Rogue class concept (how to make it playable in group activities?)

Hi everyone and thanks in advance for your attention and comment.

I'm here to discuss the Rogue class in Ashes of Creation.
As someone who's played MMOs for many years, I've found that the Rogue class is often not in demand in parties, clans and mass activities (farm, raid bosses, mass PvP, etc).

In large-scale PvP, sieges, and raids, the Rogue is usually useless due to their low defense and lack of range attacks, AoE attacks, and constant deaths in melee combat with raid bosses and enemies in pvp.
In AoC, per the information that we have, Rogue will be in demand only for dungeons with treasure and secret rooms, maybe sometimes in caravan activities.

However, I believe that every class should be in demand in all activities and have equal opportunities for farming and self-class development.

So, I'd like to write a few suggestions to make the Rogue class more useful and in demand for group activities:

->Make stealth useful. Especially in the archetype of rogue + rogue, it should be as invisible as possible and use stealth multiple times, even if it has less defense. (This is a general opinion).
If there are simple ways to find the Rogue in hide, simple programs may appear to track it (some software, etc). Unscrupulous players, unfortunately, also exist.

->Stealth could be made multi-level. For example, depending on the number of enemies within a radius of 200 meters, stealth would change its properties (passive ability, sixth sense?).
For example:
-If there are 5 enemies - detection becomes more difficult.
-If there are 10 enemies - detection is impossible and the stealth charge is added/reduced the cooldown of use.
-If there are more than 15 enemies - mass attacks do not reveal the rogue from stealth.
-If there are more than 20 enemies - the rogue becomes immune to mass attacks, and the number of stealth uses increases without cooldown or with a minor cooldown (q-ty of charges?).
This would allow the rogue (assassin) to participate in large-scale PvP activities without affecting the balance in small groups.

->Increased damage if the damage is dealt to one target for some time period without damaging to other targets. If a rogue constantly deals damage to only one target without switching targets (raid boss), the damage multiplier for attacks from behind would increase, and evasion/defense against all types of attacks from that target would also increase. This could bring life to the rogue in raid boss encounters. The rogue would deal competitive damage and have survivability in raid bosses, making it worthwhile to bring them into a group. Additionally, this would fit the concept of the "assassin who follows their prey without changing targets."
This would give them an advantage in raid boss encounters and make them a worthwhile addition to a group.

->Add the possibility to reorient towards RDD when adding a second archetype and augmentation. For example, if Ranger is a balanced archer, then Predator (Rogue+Ranger) could be a glass cannon archer or an bow-styled assassin, that focused on damage. This would allow the Rogue to participate in such a spec in mass PvP, raid bosses, and sea content.

These abilities will not affect balance in small groups or solo farming, but it will allow to be in demand in mass PvP and raid bosses.

Also regarding PvE, I think we need to think about this. All classes always have mass abilities for farming a large q-ty of mobs or fast range\aoe exp farming, but usually, the rogue does not have such an opportunity and PvE farming, as well as character leveling, is usually much harder for Rogue than for other classes, which is very unfair. Therefore, I request to consider some options for leveling balancing so that the rogue can level up/farm as comfortably and quickly as other classes.

What do you think? Do you have any other suggestions for increasing Rogue class demand in group activities in Ashes of Creation? Thanks for reading!

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Comments

Ludullu

I've had almost the exact opposite experience. Rogues were very good at solo leveling, useful in party leveling due to their high single target damage and debuffs, amazing in pvp and mass pvp (again, due to super high single target dmg), very useful in raids (cause valuable debuffs) and were the best gank class in the game. Steven played the same game, so there's a chance that AoC rogues would have some of the same characteristics.

As for mass pve - fuck no. I don't want literally all the archetypes to do the same shit. Some of them will be good at mass pve and some will not. That's how it should be.

Vargos

NiKr wrote: »

I've had almost the exact opposite experience. Rogues were very good at solo leveling, useful in party leveling due to their high single target damage and debuffs, amazing in pvp and mass pvp (again, due to super high single target dmg), very useful in raids (cause valuable debuffs) and were the best gank class in the game. Steven played the same game, so there's a chance that AoC rogues would have some of the same characteristics.

As for mass pve - fuck no. I don't want literally all the archetypes to do the same shit. Some of them will be good at mass pve and some will not. That's how it should be.

Maybe you haven't played a rogue in these games and you had such an impression?
Or we played different games)
No offense to you, but it's strange that our experience is so different.

