Splinter Topic: Mob Leashing And Aggro

From a conversation in another thread, as usual.

Right now as of the shown flow in the Tank update, Mob Leashing seems to be short ENOUGH that you can outrange mobs within their own area. Whether this is a default or not is unclear from the content, but there has been a concern raised that this will lower difficulty and challenge if it remains as it is.

A relatively populated area would require players to run away in the right direction to avoid getting more mobs on them, but if one could realistically just 'keep running' until a safe area is reached, this may not matter.

Since I generally only play games with no leash of this type (my main game switched from 'no leash at all, the entire zone will chase you', to 'if you do manage to get away, the mob just fades after a bit and cannot easily aggro others', and BDO is BDO), I can't claim to understand why this is implemented in this way at all other than to make the game easier, as pointed out.

Do you perceive this as a problem, or is the effect on difficulty something you either don't experience, or believe should be in the game?

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Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

Since this is entirely up to Devs in terms of paths (how many paths they give you with no Mob B-E, so you can escape from Mob A), and I generally don't seem to play games where players have meaningfully higher movespeed than Mobs, or easy retreat paths, the idea is a bit foreign to me.

tl;dr as soon as leashes aren't short in an even slightly enclosed space, my experience is that trying to run from Mob A will eventually end SOMEWHERE with Mobs W-Z killing you, and I can see why a fully open world game generally wants to have SOME leash.

This is why I think that some triggers for a more frequent use of slowing/rooting abilities by the mobs would help quite a bit. And it would feel a bit more active than just a "mob runs after you until it gets in range of an attack" situation.

Also, if there is a leash, should it be a location one or a player one, or a combination of both? I'd personally prefer a location leash (not just a spawn point, but a whole location) with no player leash, so that fleeing players gotta leave a location completely because all those A-Z mobs will run after them until they do.

Though this would definitely lead to aoe farming, so there'd probably have to be some AI coding against that or some other ways of making it not a super optimal way to play.

novercalis

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Though this would definitely lead to aoe farming, so there'd probably have to be some AI coding against that or some other ways of making it not a super optimal way to play.

this can be prevented with mob abilities. This is an issue in EQ p99, never happened in retail or was rarely a thing, so the dev didnt patch it to prevent such things but the easy solution to aoe farms can be:

AOE related spells are channel spells, a single point of damage will interrupt your spell. Mana consumption for AOE spells is HUGE. If the channel spell is 2 seconds, 5 seconds or 10 seconds and gets interrupted, you still lose ALL OF THAT MANA.

Now with that said - Sprinkle mobs with Range capability. Shooting arrow, throwing boulder that leads to a stun / prone, gap closers such as charge, root, fast spell casting with large range.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Since this is entirely up to Devs in terms of paths (how many paths they give you with no Mob B-E, so you can escape from Mob A), and I generally don't seem to play games where players have meaningfully higher movespeed than Mobs, or easy retreat paths, the idea is a bit foreign to me.

tl;dr as soon as leashes aren't short in an even slightly enclosed space, my experience is that trying to run from Mob A will eventually end SOMEWHERE with Mobs W-Z killing you, and I can see why a fully open world game generally wants to have SOME leash.

This is why I think that some triggers for a more frequent use of slowing/rooting abilities by the mobs would help quite a bit. And it would feel a bit more active than just a "mob runs after you until it gets in range of an attack" situation.

Also, if there is a leash, should it be a location one or a player one, or a combination of both? I'd personally prefer a location leash (not just a spawn point, but a whole location) with no player leash, so that fleeing players gotta leave a location completely because all those A-Z mobs will run after them until they do.

Though this would definitely lead to aoe farming, so there'd probably have to be some AI coding against that or some other ways of making it not a super optimal way to play.

I am not going to try to convince people of the 'strong single enemies, no easy AoE farm in this game!', but that's my only experience with it.

AoE farm requires 'an entire group of mobs that you can AoE down before they kill either you or whoever is protecting you', and this exp still has to be decent, right?

