pay to win headstart

i came across a video the other day stating that early backers will either have a 1 or 2 day head start before servers launch? i am fine with intrepid selling monthly cosmetics and anything that doesn't actually affect gameplay but this in my opinion is straight pay to win? i cant find any other information on it is anyone able to confirm this or hopefully i am wrong jaja

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Kilion

mcnasty wrote: »

Kilion wrote: »

I won't be going on a headstart server either, I want to be there when the land is still untouched.

Same. I suspect the vast majority will want to start on a fresh server that doesn't have HS players. It will be interesting to see if the HS servers manage to thrive after launch, or if they are avoided by new players and suffer from under-population.

I guess they will pick up numbers after the first days or weeks as by then it won't matter anymore where you start.

ShadowVen

It wouldn't be PTW for those who all start early. To remove the PTW aspect just dont choose that server if you dont have early access.

Neurath wrote: »

You can choose a non headstart server if you are worried.

This.

Chicago

ShadowVen wrote: »

It wouldn't be PTW for those who all start early. To remove the PTW aspect just dont choose that server if you dont have early access.

Neurath wrote: »

You can choose a non headstart server if you are worried.

well obviously i will not be choosing that server, but its not the fact that they get the headstart that bothered me its the fact that its been stated that no pay to win will exist within ashes of creation, even if its the smallest level its still by definition pay to win, for example, you get access to a server for two days before anyone else has a chance, after probably a year of alpha/beta tests the people on this server will know the game inside out for the starting experience its possible to get rare items, rare spawns, and most likely hit level 15-20 within this time frame, im not sure how the game mechanics work as we have not seen much of the game but say for example a mob is lvl 20, on a 3 day spawn timer, that has a 30% chance to drop x item, obviously the people starting early have a huge advantage to getting this,

im expecting these servers to be mostly dead servers regardless as no one is going to willingly choose a headstart server without the headstart unless it becomes beneficial to do so with queue times maybe

my point however is moving forward this game is advertised as 0 zero nada pay wo win atributes, i dont want things to just start slipping into the game, a day headstart there cosmetics here and all of a sudden theres level boosts and ptw weapons, either way just my thoughts

Ludullu

Chicago wrote: »

my point however is moving forward this game is advertised as 0 zero nada pay wo win atributes, i dont want things to just start slipping into the game, a day headstart there cosmetics here and all of a sudden theres level boosts and ptw weapons, either way just my thoughts

Except both headstart and cosmetics were pretty much in the game from the very start. So it's not like they suddenly came out of nowhere and draw a direct line to "this game will 100% become p2w because of this shit".

Chicago

NiKr wrote: »

Chicago wrote: »

my point however is moving forward this game is advertised as 0 zero nada pay wo win atributes, i dont want things to just start slipping into the game, a day headstart there cosmetics here and all of a sudden theres level boosts and ptw weapons, either way just my thoughts

Except both headstart and cosmetics were pretty much in the game from the very start. So it's not like they suddenly came out of nowhere and draw a direct line to "this game will 100% become p2w because of this shit".

Well im not saying it draws a line im just saying stating a game will have 0 pay to win features whilst having pay to win features is concerning

Ludullu

Chicago wrote: »

Well im not saying it draws a line im just saying stating a game will have 0 pay to win features whilst having pay to win features is concerning

These days the meaning of p2w is quite blurred. And I'd say that a few days of a headstart on predetermined servers and some cosmetics is one of the least p2w ways to monetize the game. If anyone disagrees with that to such a point that they don't want to play the game cause Steven "lied to them" about p2w - that's their choice and they're free to do so (not saying you're like that).

Songcaller

Most of us will be fast as fuck anyway. We'll have knowledge from Alphas and Betas. Unless the game changes between beta 2 and launch then 2 days headstart with limited capacity won't mean much.

Depraved

i had the same concerns about the head start, but not anymore. sure some people might make a lil bit of extra money the first couple of days in that one server, but I'm sure it will be more than possible to catch up or even make more than them if you focus on making money early on.