Although there's hope that the rogue will be useful in group activities, I started this topic to make sure we don't overlook this class.

For example, in Lineage 2, which Steven played, rogues were utterly useless in mass PvP, sieges, raid bosses, and farming.

In ArcheAge, another game Steven played, rogues were always less valuable in groups, than RDD, whether it was PvP or PvE.

I've encountered similar situations in other games where it was always more advantageous to have an archer or mage in the group as a DPS role.

Here are some examples:

✓In mass PvP or sieges with more than 20 players, rogues who approach too closely will be instantly targeted and killed. Even if they're invisible, they'll die without reaching their target because they'll be detected by AOE skills. Even if enemy don’t see him and open up behind of the enemies group - he will be killed instantly, and good luck if he can take at least someone with him.

✓In raid boss battles, rogues need to be near the boss to deal damage, but they'll also die from the boss's AOE abilities. While there's a tank to aggro the boss, it's more beneficial for a group to have a ranged mage/archer at a safe distance to deal damage to the boss, avoiding the need to heal a rogue frequently due to their weak defense and susceptibility to mass skills.

✓In PvE farming, groups usually gather and use AOE skills, making rogues useless in such a party. The other classes will kill a group of mobs faster, while the rogue runs to the target and hits them one by one without AOE skills.

✓And also how it could be in future AOC's sea activities, such as ship-to-ship combat and attacking sea raid bosses, rogues are also useless. They can't swim to an enemy ship without being killed or exposed by AoE skills if they try to hide on an enemy ship's deck. It's the same situation with sea raid bosses as with regular raid bosses.

Regarding PvE, it's true that assassins aren't designed for AoE PvE farming. However, rogues should have the same ease and speed in PvE as other classes. It wouldn't be fair if all classes took two hours to level up, but the rogue took six.

Ludullu

Vargos wrote: »

Maybe you haven't played a rogue in these games and you had such an impression?
Or we played different games)
No offense to you, but it's strange that our experience is so different.

I've both played and GLed guilds that had several dagger parties in L2. They had big impact in sieges, did a ton of damage in raids (and enabled tyrs/destrs to do more) and they were needed in party pvp because of their super high burst dps.

Maybe you played L2 on super early chronicles, where daggers didn't have gap closers or stealth or other useful tools?

Vargos wrote: »

✓And also how it could be in future AOC's sea activities, such as ship-to-ship combat and attacking sea raid bosses, rogues are also useless. They can't swim to an enemy ship without being killed or exposed by AoE skills if they try to hide on an enemy ship's deck. It's the same situation with sea raid bosses as with regular raid bosses.

We got no idea how sea combat will be designed so it's hard to say what impact any archetype would have. If sea content can only be cleared by mages and archers - that'd be the dumbest decision Intrepid could make.

Vargos wrote: »

Regarding PvE, it's true that assassins aren't designed for AoE PvE farming. However, rogues should have the same ease and speed in PvE as other classes. It wouldn't be fair if all classes took two hours to level up, but the rogue took six.

That's the point. Not all archetypes are meant to be equal in different types of content. Rogues should be incredible in single target combat or in party-like pve (where mobs have healers and supports), but they should be utter trash in mass pve.

Ashes is not about single player gameplay. You need to be in a party and you need other people to help you. Intrepid is trying to make "one of each archetype" a viable party setup, so if people decide to diverge from that to fit some type of content better - that's gonna be on them.

Songcaller

My rogue in my old guild was mass pve only. I used to let her be in my tank group.

Vargos

NiKr wrote: »

I've both played and GLed guilds that had several dagger parties in L2. They had big impact in sieges, did a ton of damage in raids (and enabled tyrs/destrs to do more) and they were needed in party pvp because of their super high burst dps.

Maybe you played L2 on super early chronicles, where daggers didn't have gap closers or stealth or other useful tools?

Thank you for your comments.

Yes, you're right, I really last played on Interlude. I abandoned the official server after the release of GoD. Lineage 2 started to die rapidly for me after that.

I agree that in versions after Interlude (Kamael and beyond), rogues became playable. But for mass PvP, it's worth remembering that they had skills that gave them almost complete invincibility on the battlefield for a fairly long time and reset the target (Wind Riding, Ghost Walking, Dodge, Mirage, Ultimate Evasion).

NiKr wrote: »

We got no idea how sea combat will be designed so it's hard to say what impact any archetype would have. If sea content can only be cleared by mages and archers - that'd be the dumbest decision Intrepid could make.