I definitely have played games like that, but they were usually very action-y, and instanced-dungeon so leashes mattered minimally. Other games I play, even BDO at the more 'fun' camps, if you plan to 'AoE farm' you had better be EXTREMELY prepared for that or you will die.

Songcaller

Not sure why there is an issue with aoe farming. There won't be enough quests to hit max level which means the groups need somewhere to grind too.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

AoE farm requires 'an entire group of mobs that you can AoE down before they kill either you or whoever is protecting you', and this exp still has to be decent, right?

I mean, unless the mobs will be several times (or maybe even several dozen times) harder than the ones from tank showcase - I'd imagine a ranger/tank could build up enough threat on a group of mobs while successfully kiting them to let some mages aoe those mobs down.

We'll obviously have to see how viable that'll be once we get to the mob balancing stage, but I do think there's a chance that it's gonna be possible.

Neurath wrote: »

Not sure why there is an issue with aoe farming. There won't be enough quests to hit max level which means the groups need somewhere to grind too.

My main concern with aoe farming is one party overtaking several spawn spots. And if mobs are supposed to be thick and with longer respawns, then that party might get even more mobs under them.

But as I said before and as Azherae pointed out, most mobs should be difficult enough to just not be aoe-farmable. And those groups should just have proper mobs to occupy them.

Songcaller

But you will drive all the groups to the solo spots and the soloers will be screwed. The majority of the player base will never see this discussion and are used to aoe farms. They will aoe farm wherever it is viable.

Azherae

For clarity I have no issues with the concept of AoE farming, it's a 'skill', designers usually can decide how difficult or easy they want that to be based on mob density, mob power, and the power of AoE abilities.

I have an issue with the idea that in a game where things should supposedly be difficult, difficult enough that you even care what your team composition is when you enter an area, AoE farming wouldn't require either extreme skill, or wouldn't reward little exp (and I have experienced games where the latter is still not enough because they have good drops or whatever).

I really don't think Ashes is going to mess this up by accident, these people have been playing MMOs for years. The fact that a few of them have played one where this was a thing for a bit, isn't a negative, it was very popular, so many people would have.

EDIT: Fixed a double-negative, gotta get back to speaking English after being in the lang-code mines today.

Ludullu

Neurath wrote: »

But you will drive all the groups to the solo spots and the soloers will be screwed. The majority of the player base will never see this discussion and are used to aoe farms. They will aoe farm wherever it is viable.

Party mobs should be difficult enough for solos to die almost immediately against them, or at least struggle immensely, so I don't think that'd be a problem.

Songcaller

The idea is that all pve should be difficult. The mobs should cc and force players to move. Once you conquer this in solo play it can be replicated in group play thus whatever measures you think are required to prevent the process will only make those who conquer the process to leap even further ahead.

Strevi

novercalis wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

No Leash is just stupid. I can't think of many (any?) creatures that would carry on chasing you forever, leaving their home and familiar environment to use all its energy just to hunt you down cos it happened to see you nearby. That's just not how it works. There's always a point at which the effort involved in the chase outweighs the benefits of a successful capture.

personally find it fun and left many memorable moments. Granted we had "Zones" so it wasnt infinite but some maps, from point A to point B can take you 20-30 mins to run.

So in EQ, first day playing on release, I rolled a wood elf and my friend rolled a dwarf. Our other friend was a human and we wanted to go meet up with him. I needed to run to Butcherblock, got there safely. Now entering to Butcher Block, I needed to run to the Dwarf city, which is approx 10 minute of running. I am level 1, I end up pulling a orc centurion. I am now lost, we don't have a MAP, I had this MFer chase me for 5 minutes while I am trying to find safety and a place where I can die and hopefully find my body. I was on the phone with my friend, screaming and freaking out. Then I learned how brutal this game was, with no map, and now I have skeletons around my corpse - took me 1-2 hours to recover and finally got to my friend. Then we learned about the boat ride and religion choice matter in Freeport.. RIP

we got fond memories being chased around throughout our entire EQ sessions.