I'm not concerned anymore because the head start wont be for all servers. also, the node and housing system will be disabled. i don't expect those players to gain a huge leveling advantage, since leveling in aoc will be completely dependant on node progression. something along the lines of being level 10-15 and still fighting level 1 mobs

novercalis

Kickstart backer here - I am sure I am not alone in the fact that, Headstart means nothing to me.

Will I join a HS server? yeah.. for 1 day.. guess what, most of my guildies dont have HS and will be rolling in a non-HS server.

So there are plenty of 1-2 day headstarters who will ultimately go into a NON-HS server to stick with the guilds.

Most of these current Alpha Guilds arent even Kickstarters and wont have Headstart options...

Kilion

Chicago wrote: »

well obviously i will not be choosing that server,

Being able to make that decision just by itself to me makes it not P2W. The "advantage" you gain from the head start becomes completely irrelevant just by switching to a server to where it does not apply. It is not a continues advantage by any stretch.

Chicago wrote: »

its the fact that its been stated that no pay to win will exist within ashes of creation, even if its the smallest level its still by definition pay to win

Okay then let's take a look a the definition(s) of P2W and also look at the currently available information regarding the true scope of what we are talking about here:
(Edit - as I now looked at the Wiki myself I honestly can't be bothered to check out definitions for Pay-To-Win anymore, I think the argument falls apart just by looking at the Wiki.)

First let's go to the Wiki and see what we can gather about headstarts. From the Wiki: "The number of head start servers is estimated to be three. This is subject to change."
Taking the expectation that we might get 1mio players in Europe and North America each and assuming that we get 3 head start servers for each zones that would affect 6 (3%) of all 200 servers to begin with. Of course we would need to wait for number like total Alpha 2 and Beta sales to accurately gauge the number of total players but you get the idea. It would also be interesting to find out how many people actually could have this headstart. Around 19'600 players Kickstarter backers (source). So if they evenly distribute over 3 servers they make up less than 50% of the population meaning with enough dedication other players will be able to revert every decision these people have made. And that's only assuming that for once every backer is still interested in this game at launch and everyone is playing an equal amount of time. And I have a feeling that a lot of hardcore gamers who did not have the funding to fund this on Kickstarter would like a challenge like this.

And probably the most important note on the topic I found on the wiki is this:

The game functionality is limited during the head start period so that players cannot decide the world-scape earlier than others.

During the head start, the node system will be deactivated.

The core mechanic of the game cannot be accessed during the head start. The main source for quests, story progressing, zone development, POI discovery & expansion, solidifying political power is simply not there.
Any level advantage one can gain would have to come from basically grinding. Which is a HUGE slow down on all aspects of character progression.

Basically with just this information the worry of this being P2W should be gone from your mind, @Chicago

insomnia

I get he point. But there will always be people with an advantage. Someone without a job/ school etc. Vs everybody else. A streamer that can play all day, and have people give them things, boost their guild. Work on the node they want etc

Depraved

insomnia wrote: »

I get he point. But there will always be people with an advantage. Someone without a job/ school etc. Vs everybody else. A streamer that can play all day, and have people give them things, boost their guild. Work on the node they want etc

yeah but you get those things in the game, by spending time doing things in the game, not by swiping.

Naeleron

NiKr wrote: »

mcnasty wrote: »

Same. I suspect the vast majority will want to start on a fresh server that doesn't have HS players. It will be interesting to see if the HS servers manage to thrive after launch, or if they are avoided by new players and suffer from under-population.

I'd bet they'll be the ones that thrive the most, because while some people will avoid them due to "omg I'm like so behind everyone waahhh", a ton of people would not care about that shit and they'd instead just see a less populated server that has either no queues or just small ones. And with that server being populated by people who don't care about the "race" as much - it'll be more successful in just existing and everyone just enjoying themselves on it.

So literally pay to win, if they are the "good" servers to be on.

