Threat management is not fun. For anyone.(Derailed, Discuss MMOs instead)

Look, I understand its a classic way to do threat, but in my honest opinion I believe it just makes the game less fun. All of a sudden good dps players are not good because they do their rotations properly and do high damage, they are now "good" because they know when to not attack. This is silly, If you were to reverse it, it would be like ok tank, the only way to hold aggro is to stand there and hold block.

Halting actions in combat for this sort of reason makes it clunky and a chaotic mess when you have both a good damage dealer or a bad tank. Now, if tanks did their rotation and never lost aggro, the only time they would lose it is if they were not performing optimally. In that case, you either work with your tank to get better or find another one. The entire party is not punished as much as if dps accidentally throws one more global than normal of their rotation and now the group wipes.

So in the end I would suggest the threat system be tied to how well the tank performs, not how well the healer and dps are at not doing their job.

Edit: to clarify I do not mean that dps and healers no longer generate threat, I just think that if a tank is doing their rotations properly (I.E. Playing good), they should not lose aggro. The exceptions to this would be major level and gear disparities.

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Voeltz

Some people seem to have this idea that MMOs would be better off without threat. There are reasons why it's been around so long and it's not just because it's familiar to the MMO playerbase. Without threat, tanks have no way to hold agro for their group. Without being able to hold agro, the tank class is worthless in PvE. Without dedicated tanks, there's no trinity and the rest of the game is in shambles. Threat exists so tanks have a way to keep enemies attacking them while building fully into defensive stats. Otherwise dps classes with the highest damage output would be targeted 100% of the time and the tanks would be completely ignored.

While threat is not the perfect system in it's current form, or the most exciting historically speaking, there are many ways it could be improved and there's never been a better time for it. It requires more sophisticated, smarter AI that calculate threat as an equation and not just an invisible number. It requires AI to be lethal if the right actions are not taken to avoid or mitigate damage with evasive and/or defensive abilities for all players involved. Mechanics should be a factor in fights that have the potential to ignore threat, targeting specific party members or hard switching targets and using abilities on them instead.

Threat should be calculated on each individuals total combined damage, heals, buffs, and debuffs so any type of class could be targeted no matter their playstyle or kind of contribution. Then line of sight and distance from the target. Threat would lose it's effect while you are outside an enemies field of view and/or further away. Each type of enemy should also apply threat multipliers based on your class/race. Some might go out of their way to attack mages, while others hate elves.

All of this would create memorable and exciting gameplay, and open the door for unique encounters.

Ludullu

Voeltz wrote: »

Some people seem to have this idea that MMOs would be better off without threat. There are reasons why it's been around so long and it's not just because it's familiar to the MMO playerbase. Without threat, tanks have no way to hold agro for their group. Without being able to hold agro, the tank class is worthless in PvE. Without dedicated tanks, there's no trinity and the rest of the game is in shambles. Threat exists so tanks have a way to keep enemies attacking them while building fully into defensive stats. Otherwise dps classes with the highest damage output would be targeted 100% of the time and the tanks would be completely ignored.

What if the tank could instead prevent their partymates from taking damage by standing between the boss and the target? That would still be tanking, that would still serve the same goal of absorbing the dmg that could kill others, that would still support a tanky build on your character - but it wouldn't just rely on threat mechanics.

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

Voeltz wrote: »

Some people seem to have this idea that MMOs would be better off without threat. There are reasons why it's been around so long and it's not just because it's familiar to the MMO playerbase. Without threat, tanks have no way to hold agro for their group. Without being able to hold agro, the tank class is worthless in PvE. Without dedicated tanks, there's no trinity and the rest of the game is in shambles. Threat exists so tanks have a way to keep enemies attacking them while building fully into defensive stats. Otherwise dps classes with the highest damage output would be targeted 100% of the time and the tanks would be completely ignored.

What if the tank could instead prevent their partymates from taking damage by standing between the boss and the target? That would still be tanking, that would still serve the same goal of absorbing the dmg that could kill others, that would still support a tanky build on your character - but it wouldn't just rely on threat mechanics.

It would require the entire game be built in tight corridors.

Purely block based tanking doesn't really work in wide open space.

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

It would require the entire game be built in tight corridors.

Purely block based tanking doesn't really work in wide open space.

I mean, a ton of top lvl content will already be happening in dungeons, so there's your enclosed limited spaces.

And giving tank a buff or a synergistic mechanic that works off of the number of "protects" you did. So the tank would not only simply tank in the party, but would also support the dps or healing or whatever. And it could be skill-based, if Intrepid add enough varying protective abilities and proper mob/boss mechanics to utilize them.