So at the very least, Some mobs should chase you until you leave it's node, others up to exiting a dungeon or their controlled area, like the KEEP in the video. You should not have a sense of safety anywhere.

novercalis

Neurath wrote: »

Not sure why there is an issue with aoe farming. There won't be enough quests to hit max level which means the groups need somewhere to grind too.

it cheapens the experience. fuck aoe farm. Also will end up being a meta in which it screws over soo many players too

Classic WoW - lots of people got screwed over in their 30s when people started doing Scarlett Monastery. If you weren't a mage, healer, Tank - you weren't allowed into a group.

now imagine that, there won't be enough quest to hit max level? correct! but there won't be any tanks and healers for other players to grind together with either.

It's also braindead gameplay.

I am not trying to eliminate the ability to aoe farm, but simply creating mechanics that can fuck up aoe farms. So if your able to pull it off, cool. Risk/Reward - cause it should not be easy to do and there should be plenty of death happen for you to consider, "am I breaking even or still doing a bit better in terms of XP per Hour".

Spif

Back to the original topic: leashing.

You can't have too long a leash, because that invites easy AE farms. Whether these farms are good or bad, a very long leash makes it too easy to AE farm many camps.
Variable length leashes (change leash length on mob reset to keep people guessing) including a small chance for a really long leash sounds good. Possibly increase leash length with amount of HP lost by mob.
Mobs need to not attack on the way back, because otherwise it's too easy to train players. Accidentally or on purpose
Mobs probably need to heal and/or invulnerable on the way back after reset, or it'll be too easy to chip them down on the way back

A side topic to leashing is how fast are mobs? So far in demos we've only seen slow mobs. One things that is common in a lot of easy games is slow mobs. You can outrun them easily, sometimes without even snaring. I think that is crap. Once you dismount and engage, you should have to use snares, CC and/or mobility skills to get clear, or win the encounter.

George_Black

Instead of complaining about AoE farming and advocating for short leash (which would make mobs skippable and exploration mundane) people should PvP with AoE farmers.

Also, there are solution to AoE farming besides pvp. Stop talking about AoE farming.

JamesSunderland

I don't think short leash is the best way to deal with AoE farm, i don't have issues with the existence of zones that benefit/facilitates AoE farming, but to design an area where you don't want players to AoE farm you just make the monsters stronger, giving them powerful initiation skills with gap closes, CCs and CCs resistances or straight make the take reduced AoE damage, making it way harder to flee or let alone kill large groups of them.

WHIT3ROS3

I think the mobs should have a leash/aggro range on the shorter side. It's just annoying to be going through the world and you tag everything and anything you pass. Constantly having to whack away mobs. Mobs should be intelligent additions to PvP encounters, get opponents in a general area and watch them get swamped by mobs. It also stops trawling entire areas and picking up an insane amount of mobs to just farm down. I also think it would be beneficial to greatly reduce the agro range of mobs in development showcases.

novercalis

WHIT3ROS3 wrote: »

I think the mobs should have a leash/aggro range on the shorter side. It's just annoying to be going through the world and you tag everything and anything you pass. Constantly having to whack away mobs. Mobs should be intelligent additions to PvP encounters, get opponents in a general area and watch them get swamped by mobs. It also stops trawling entire areas and picking up an insane amount of mobs to just farm down. I also think it would be beneficial to greatly reduce the agro range of mobs in development showcases.

Aggro should be large. It's immersion breakign and stupid to see a giant dragon look at you and go "AWW SHUCKS, I only attack people who are 50 feet of me and you're at 1 feet more away (51ft).

Yet, you want mobs to be intelligent addition to PvP encounters, get opponents in a genera area and watch them get swamp????????? with a short aggro????????????
HUH?????????????

jesus - you guys want a care-bear easy PvE experience.
It's an MMO, a Living world, a dangerous world. You should be on your toes at all time. That fear of dying needs to felt, knowing you will incur XP Debt and get to end game longer.

It is also silly to see, An Evil Lich, deep inside his castle, only stop chasing you once you leave his room instead of his castle / domain.
if you weren't strong enough to beat him, get fucked and get chased out. You may even lose your spot now or have to work all the way back. THAT IS A GOOD THING.

