Static enemy problem

The AI so far is far too simple (this is going by the live streams, and I do understand that it's probably a work in progress but this is just something that looks very bland not gona lie and sugercoat it), they do no readjusting to hit better with their AOE attacks or anything, hell I would take them just moving around just to spice things up.
Even for melee foes they can circle strafe their target, meanwhile ranged attackers should try to be evasive.

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Ludullu

Ashgan wrote: »

I do understand that it's probably a work in progress.

Yes.

Taleof2Cities

It’s a work in progress.

Ashgan

Well judging by how the combat is just a recreation practically of bygone days which includes static foes I'm kinda hoping that it is actually just an issue of in-progress work and not how it will operate...

Strevi

They said (6 years ago) this game will be

Utilizing new AI technology that hasn't been seen in other MMORPG projects.[3]

Azherae

Strevi wrote: »

They said (6 years ago) this game will be

Utilizing new AI technology that hasn't been seen in other MMORPG projects.[3]

To be fair to them, 6 years ago, it is not necessarily guaranteed that they knew what that meant.

Or simply that they learned over time that it doesn't work as well as one would initially believe when you first encounter it (my general experience).

If we want to see better, we should do our best to tell them what 'better' is, as OP has done. Go even further. Side-strafe and readjusting for AoE is stuff you can get in MineCraft, this is a passion project ambitious MMORPG, so we'll certainly see at least that.

Strevi

Azherae wrote: »

Strevi wrote: »

They said (6 years ago) this game will be

Utilizing new AI technology that hasn't been seen in other MMORPG projects.[3]

To be fair to them, 6 years ago, it is not necessarily guaranteed that they knew what that meant.

Or simply that they learned over time that it doesn't work as well as one would initially believe when you first encounter it (my general experience).

If we want to see better, we should do our best to tell them what 'better' is, as OP has done. Go even further. Side-strafe and readjusting for AoE is stuff you can get in MineCraft, this is a passion project ambitious MMORPG, so we'll certainly see at least that.

They knew they want to create hype.
They want that now too.
I have doubts that early hype is a good thing.

Azherae

Strevi wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Strevi wrote: »

They said (6 years ago) this game will be

Utilizing new AI technology that hasn't been seen in other MMORPG projects.[3]

To be fair to them, 6 years ago, it is not necessarily guaranteed that they knew what that meant.

Or simply that they learned over time that it doesn't work as well as one would initially believe when you first encounter it (my general experience).

If we want to see better, we should do our best to tell them what 'better' is, as OP has done. Go even further. Side-strafe and readjusting for AoE is stuff you can get in MineCraft, this is a passion project ambitious MMORPG, so we'll certainly see at least that.

They knew they want to create hype.
They want that now too.
I have doubts that early hype is a good thing.

Even if that is true.

Even if I take my friend's perspective that Steven is a Salesman first, trying to find out what product we want and hyping capability before intention.

I still believe that Steven Sharif truly wants us to have a good product, and has been learning and trying for years to achieve that. Mistakes will be made, and sometimes you can't hold people to their old ideals, that is the downside of their transparent development.

We're almost certainly sure to see a thread soon enough about the 'fact that you don't need every Archetype in a party' or something. I'm tempted to just make it first.

It does not take that much to hype MMORPG players, particularly not in the gaming landscape we are in now. No matter what Steven said back then, no matter what ideas he shared, it would have been 'hype'. And I for one don't believe that silence was the answer. Not even as someone who has lost most of their will to play this game.

Not even as someone who was brought in by the 'hype' and is now out thousands because it isn't going anywhere close to what I thought.

Because there's only so much Steven can do when faced with the compromises he must make between his vision of finally making a game where the players can see and give input, and protecting the interest in the finished product.

Everyone learns as they try to build these things. Hype man or not, Steven cannot be faulted for having to learn.

EDIT: Removed unnecessary Steven ping. "Healer" instincts kicked in too hard. Take care of him though, guys, if those instincts were RIGHT...