I just think that tank can be made more interesting, even outside of the basic boss mechanics of "dodge this red color on the floor or use this ultra defensive ability at this particular time".

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

I mean, a ton of top lvl content will already be happening in dungeons, so there's your enclosed limited spaces.

Yeah, but not all.

A game where you are relying on body blocking for tanking would require all content to be in corridors.

Also, for the most part, bosses in dungeons are in rooms, not corridors. Large rooms, at that.

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

A game where you are relying on body blocking for tanking would require all content to be in corridors.

Also, for the most part, bosses in dungeons are in rooms, not corridors. Large rooms, at that.

Environmental hazards within the maximum range of rangers and mages + directional boss aoes = people needing a protection from that dmg. Currently most games would just give you a small spot to stand on where the hazards won't appear or where the boss won't hit. But what if on top of that the tank could also just provide a protection for the person standing "in the red".

Obviously this would have to be properly balanced with CDs and protective strengths, so that tanks wouldn't just permaprotect some dps who'd constantly put out 100% of their power, but still.

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

A game where you are relying on body blocking for tanking would require all content to be in corridors.

Also, for the most part, bosses in dungeons are in rooms, not corridors. Large rooms, at that.

Environmental hazards within the maximum range of rangers and mages + directional boss aoes = people needing a protection from that dmg. Currently most games would just give you a small spot to stand on where the hazards won't appear or where the boss won't hit. But what if on top of that the tank could also just provide a protection for the person standing "in the red".

Obviously this would have to be properly balanced with CDs and protective strengths, so that tanks wouldn't just permaprotect some dps who'd constantly put out 100% of their power, but still.

I mean, you are basically saying "lets take aspects of bards and healers and give it to tanks, just because".

Tanks should have "oh shit!" buttons. Healers and support should have abilities that are used in a pre-meditated manner.

If you are giving tanks these abilities that are more than "oh shit!" abilities, you are encroaching on the role of healers and tanks.

I don't really get what the point of trying to take aspects from one role and give it to another role actually is. Sure, you are potentially making the tank role a little more interesting, but at the expense of the healer and support role.

Surely the better way to make the tank role more interesting would be via the games content, not via cannibalizing other roles.

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

I mean, you are basically saying "lets take aspects of bards and healers and give it to tanks, just because".

Tanks should have "oh shit!" buttons. Healers and support should have abilities that are used in a pre-meditated manner.

What I'm suggesting would be those exact "oh shit" buttons. They'd just be used more often than once or twice a farm.

And tank/healer will already have aspects of a healer. And tank/bard will have aspects of a bard. This is why I'm saying that Intrepid could try smth new with the archetype. When the lines are blurred - it's the perfect time to push those lines further.

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

I mean, you are basically saying "lets take aspects of bards and healers and give it to tanks, just because".

Tanks should have "oh shit!" buttons. Healers and support should have abilities that are used in a pre-meditated manner.

What I'm suggesting would be those exact "oh shit" buttons. They'd just be used more often than once or twice a farm.

If an ability can be used more than once an hour, it isn't an "oh shit!" button. Ideally, once every two or three hours.

If you can use it every 15 minutes, it becomes a fairly standard part of your gameplay, and makes the game too easy. People you are grouping with will come to expect you use your "oh shit!" button to cover up their mistakes.

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

If an ability can be used more than once an hour, it isn't an "oh shit!" button. Ideally, once every two or three hours.

If you can use it every 15 minutes, it becomes a fairly standard part of your gameplay, and makes the game too easy. People you are grouping with will come to expect you use your "oh shit!" button to cover up their mistakes.

But isn't "covering up each other's mistakes" the point of group content? At least until everyone can play as perfectly as possible.

But either way, I think we just have differing views on how the pve interactions should be designed so I'm not sure if we'll come to a consensus on this particular topic. And Intrepid have obviously not shown any real indication of what their tank will end up being. Cause ooooh boi that showcase definitely did not show good tanking, let alone AI that would require good tanking.

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

But isn't "covering up each other's mistakes" the point of group content? At least until everyone can play as perfectly as possible.

Yeah, just not with one button - and not that often.

Ace1234

@Noaani

I'm not sure I follow.

Games with threat mechanics (even basic threat mechanics) still require positioning, timing, general awareness, all of the things you are talking about here.

In a hypothetical sense, I understand and even agree with you that games where tanks don't have to put some major thought in to positioning, timing or awareness would suck. The thing is, I've not seen a game where a tank doesn't need to think about these things, regardless of threat mechanics.