Hardship, punishment. MMO shouldnt be easy and getting to end game shouldnt be the goal. it's all about the struggling and enjoy the slow progression when you do complete hard goals and hard content.

Most modern MMO - everyone wants to get to end game just to do hard content and get that phat loot - but why... why not make the entire game feel like end content, hard content and sprinkle loot here and there. It's immersive, it's meaningful, it's memorable, it's exiciting and most of all, sadly, it's different - going back to it's roots and embracing it.

Songcaller

novercalis wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

Not sure why there is an issue with aoe farming. There won't be enough quests to hit max level which means the groups need somewhere to grind too.

it cheapens the experience. fuck aoe farm. Also meta and screws over soo many players too

Classic WoW - lots of people got screwed over in their 30s when people started doing Scarlett Monastery. If you werent a mage, healer, Tank - you werent allowed into a group.

now imagine, there won't be enough quest to hit max level, correct but there won't be any tanks and healers for other players to grind either.
It's also braindead gameplay.

I am not trying to eliminate the ability to aoe farm, but simply creaitng mechanics that can fuck up aoe farms. So if your able to pull it off, cool. Risk/Reward - cause it should be easy to do and plenty of death should happen for you to consider, am I breaking even or still doing a bit better in terms of XP per Hour.

So, you want a solo grind fest like BDO? Because what you propose will force others not to group which I feel is the anti purpose of the whole point of an mmo. I do not want to be solo, accidentally pull multiple mobs and then be annihilated because of mechanics designed to stop 'aoe farming'. Sometimes I wonder what people are actually aiming for.

Noaani

George_Black wrote: »

Instead of complaining about AoE farming and advocating for short leash (which would make mobs skippable and exploration mundane) people should PvP with AoE farmers.

Also, there are solution to AoE farming besides pvp. Stop talking about AoE farming.

What sort of a game has mob leashing as the only way to make exploration not mundane?

If a mob has a very short leash, that doesnt mean you should be able to just run past it if it would pose a challenge to you. You should still only be able to run past mobs that literally pose no challenge.

George_Black

Noaani wrote: »

George_Black wrote: »

Instead of complaining about AoE farming and advocating for short leash (which would make mobs skippable and exploration mundane) people should PvP with AoE farmers.

Also, there are solution to AoE farming besides pvp. Stop talking about AoE farming.

What sort of a game has mob leashing as the only way to make exploration not mundane?

If a mob has a very short leash, that doesnt mean you should be able to just run past it if it would pose a challenge to you. You should still only be able to run past mobs that literally pose no challenge.

Talking with you is a waste of time. See yas after the next livestream.

Veeshan

Should make a pole tbh on how long people want leash lines.

But yeah the leashe is way to short in tank live stream you can literlay just run past the trash and reset them near the boss to kill boss without dealing with trash pulls.
If it was me i would either have an area where mobs defned like a big box drawn around the ruins in the tank and mobs will chase u until u leave this big box so there defending the ruins for example and wont just give up until ur out of the area.

I actualy quite like mobs not having resets at all and u got to find a random guard or player to save you some people who not use to this might complain bout this one though but i like the old school way of mobs basicly not leashing till you zone out or find a guard and some zones were huge. I think the box idea above is a good idea atleast for POI mobs those outside POI should have a 200-300m long leash though, reason for the box over the no leash is cause games dont realy have zone lines like the old games so i think we need to find a happy medium here.
In dungeons they should chase you to the entrance if it a particularly large dungeon you could have the occasional safe rooms where mobs dont chase you into and you could use a universal way of converying safe rooms by a poi like a monolith or room walls are like alwasy a blue crystal that mobs like to advoid so players know thats a safe area to reset if thing go bad. I would also like to recommend a class either masge of summoner have a group safe teleport like soccor i think it was for EQ where that spell had a 5-10 sec cast and it portal ur group to the entrance or closest safe spot and wipe mob agro.

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