Kilion

Naeleron wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

mcnasty wrote: »

Same. I suspect the vast majority will want to start on a fresh server that doesn't have HS players. It will be interesting to see if the HS servers manage to thrive after launch, or if they are avoided by new players and suffer from under-population.

I'd bet they'll be the ones that thrive the most, because while some people will avoid them due to "omg I'm like so behind everyone waahhh", a ton of people would not care about that shit and they'd instead just see a less populated server that has either no queues or just small ones. And with that server being populated by people who don't care about the "race" as much - it'll be more successful in just existing and everyone just enjoying themselves on it.

So literally pay to win, if they are the "good" servers to be on.

There is not much to win when you have 48h head start without the primary game feature being active.

Naeleron

Kilion wrote: »

Naeleron wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

mcnasty wrote: »

Same. I suspect the vast majority will want to start on a fresh server that doesn't have HS players. It will be interesting to see if the HS servers manage to thrive after launch, or if they are avoided by new players and suffer from under-population.

I'd bet they'll be the ones that thrive the most, because while some people will avoid them due to "omg I'm like so behind everyone waahhh", a ton of people would not care about that shit and they'd instead just see a less populated server that has either no queues or just small ones. And with that server being populated by people who don't care about the "race" as much - it'll be more successful in just existing and everyone just enjoying themselves on it.

So literally pay to win, if they are the "good" servers to be on.

There is not much to win when you have 48h head start without the primary game feature being active.

There is infinite difference between "not much" and "zero".

Kilion

Naeleron wrote: »

Kilion wrote: »

Naeleron wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

mcnasty wrote: »

Same. I suspect the vast majority will want to start on a fresh server that doesn't have HS players. It will be interesting to see if the HS servers manage to thrive after launch, or if they are avoided by new players and suffer from under-population.

I'd bet they'll be the ones that thrive the most, because while some people will avoid them due to "omg I'm like so behind everyone waahhh", a ton of people would not care about that shit and they'd instead just see a less populated server that has either no queues or just small ones. And with that server being populated by people who don't care about the "race" as much - it'll be more successful in just existing and everyone just enjoying themselves on it.

So literally pay to win, if they are the "good" servers to be on.

There is not much to win when you have 48h head start without the primary game feature being active.

There is infinite difference between "not much" and "zero".

How is having 48h in an incomplete game with the primary feature for character and content progression deactivated anywhere close to a "win"?

I get the concern but only until one is looking at the available sources. What exactly are these people winning nobody else is having access to?

Naeleron

Kilion wrote: »

Naeleron wrote: »

Kilion wrote: »

Naeleron wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

mcnasty wrote: »

Same. I suspect the vast majority will want to start on a fresh server that doesn't have HS players. It will be interesting to see if the HS servers manage to thrive after launch, or if they are avoided by new players and suffer from under-population.

I'd bet they'll be the ones that thrive the most, because while some people will avoid them due to "omg I'm like so behind everyone waahhh", a ton of people would not care about that shit and they'd instead just see a less populated server that has either no queues or just small ones. And with that server being populated by people who don't care about the "race" as much - it'll be more successful in just existing and everyone just enjoying themselves on it.

So literally pay to win, if they are the "good" servers to be on.

There is not much to win when you have 48h head start without the primary game feature being active.

There is infinite difference between "not much" and "zero".

How is having 48h in an incomplete game with the primary feature for character and content progression deactivated anywhere close to a "win"?

I get the concern but only until one is looking at the available sources. What exactly are these people winning nobody else is having access to?

You obviously don't get "the concern". Maybe quit redefining P2W, and we can have a meaningful discussion about it.

daveywavey

Naeleron wrote: »

Kilion wrote: »

Naeleron wrote: »

Kilion wrote: »

Naeleron wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

mcnasty wrote: »

Same. I suspect the vast majority will want to start on a fresh server that doesn't have HS players. It will be interesting to see if the HS servers manage to thrive after launch, or if they are avoided by new players and suffer from under-population.