I get you, im not necessarily saying you "can't" have combat skill and threat coexist- im just saying the standard design of how aggro works (enemies have a consistent way of positioning themselves toward the tank) detracts from combat skill in the situations when aggro is active. So you can still have a lot of skill in combat otherwise, but in those situations it detracts from that, in favor of managing threat to retain that aggro. This is just simply because rather than you having to reposition to counter the postioning of the enemy, they position themselved in a predictable manner when the aggro happens (generally speaking)- so you don't really have to reposition or do a lot of these skills that you normally would have to do if you weren't manipulating the AI, compared to the alternative of having tools to counter/adapt to a situation the AI creates. Things like using movement to get in between the enemy and dps, or knocking the enemy away from the team, then having to reposition your team's formation, etc., rather than getting aggro and having the AI do all the work for you. These are all ways where you can "be the target and have control over the battlefield" but in a more engaging way (imo) than simply managing AI manipulation, compared to managing threat in those situations.

Ruerik

novercalis wrote: »

apparently FF14 from what I've read. Some tank can do something a few times and then stop doing anything and he will still have threat for the next 10 min.
paraphrasing

It is that way now, since the tank nerf.
Before the nerf, you had to worry about single target threat, aoe threat. DPS had cooldowns to manage their own threat, rogues could reduce threat of an ally or increase threat of the tank. Healers spamming overheals would pull off a tank no matter how good the tank was.

Then there was the nerf. Now DPS just do their rotations and dont stand in fire. The tank can do a couple damage combos on stuff and then go afk in between mechanics once he has things where he wants them.

FF14 is an example of a game that had the perfect amount of complexity as a MMO, but because it was too hard for the RPG fanbase that the IP brought with it, every expansion reduces more and more complexity for every role.

Ashes is a new universe, very likely the majority of people coming here is expecting to come into a MMO, not a single player game.

I am hoping we are presented with a next gen MMO, with good gameplay systems, not watered down repeat content that is in every other game, only slap Ashes artwork on top of it. We deserve better than that, and Intrepid has the passion and vision to bring it to us also.

Strevi

Sathrago wrote: »

So in the end I would suggest the threat system be tied to how well the tank performs, not how well the healer and dps are at not doing their job.

As a healer I want to have the option to cast a full heal and to risk attracting agro upon me.
If the tank is ok compared to the npc levels we fight, then I have no reason to be concerned.
Else the moment such a full heal is cast will be important.
Can also be that either the tank or the healer dies and then the rest of the team. I have no problem if the team fails this way 30 sec later.

Arugan

As a Tank from the inception of MMORPG to the current MMROPG. I too agree that Threat management is not fun. I am not saying remove threat management.

I am saying:
1. Make it reasonable, Hard content has a hard time maintaining and regaining threat. But if you do it properly and 90% of the moves are done right. You shouldn't lose agro.
2. Introduce more mechanics. Threat mechanic shouldnt be the only thing going for a tank. Have blocking mechanics, mitigation mechanisms, and survival staying alive mechanics.

Example:
- Blocking at the right time in Valheim. Which if you do it right, it's rewarding not only in entertainment but you prevented more dmg or even causing stagger. If done wrong then you get smacked hard.
- Smite has tons and tons of mitigation mechanics (ice walls, stone walls, giving allys shields etc..) Which is awesome if done right you just blocked some one from escaping or doing dmg. If done wrong then you just blocked your team from doing dmg or running away.
- Survival Mechanics. Boosting your armor but doing less dmg. Or boosting armor but going slower etc..

Noaani

Ace1234 wrote: »

Noaani

I'm not sure I follow.

Games with threat mechanics (even basic threat mechanics) still require positioning, timing, general awareness, all of the things you are talking about here.

In a hypothetical sense, I understand and even agree with you that games where tanks don't have to put some major thought in to positioning, timing or awareness would suck. The thing is, I've not seen a game where a tank doesn't need to think about these things, regardless of threat mechanics.

I get you, im not necessarily saying you "can't" have combat skill and threat coexist- im just saying the standard design of how aggro works (enemies have a consistent way of positioning themselves toward the tank) detracts from combat skill in the situations when aggro is active. So you can still have a lot of skill in combat otherwise, but in those situations it detracts from that, in favor of managing threat to retain that aggro. This is just simply because rather than you having to reposition to counter the postioning of the enemy, they position themselved in a predictable manner when the aggro happens (generally speaking)- so you don't really have to reposition or do a lot of these skills that you normally would have to do if you weren't manipulating the AI, compared to the alternative of having tools to counter/adapt to a situation the AI creates. Things like using movement to get in between the enemy and dps, or knocking the enemy away from the team, then having to reposition your team's formation, etc., rather than getting aggro and having the AI do all the work for you. These are all ways where you can "be the target and have control over the battlefield" but in a more engaging way (imo) than simply managing AI manipulation, compared to managing threat in those situations.

