NiKr wrote: » Obviously all the other mechanics would remain, but tank could still be doing more or at least doing different stuff than just keeping aggro with taunt skills.
Sathrago wrote: » The tank in a threat management scenario and a tank in a non-threat management scenario both playing optimally will play the exact same way. There is no change or extra mechanic for the tank. It's the dps and healers that are forced to engage with it. Their gameplay changes completely when they have to worry about doing too much damage/healing at the wrong time. This is the aspect I do not like and would prefer not to have.
Stalwart wrote: » I'm saying instead of adding the threat minigame, let the dps optimize their damage to their heart's content. Now that extra mechanic that was just a little too much for the devs to add to the raid is fine to add to the raid. I also don't see holding dps in every raid you do because of a base game mechanic as a "fun" mechanic.
NishUK wrote: » NO you don't understand! The DPS must be going at MAXIMUM CAPCITY!!! (Square Enix ROCK ON/electric MUSIC!) DON'T STOPPPP!!!!! (touches face) "owwww that hurts, another boil, it's so rough being a teenager again".
NiKr wrote: » Sathrago wrote: » The tank in a threat management scenario and a tank in a non-threat management scenario both playing optimally will play the exact same way. There is no change or extra mechanic for the tank. It's the dps and healers that are forced to engage with it. Their gameplay changes completely when they have to worry about doing too much damage/healing at the wrong time. This is the aspect I do not like and would prefer not to have. The forcefield from the showcase provides another style of gameplay. Instead of just taunting the mobs, the tank can protect others by absorbing the damage meant for them. Mob/boss atks could be treated as action/projectile-based and the tank would have to move to the aggroed partymate and protect them with abilities similar to that forcefield. Stalwart wrote: » I'm saying instead of adding the threat minigame, let the dps optimize their damage to their heart's content. Now that extra mechanic that was just a little too much for the devs to add to the raid is fine to add to the raid. I also don't see holding dps in every raid you do because of a base game mechanic as a "fun" mechanic. And I'm talking about a purely tank-related feature that has pretty much nothing to do with dps or whatever they're doing. Like, literally nothing has to change for any other class. The boss would just lose aggro more often and the tank would have to react to it by using protective abilities similar to the forcefield from the showcase.
Stalwart wrote: » Just seems like an unreliable mess with ppl complaining and no good way to know exactly what's going on under the hood.
NiKr wrote: » Stalwart wrote: » Just seems like an unreliable mess with ppl complaining and no good way to know exactly what's going on under the hood. That's why I think tanks should have a "link" with the boss that would tell them the next target of aggro (not purely threat-based), with maybe a second or two to react. The tank would need to communicate with the rest of the party and the dps could adjust to the movement of the boss. In other words, I just want something new rather than holding the boss in one place and waiting till dps do their job. I'm also thinking about it from the tank's perspective because I'm gonna be a tank and I want this kind of gameplay rather than the classic taunting.
NiKr wrote: » NishUK wrote: » NO you don't understand! The DPS must be going at MAXIMUM CAPCITY!!! (Square Enix ROCK ON/electric MUSIC!) DON'T STOPPPP!!!!! (touches face) "owwww that hurts, another boil, it's so rough being a teenager again". You seemed like a reasonable person before. I guess my assumption was wrong. You comments lately come off way too trolly and pointless.
NishUK wrote: » NiKr wrote: » NishUK wrote: » NO you don't understand! The DPS must be going at MAXIMUM CAPCITY!!! (Square Enix ROCK ON/electric MUSIC!) DON'T STOPPPP!!!!! (touches face) "owwww that hurts, another boil, it's so rough being a teenager again". You seemed like a reasonable person before. I guess my assumption was wrong. You comments lately come off way too trolly and pointless. If you want a serious discussion with someone with the inability, currently of not having an open mind and inability to question their perceptions and feelings from playing a game they gotten addicted in some shape or form you go right ahead... My tactic is to make them look silly, yours is to keep poking in when they're stubbornly telling you "nah". This is the kind of back and for you forum dwellers love anyway so I hope you don't reply, I prefer sticking to the topic and jokes do help additionally make the world go round and make people think again, you should try it yourself sometime.
