're saying Georgie is being toxic here...

George_Black wrote: »

The only things that should be bannable are racial homophobic, mysoginistic insults, threats to harm inrl, as well as insults directed to peoples mothers.

The rest is fair game.

Seems to fit your definition.

Strevi

if something kills the mood to play the game as you want, is toxic.

Nerror

NishUK wrote: »

@Nerror I respect your opinion to the minimal degree in a call to a much more mature and positive attitude in gaming but I still firmly believe it to be a fantasy if anything without more involved measures (ie South Korea style, banned and further accounts need to be tied to a working phone number so you're gone! Western laws cannot do it).

Its impossibility only furthers with unsuitable conditions and I cannot help but reference League of Legends, it is a team winning game but no one is promoted to work as a team bar everyone being happy with their role/placement selections.

Weighing in additionally that, mostly younger people in the western world are not promoted to have a respectful attitude, unlike in places like Japan and online literally involves a persons learning and growth development, I was a much more direct and naive person back when I played my 1st mmorpg with a dial up modem and I'm very passionate about a game being played by all in a correct manner that I've had a lot of personal development to contain my distaste for peoples choice of actions or lack of.

So unless people are held accountable, including better gaming practices designed for online play, I consider this all pointless I'm sorry.

Well, I saw the OP as a call to the community to not be toxic, so that's why I gave my perspective on that. In other words, we here on the forums need to not add to the toxicity by actively trying to be more kind, or at worst, be neutral when frustrated by the game or life in general. But obviously we should strive for kindness. Like negativity, kindness also spreads, but not as easily.

As @Azherae was talking about, the main solution needs to come from Intrepid. We need good reporting tools, active GM's that actually handle toxic players in a swift manner, and with clear guidelines detailing what they consider toxic behaviour.

You bring up League of Legends, which is a great example of what happens when a competitive game has a community that is just allowed to go negative without the company clamping down on it in time. They are doing automated bans now, as far as I know, using some AI tools, but the real problem is mainly they did too little for way too many years. The cancer has metastasized in that game and the playerbase. It's to a point where I think it will carry over into the Riot MMO as well, if the LoL playerbase moves over to it.

So bottomline, we the community need to do our part not to make a problem worse, and help how we can, but Intrepid are the ones with most of the power here obviously.

Liniker

George_Black wrote: »

So yeah, define "toxic". Im sick of hearing that word. Toughen up.

It's funny to hear this from the guy that everyone around here knows it's the clearest literal example of a toxic person in the forums that jumps on the throats of every new person even if they are just asking a question LOL

I agree tho, I don't think toxic people, like George, should get punished, only if it's hate speech and all that.

Hinotori

I hope they go for the most minimalistic moderation of people possible.

I'd much rather people settled their beef in the arena or siege war field than have a person from intrepid ban them for calling them a c word for blocking the door to a shop for example.

Plus it makes things more personal. You'd remember who called you a dipstick and when you see their caravan needing help you can make a choice.

maouw

I want to add:

There's generally three ways we can respond to others' faults as consumers:

Silence/Turn a blind eye
Gentle Warning/Probing
Direct Confrontation/Outrage

I'm still learning how to do this properly myself, but I find it helpful to ask myself 2 questions:

1. Does this person realize their mistake?
- if not, don't go into outrage coz they're simply unaware. Try to help them think through the cause and effect of their action (if they're open to it)
- if yes, give them the opportunity to apologize and correct themselves
2. Was it intentional?
- if not, don't go into outrage coz it was an accident. Figure out what's triggering the accident in the bigger picture.
- if yes, and the person isn't apologetic about it, apply direct pressure to the wound to stop further bleeding.

Silence is for battles that aren't worth fighting, which for me are usually:

petty nit picking
people who don't correct their mistakes
people I've already confronted

The above is the healthiest way I know of to create space for people to make mistakes and correct themselves.

The other thing to remember is that this forum is a feedback discussion forum - we want don't want weak criticism of ideas here. I was speaking to @JustVine about this balance the other day, she had ideas about how we could take notes from the SCP community and ways to avoid meaningless tension.

Zahie

How I see it, the definition of being toxic is when someones behavior and ongoing actions cause harm to other people by physical or mental means.
The toxic traits include unsupportive and unpleasant behavior, being manipulative, judgmental, threatening, spreading false or harmful claims, creating anxiety and conflict, encouraging bullying, ridiculing others, being controlling, and self-centered.

Since such people can be the cause of various negative feelings and emotions like depression, anxiousness, worthlessness, and unhappiness I don't think toxic behavior should be something that is acceptable or seen lightly on.
There are so many people who have to deal with a lot of toxicity IRL at school, work and even at home, they shouldn't have to deal with it when they are enjoying their hobby, which is supposed to be a fun experience.
Repeatedly toxic behavior should have consequences, even if it's just a warning, because just like kids and teenagers, even adults have to be reminded how to behave and treat others. For some, it could even be a wake up call to get help and work on themselves. Toxic behavior is usually caused by a mental problem which is majorly reflected in personality disorders.

Okilian

I think everyone being nice, friendly, helpful etc etc is so boring and unrealistic.

Got to have a thick skin and deal with life.

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