I'd bet they'll be the ones that thrive the most, because while some people will avoid them due to "omg I'm like so behind everyone waahhh", a ton of people would not care about that shit and they'd instead just see a less populated server that has either no queues or just small ones. And with that server being populated by people who don't care about the "race" as much - it'll be more successful in just existing and everyone just enjoying themselves on it.

So literally pay to win, if they are the "good" servers to be on.

There is not much to win when you have 48h head start without the primary game feature being active.

There is infinite difference between "not much" and "zero".

How is having 48h in an incomplete game with the primary feature for character and content progression deactivated anywhere close to a "win"?

I get the concern but only until one is looking at the available sources. What exactly are these people winning nobody else is having access to?

You obviously don't get "the concern". Maybe quit redefining P2W, and we can have a meaningful discussion about it.

This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Head_start

Noaani

Naeleron wrote: »

Kilion wrote: »

Naeleron wrote: »

Kilion wrote: »

Naeleron wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

mcnasty wrote: »

Same. I suspect the vast majority will want to start on a fresh server that doesn't have HS players. It will be interesting to see if the HS servers manage to thrive after launch, or if they are avoided by new players and suffer from under-population.

I'd bet they'll be the ones that thrive the most, because while some people will avoid them due to "omg I'm like so behind everyone waahhh", a ton of people would not care about that shit and they'd instead just see a less populated server that has either no queues or just small ones. And with that server being populated by people who don't care about the "race" as much - it'll be more successful in just existing and everyone just enjoying themselves on it.

So literally pay to win, if they are the "good" servers to be on.

There is not much to win when you have 48h head start without the primary game feature being active.

There is infinite difference between "not much" and "zero".

How is having 48h in an incomplete game with the primary feature for character and content progression deactivated anywhere close to a "win"?

I get the concern but only until one is looking at the available sources. What exactly are these people winning nobody else is having access to?

You obviously don't get "the concern". Maybe quit redefining P2W, and we can have a meaningful discussion about it.

I don't get "the concern" at all.

All you are really able to do on head start servers is explore the game world. Thing is, people will have already done that during beta.

Kilion

Naeleron wrote: »

You obviously don't get "the concern". Maybe quit redefining P2W, and we can have a meaningful discussion about it.

3 definitions I found when looking for the term "Pay to win"

"the practice of buying in-game items that give a player a very big advantage over others."

"Pay-to-win, abbreviated as P2W, describes an aspect of a game where players are allowed to get an advantage with real-world currency to purchase in-game items. The pay-to-win structure is prevalent in both multiplayer online games through DLC (downloadable content) and mobile games through in-app purchases."

"P2W is used in gaming with the meaning "Pay to Win," to refer to games that allow players to purchase items or abilities (e.g., more powerful weapons, additional health points) that give them an advantage in the game, either over other players or NPCs (Non-Player Characters)"

No, I get why people would be concerned that having a bit more time before others would lead to a "very big advantage" which is why I went through the information available to see how profound the advantage for such players would be, how widely this advantage applies and what exactly "winning" in Ashes of Creation would mean anyways.

After doing that I couldn't find a conclusive definition of what "winning" meant for people in this game, especially since over just a few days the time advantage could be mitigated by anyone who plays more hours per day.

Secondly, the progress people could make is heavily limited by the Node System not being active during these 24-48h head start. And with the information available about what a Node's impact has on character progression this is a profound limiter.

Third, the number of head start servers is said to be around 3. If we take that number and compare it to just the Alpha 2 key sales of around 300k and assume that we have just as many Beta key sales we get about 600k players, meaning about 60 servers. So the percentage of affected servers is 5% to 10%. If we have 100 servers at launch it is 3% of affected servers - that seems easy enough to dodge.

And that all ignores that there is no RMT which is already being said to be heavily punished when discovered, which includes the item purchased in all the definitions.

So if those factors are not what you meant, then please enlighten me what it is you think people will gain that can be deemed a "very big advantage over others." and why the factors that I considered don't have any meaning for this.

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