Stalwart wrote: » That would be better than nothing but I'd still much rather they add engaging boss mechanics that don't let you just hold it in one place than a taunting minigame. I think it will get old fast as a base game mechanic.
Stalwart wrote: » At least you can acknowledge there are other points of view.
NishUK wrote: » Stalwart wrote: » At least you can acknowledge there are other points of view. Other points of view that are completely disconnected from the needs of the many and the basis entirely being off of personal preference alone or some skewed perspective of everyone loves FF14 when not taking into the account the average age and average activity of participants in game and many other much popular gaming genres. Also no need to quote me entirely if you're just going to do a drive by post approach, just @ will do, saves the height of the forum
Sathrago wrote: » Why do you guys keep ignoring that Im advocating for more mechanics in fights? Just because a dps doesnt have to worry about threat doesn't mean they suddenly stop moving, roll their face on the keyboard and forget everything else. That's ridiculous and not engaging with what I am saying.
Sathrago wrote: » NiKr wrote: » It's the dps and healers that are forced to engage with it. Their gameplay changes completely when they have to worry about doing too much damage/healing at the wrong time. This is the aspect I do not like and would prefer not to have. This is a thing called Risk/Reward you just don't want difficulty, you want ez mode with this statement. Go back and play your FF14 joke of an mmo.
NiKr wrote: » It's the dps and healers that are forced to engage with it. Their gameplay changes completely when they have to worry about doing too much damage/healing at the wrong time. This is the aspect I do not like and would prefer not to have.
NishUK This is the kind of back and for you forum dwellers love anyway so I hope you don't reply, I prefer sticking to the topic and jokes do help additionally make the world go round and make people think again, you should try it yourself sometime.
novercalis wrote: » Sathrago wrote: » Why do you guys keep ignoring that Im advocating for more mechanics in fights? Just because a dps doesnt have to worry about threat doesn't mean they suddenly stop moving, roll their face on the keyboard and forget everything else. That's ridiculous and not engaging with what I am saying. we agree with other mechanics WITH THREAT attached to it. Ignoring the DPS facerolling keyboard - you got the tank then who is just gonna zone out as he faceroll cause he's never going to worry about losing aggro. BORING gameplay. You know what keeps tank mains playing - trying to keep everyone alive. So, also put yourself in their shoes too. Im the cleric - sure my focus is to keep tank up, but if all my gameplay is just me having to hit F2 once then spam heal... Zzzzzz Now I see chaos, dps pulling threat, putting me in danger of pulling threat too - I am excited, my blood is racing, my heart is pumping - give me that dopamine.
novercalis wrote: » There are many games with fun engaging raids that do have a threat minigame. I don't see the justification. Having to see dps go BRRRRRRRRRRR while your tank can keep control of the fight is the most boring outcome I see. Sorry - you and I are not gonna see eye to eye. I enjoy slow pace, I enjoy people working TOGETHER, knowing when to go 0-100 and when to go 50%. I enjoy battles where the tempo is different. Sorry, you're just a bad DPSer cause you dont know how to pace yourself. That's all i am hearing. You, we also got a thing called XP Debt. A mechanics that needs to be hanging over everyone head at all times. Meaning - if you pull threat, you die and if you die, you incur XP debt and it will take even longer to hit the next level. This threat needs to feel real. How does it feel real? Threat "minigame" as you call it. Instead of busting a nut in 10 seconds, maybe pace yourself, learn the encounter of when to go full throttle and when to slow down with some foreplay. It's a game, to be in constant engaged in from all angles, not a DPS meter simulator game. actually fuck it - it's not even DPS, it should be DPM
novercalis wrote: » Says the person who joined in 2021 with over 300 comments. Go upstairs and go to bed and hopefully tomorrow morning, when your all sober, you won't say silly things, outside of dunking Jahlon's butt. Like im not even against you on other posts but lately, you sound drunk AF and posting weird. go have a kit kat
NishUK wrote: » Last post now.