I don't know what games it is you are playing, or what content in those games, but this seems like a niche issue within those games and that content.

Every game I have played has had many top end encounters where the tank has to reposition the mob, for various reasons.

Again, I think your issue here is with the design of a specific game, or a specific type of content. If you are only playing low to mid tier content - even if across many games - you won't come across advanced mechanics like this.

Ace1234

@Noaani

I don't know what games it is you are playing, or what content in those games, but this seems like a niche issue within those games and that content.

Every game I have played has had many top end encounters where the tank has to reposition the mob, for various reasons.

Again, I think your issue here is with the design of a specific game, or a specific type of content. If you are only playing low to mid tier content - even if across many games - you won't come across advanced mechanics like this.

Yeah it is more of a niche issue as you said. I understand and agree that this issue can be mitigated depending on how the specific game handles aggro/threat- but I am talking more from a "best case scenario" and design philosphy, based on my preferences rather than referencing specific games' versions of threat management- in which case I personally would rather double down on situational awareness/adaptation skill-checks, instead of detracting from that through aggro/threat management (even if it only detracts to a minor extent and the system is handled/designed well in its own right). So depending on how Ashes takes threat management it could either be a major or minor issue for me, but my feedback is that I would still like to see an improvement in that regard based on my preferences.

When I say "detracts from it", im referring to the best possible implementation of a "CC" style aggro, due to the inherent implications of how that affects positioning/spacial awareness/timing skill-checks in those situations, compared to more "movement and counterplay heavy" systems that don't allow for AI manipulation

Noaani

Ace1234 wrote: »

I personally would rather double down on situational awareness

I don't actually get what threat management has to do with situational awareness in this regard.

Situational awareness is - at least in my opinion - entirely about preventing unwanted adds. You maintain an awareness of your surrounding in order to prevent this from happening.

This means the determining factors for it are how many mobs there are in the are, what their respawn is, how many of them roam, and how long their aggro range is. These are all factors that are 100% determined by the content designer, not the class or combat system designer.

The moment a mob is identified as becoming an unwanted add, situational awareness is over and it is now time to take action. Sure, threat management comes in to play now, but situational awareness stops when threat management starts (in relation to these adds).

I agree situational awareness should be an important skill for a tank (or a CC class, who would take over this role from a tank if present), I just don't understand how it relates at all to threat management. From what I can see, altering threat management will have literally zero impact on the importance of situational awareness.

Ace1234

@Noaani

I don't actually get what threat management has to do with situational awareness in this regard.

I meant situational awareness in terms of the combat skills are i was referring too- So yeah threat management can still require situational awareness- I should have said "I personally would rather double down on skill-checks relating to more combat oriented skills like positioning/spacial awareness/timing/etc. rather than potentially detract from those things by implementing AI manipulation CC skills"- i thought that was implied when put into the context of my point, but I may have worded it confusingly.

pgt1027

Arugan wrote: »

As a Tank from the inception of MMORPG to the current MMROPG. I too agree that Threat management is not fun. I am not saying remove threat management.

I am saying:
1. Make it reasonable, Hard content has a hard time maintaining and regaining threat. But if you do it properly and 90% of the moves are done right. You shouldn't lose agro.
2. Introduce more mechanics. Threat mechanic shouldnt be the only thing going for a tank. Have blocking mechanics, mitigation mechanisms, and survival staying alive mechanics.

Example:
- Blocking at the right time in Valheim. Which if you do it right, it's rewarding not only in entertainment but you prevented more dmg or even causing stagger. If done wrong then you get smacked hard.
- Smite has tons and tons of mitigation mechanics (ice walls, stone walls, giving allys shields etc..) Which is awesome if done right you just blocked some one from escaping or doing dmg. If done wrong then you just blocked your team from doing dmg or running away.
- Survival Mechanics. Boosting your armor but doing less dmg. Or boosting armor but going slower etc..

I agree that there should be more to tanking than just threat, but in my experience getting rid of threat management as an active mechanic isn't done to make tanking or the group experience more complicated or in-depth in other ways, it's just done to simplify and dumb down content.

This was even suggested by the OP and the people in this thread. They don't want to get rid of threat to let some deeper mechanic flourish, they want to get rid of threat so they can go ham on damage dealing without having to worry about pulling aggro.

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