Strevi

Azherae wrote: »

Strevi wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Strevi wrote: »

They said (6 years ago) this game will be

Utilizing new AI technology that hasn't been seen in other MMORPG projects.[3]

To be fair to them, 6 years ago, it is not necessarily guaranteed that they knew what that meant.

Or simply that they learned over time that it doesn't work as well as one would initially believe when you first encounter it (my general experience).

If we want to see better, we should do our best to tell them what 'better' is, as OP has done. Go even further. Side-strafe and readjusting for AoE is stuff you can get in MineCraft, this is a passion project ambitious MMORPG, so we'll certainly see at least that.

They knew they want to create hype.
They want that now too.
I have doubts that early hype is a good thing.

Even if that is true.

Even if I take my friend's perspective that Steven is a Salesman first, trying to find out what product we want and hyping capability before intention.

I still believe that Steven Sharif truly wants us to have a good product, and has been learning and trying for years to achieve that. Mistakes will be made, and sometimes you can't hold people to their old ideals, that is the downside of their transparent development.

We're almost certainly sure to see a thread soon enough about the 'fact that you don't need every Archetype in a party' or something. I'm tempted to just make it first.

It does not take that much to hype MMORPG players, particularly not in the gaming landscape we are in now. No matter what Steven said back then, no matter what ideas he shared, it would have been 'hype'. And I for one don't believe that silence was the answer. Not even as someone who has lost most of their will to play this game.

Not even as someone who was brought in by the 'hype' and is now out thousands because it isn't going anywhere close to what I thought.

Because there's only so much Steven can do when faced with the compromises he must make between his vision of finally making a game where the players can see and give input, and protecting the interest in the finished product.

Everyone learns as they try to build these things. Hype man or not, Steven cannot be faulted for having to learn.

EDIT: Removed unnecessary Steven ping. "Healer" instincts kicked in too hard. Take care of him though, guys, if those instincts were RIGHT...

From the perspective of somebody who is afraid to fail, asking opinions in advance might be a good thing.
I still say that if you want to play and enjoy a good game, it is better if you are not the one giving the feedback.
Else, if you give the feedback, be prepared to feel as part of the development team (even if you are not) and be happy that other players will enjoy the game you helped creating.
Maybe you are different.
But I cannot enjoy a game at release which I know already.
Also if you get hyped and involved too much early, and you end up feeling as part of the development team, you will feel bad when they do not listen or they listen to other more vocal voices. Maybe to popular streamers.

Azherae

Strevi wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Strevi wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Strevi wrote: »

They said (6 years ago) this game will be

Utilizing new AI technology that hasn't been seen in other MMORPG projects.[3]

To be fair to them, 6 years ago, it is not necessarily guaranteed that they knew what that meant.

Or simply that they learned over time that it doesn't work as well as one would initially believe when you first encounter it (my general experience).

If we want to see better, we should do our best to tell them what 'better' is, as OP has done. Go even further. Side-strafe and readjusting for AoE is stuff you can get in MineCraft, this is a passion project ambitious MMORPG, so we'll certainly see at least that.

They knew they want to create hype.
They want that now too.
I have doubts that early hype is a good thing.

Even if that is true.

Even if I take my friend's perspective that Steven is a Salesman first, trying to find out what product we want and hyping capability before intention.

I still believe that Steven Sharif truly wants us to have a good product, and has been learning and trying for years to achieve that. Mistakes will be made, and sometimes you can't hold people to their old ideals, that is the downside of their transparent development.

We're almost certainly sure to see a thread soon enough about the 'fact that you don't need every Archetype in a party' or something. I'm tempted to just make it first.

It does not take that much to hype MMORPG players, particularly not in the gaming landscape we are in now. No matter what Steven said back then, no matter what ideas he shared, it would have been 'hype'. And I for one don't believe that silence was the answer. Not even as someone who has lost most of their will to play this game.

Not even as someone who was brought in by the 'hype' and is now out thousands because it isn't going anywhere close to what I thought.

Because there's only so much Steven can do when faced with the compromises he must make between his vision of finally making a game where the players can see and give input, and protecting the interest in the finished product.