Sathrago wrote: » pgt1027 wrote: » I disagree with this. Firstly, I don't think PvE in MMORPGs should be a DPS race. If there's no chance for the tank to lose aggro and all mobs stick to him like glue no matter what happens so long as he isn't asleep, then PvE becomes just that, a DPS race. I think threat serving as a soft cap for DPS and healing is a good thing because it discourages min-maxing. All pve and pvp in the existence of infinity are a dps race in some form or manner. More mechanical things for players to engage with will not change that. People need to get the idea of removing or discouraging min-maxxing out of their heads. It's here to stay, people will do it with the smallest of advantages. If I want to build a glass cannon with no CC that's my decision to make and apart of the freedom a game like this is trying to promote with its (supposedly) vibrant class customization system. Secondly, the chance for the tank to lose aggro provides an element of chaos into PvE encounters and its this element of chaos that keeps content fresher longer. I don't want all PvE encounters to be a sure thing that goes the same way every time. Threat should be more than just the mechanic that makes every enemy in a five mile radius stick to the tank like glue so the DPS is free to AoE the trash stacks, it should give depth to encounters and variation in experiences with the same encounters. If you want more depth and variation in encounters, why are you advocating for the same mechanic in every single encounter? I agree with depth and variation, I just don't think threat is the best way to do that when we have so many new and interesting ways that we could use to make the fights fun and engaging. I dislike threat management as one of those tools. Sorry. In addition, threat being an actual mechanic that has to be managed is an opportunity to use crowd controls, and crowd controls are something that, once again, can add variation and chaos to PvE encounters. Again, threat isn't needed for this. A group of high damage mobs can require CC because the tank will die, or one of them might have a mechanic that stuns the healer or sleeps a dps. Or perhaps it has a negative healing debuff it can throw on the tank. All of these are things that you would want to use CC for and no threat is involved in that equation. Lastly, I don't really think the game should center entirely around preset rotations that you memorize like a game of Simon Says. I think the mechanics should have more depth than just pressing 10 buttons that all do the same thing in the right order. PvE content with solid mechanics shouldn't need to revolve around doing "rotations." Modern MMOs only started having their games revolve around "rotation" gameplay because they stripped the actual mechanics out. Mechanics like threat. The game will have rotations. Players will find certain skill combinations and use them as a rotation. The big bad meta as you would call it. This is something unavoidable unless you literally randomize all skill values and remove all comboing skills/abilities. So you can have either slot machine skills or player chosen rotations that are optimally chosen and popularized. This doesn't mean everyone plays the meta either. I don't, that's for sure. I play thematic characters as best I can. And for that character i find the best skills that thematically fit my character and do my role the best. Thus a non-meta rotation was born for my character.
pgt1027 wrote: » I disagree with this. Firstly, I don't think PvE in MMORPGs should be a DPS race. If there's no chance for the tank to lose aggro and all mobs stick to him like glue no matter what happens so long as he isn't asleep, then PvE becomes just that, a DPS race. I think threat serving as a soft cap for DPS and healing is a good thing because it discourages min-maxing.
Secondly, the chance for the tank to lose aggro provides an element of chaos into PvE encounters and its this element of chaos that keeps content fresher longer. I don't want all PvE encounters to be a sure thing that goes the same way every time. Threat should be more than just the mechanic that makes every enemy in a five mile radius stick to the tank like glue so the DPS is free to AoE the trash stacks, it should give depth to encounters and variation in experiences with the same encounters.
In addition, threat being an actual mechanic that has to be managed is an opportunity to use crowd controls, and crowd controls are something that, once again, can add variation and chaos to PvE encounters.
Lastly, I don't really think the game should center entirely around preset rotations that you memorize like a game of Simon Says. I think the mechanics should have more depth than just pressing 10 buttons that all do the same thing in the right order. PvE content with solid mechanics shouldn't need to revolve around doing "rotations." Modern MMOs only started having their games revolve around "rotation" gameplay because they stripped the actual mechanics out. Mechanics like threat.