Everyone learns as they try to build these things. Hype man or not, Steven cannot be faulted for having to learn.

EDIT: Removed unnecessary Steven ping. "Healer" instincts kicked in too hard. Take care of him though, guys, if those instincts were RIGHT...

From the perspective of somebody who is afraid to fail, asking opinions in advance might be a good thing.
I still say that if you want to play and enjoy a good game, it is better if you are not the one giving the feedback.
Else, if you give the feedback, be prepared to feel as part of the development team (even if you are not) and be happy that other players will enjoy the game you helped creating.
Maybe you are different.
But I cannot enjoy a game at release which I know already.
Also if you get hyped and involved too much early, and you end up feeling as part of the development team, you will feel bad when they do not listen or they listen to other more vocal voices. Maybe to popular streamers.

I want Steven to make his game.

I am used to being 'part of development teams' for projects where the chances of anyone listening to me is small. Sometimes that changes. I don't expect that here.

I can be happy in this case. I have done it before, and so, I suppose I have, in fact, learned to be different.

I don't really need Ashes to be fun for me. If I want a fun game for myself I'll usually just make it. I want Ashes to be fun for all the people who want, and will love, what Steven wants and loves.

But for all the gaps, where Steven doesn't know precisely what he wants, every voice counts, even if just as 'random chattering advisors to the Sandal Lord'.

So I will only feel bad if they go through all this, make mistakes that I warn them about, and because of those exact mistakes (which will probably be unprovable anyway) the game fails. That will be sad.

tl;dr don't worry about me. Worry about Steven.

Foggy

Ok I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees this problem. There is literally no sense of urgency during combat. It seems like players can just stand around and cycle their hotkeys on auto pilot, so long as they have a tank in the party. Even then, playing a tank seems boring, no? The players should be getting slapped around: thrown back, knocked on their ass, lit on fire, etc. I don't want to just be watching proc timers.

To me this is not what next-gen MMORPG should look like. I hate to say it but New World is doing combat well. You actually have to move around and cycle skills depending on the enemy. If I get knocked back by a big guy and I'm about to die, then I switch to my ranged offhand and kite. You know it's just basic things like this.

I see so much love and hard work going into this game, I would just hate to dig in and eventually get bored because of the combat.

Kilgharrah1

Foggy wrote: »

Ok I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees this problem. There is literally no sense of urgency during combat. It seems like players can just stand around and cycle their hotkeys on auto pilot, so long as they have a tank in the party. Even then, playing a tank seems boring, no? The players should be getting slapped around: thrown back, knocked on their ass, lit on fire, etc. I don't want to just be watching proc timers.

Maybe for bosses, but for basic mobs in low tier areas? That's just tedious.

Foggy wrote: »

To me this is not what next-gen MMORPG should look like. I hate to say it but New World is doing combat well. You actually have to move around and cycle skills depending on the enemy. If I get knocked back by a big guy and I'm about to die, then I switch to my ranged offhand and kite. You know it's just basic things like this.

I can see this when levelling up solo and running through the quests, but for mutations, you really want to pick one or the other (melee vs. ranged), and the tank should be holding aggro in all cases (if it's not the tank, it's the healer, and that's not a good situation). I know a guy who won't let dps into the lobby if they offhand a bow.

As a healer, I don't know what group content would require you to start kiting away from my aoe heals, unless the run is a shitshow already.

Spif

From what we saw in the tank preview and skills, there is going to be some chaos in multi-pulls. AE threat is hard, but single target threat is easy. I loved the comment "don't stand in the shield area, we're just going to get cleaved". That ability might need a rework.

Tanks don't seem to have a 100% taunt (could be a future ability though), and the higher threat abilities are on cooldowns and only one is AE.

Clerics are HPS limited by cooldowns, but limits to tank threat are also essentially limits to healing too. Or spec your cleric to offtank. I don't know if casting interrupts are a big thing in the game, that would limit cleric offtanking.

Ludullu

Spif wrote: »

From what we saw in the tank preview and skills, there is going to be some chaos in multi-pulls. AE threat is hard, but single target threat is easy. I loved the comment "don't stand in the shield area, we're just going to get cleaved". That ability might need a rework.

Except you gotta work hard for your single target threat, cause any dps or even healer class can outpace you in their threat gen.

But you know what's funny, that forcefield ability could work perfectly with that setup if the mob's attacks (even tab ones) could be stopped by it. The tank would have to move to their partymates in time and protect them. It would be a new way to play the tank and imo that would be amazing and way more fun that just sitting on your ass holding up a shield.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Spif wrote: »

From what we saw in the tank preview and skills, there is going to be some chaos in multi-pulls. AE threat is hard, but single target threat is easy. I loved the comment "don't stand in the shield area, we're just going to get cleaved". That ability might need a rework.

Except you gotta work hard for your single target threat, cause any dps or even healer class can outpace you in their threat gen.

But you know what's funny, that forcefield ability could work perfectly with that setup if the mob's attacks (even tab ones) could be stopped by it. The tank would have to move to their partymates in time and protect them. It would be a new way to play the tank and imo that would be amazing and way more fun that just sitting on your ass holding up a shield.

Well, if Taunts are coming later, maybe Cover is too?

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

Well, if Taunts are coming later, maybe Cover is too?

Yeah, that's a possibility. Everything is... coming later

I'm just curious when that "later" might come.

p.s. did you read my response in the "Guild bombing" thread? Or just didn't have anything to say on my idea?

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Well, if Taunts are coming later, maybe Cover is too?

Yeah, that's a possibility. Everything is... coming later I'm just curious when that "later" might come.

p.s. did you read my response in the "Guild bombing" thread? Or just didn't have anything to say on my idea?

Ah, sorry, right. I'm going through my 'Ashes Detox' phase right now.

Basically I don't care enough. I'll probably get to it though.

I figured JustVine would check it but I think she's doing the same. So expect any thoughts later.

That ability IS in L2 somewhere, right? I think of the 'Take hits for target behind you' as a common MMORPG thing, but it just occurred to me that just because all the games I played have it, doesn't mean L2 does.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

Ah, sorry, right. I'm going through my 'Ashes Detox' phase right now.

Basically I don't care enough. I'll probably get to it though.

I figured JustVine would check it but I think she's doing the same. So expect any thoughts later.

Oh, totally understandable considering that stream and the general mood around it.

Azherae wrote: »

That ability IS in L2 somewhere, right? I think of the 'Take hits for target behind you' as a common MMORPG thing, but it just occurred to me that just because all the games I played have it, doesn't mean L2 does.

Nope, L2 didn't have an ability like that. It was all just "agro or retarget the enemy onto you" and a super basic buff of "give your party a shitton of p./m. defense". In a later update they added a more dps-oriented buff to a few tanks, but that's about it.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Ah, sorry, right. I'm going through my 'Ashes Detox' phase right now.

Basically I don't care enough. I'll probably get to it though.

I figured JustVine would check it but I think she's doing the same. So expect any thoughts later.

Oh, totally understandable considering that stream and the general mood around it.

Azherae wrote: »

That ability IS in L2 somewhere, right? I think of the 'Take hits for target behind you' as a common MMORPG thing, but it just occurred to me that just because all the games I played have it, doesn't mean L2 does.

Nope, L2 didn't have an ability like that. It was all just "agro or retarget the enemy onto you" and a super basic buff of "give your party a shitton of p./m. defense". In a later update they added a more dps-oriented buff to a few tanks, but that's about it.

Ah, that ... explains some of the responses I've received on certain things recently, a bit more. Thank you.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

Ah, that ... explains some of the responses I've received on certain things recently, a bit more. Thank you.

AA might've had that maybe? I think it was more actiony than L2 so an ability like that could work better in that context. @JamesSunderland @Noaani did AA have a tank ability that redirected their partymates' dmg onto them? Or some kind of "shield wall" where dmg was mitigated if it passed through?

Azherae

Afaik AA explicitly does not have a related skill, but I'll be happy to be corrected and learn that it does.

You can use certain abilities in a similar way, but ...

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