Yes, we still don't know how it will be implemented in the sea content. But knowing that there will be galleons accommodating up to 100 people, there is a guess that there will be battles between players on different ships. Based on this, it can be assumed that there will be a shootout between galleons and players on galleons. Perhaps part of the sea caravan content will resemble trading schooners in ArcheAge, where it was also practically impossible to be useful as a rogue in mass sea PvP.

NiKr wrote: »

That's the point. Not all archetypes are meant to be equal in different types of content. Rogues should be incredible in single target combat or in party-like pve (where mobs have healers and supports), but they should be utter trash in mass pve.

Ashes is not about single player gameplay. You need to be in a party and you need other people to help you. Intrepid is trying to make "one of each archetype" a viable party setup, so if people decide to diverge from that to fit some type of content better - that's gonna be on them.

I agree that not every class should be self-sufficient and strong in everything, in order to have more social interaction. But again, it should be balanced and there should be a place for every player of every class.

That's why I suggested some rogue skill concepts that could make them in demand and interesting in mass PvP and raids. Most likely, none of this will be implemented, but perhaps some of the developers will look into this topic and it will give them good ideas. It's a kind of brainstorming. When you study many ideas, a solution may emerge from small pieces.

Ludullu

Vargos wrote: »

I agree that in versions after Interlude (Kamael and beyond), rogues became playable. But for mass PvP, it's worth remembering that they had skills that gave them almost complete invincibility on the battlefield for a fairly long time and reset the target (Wind Riding, Ghost Walking, Dodge, Mirage, Ultimate Evasion).

And that's the tools I was talking about. I definitely want detargeting abilities/passives in Ashes and rogues to be the main archetype that uses them. And even semi-transparent visuals on a stealthed rogue would prevent the majority of people in a siege to miss them. Sieges are always a mess and it's gonna be really difficult to see a stealthed rogue through all the effects and other people.

Vargos wrote: »

Yes, we still don't know how it will be implemented in the sea content. But knowing that there will be galleons accommodating up to 100 people, there is a guess that there will be battles between players on different ships. Based on this, it can be assumed that there will be a shootout between galleons and players on galleons. Perhaps part of the sea caravan content will resemble trading schooners in ArcheAge, where it was also practically impossible to be useful as a rogue in mass sea PvP.

And alternatively sea pvp could involve boarding the enemy ships or even shooting people out of cannons or some shit. And rogues would be perfect for that because they're the best class in close combat (or at least on par with fighters). Additionally we know that we'll have potion launchers that would serve as the main means of ranged attacks on ships, so what if rogues have some cool debuffs that they can apply to the potions, so they'd be directly involved in ranged combat even w/o fighting people one on one.

Vargos wrote: »

I agree that not every class should be self-sufficient and strong in everything, in order to have more social interaction. But again, it should be balanced and there should be a place for every player of every class.

Solo or small group farming should be viable too (though not as much as mass pve) and rogues should be super valuable in those situations. And, as I said, if Intrepid are successful with their goal of "one of each" party design - rogues will have some kind of role in all types of content, so they'll have something to do even in mass pve/pvp.

But we have 0 info on the rogue so we don't know what kind of design Intrepid is going for rn.

Vargos

NiKr wrote: »

And that's the tools I was talking about. I definitely want detargeting abilities/passives in Ashes and rogues to be the main archetype that uses them.

I created this topic to draw attention to the rogue and not forget to implement playability for him in mass PvP and other mass activities.
To do this, I proposed options for skills that, in my opinion, will not break the balance but will provide more opportunities for their application.
And I just hope that the developers will at least look into this topic and make a note for themselves "playability of the rogue in mass activities."
For me, this would already be a blessing.

NiKr wrote: »

And even semi-transparent visuals on a stealthed rogue would prevent the majority of people in a siege to miss them. Sieges are always a mess and it's gonna be really difficult to see a stealthed rogue through all the effects and other people.

Yes, sieges are chaotic, and it will not be easy to notice a sneaking rogue. But they should also have the ability to retreat from the battlefield. I hope this will not be the only resort - jump into a fight with little hope to kill someone before you died from AoE dmg in the next few seconds, and without chances to return alive, how it works in most MMORPG for rogue...
After all, if you even kill someone, it will be almost impossible for a rogue to leave the battlefield with "visible invisibility" after you show your presence.

Arya_Yeshe

The Rogue class in other games is typically a close-range class that employs medium armor. However, in AoC, players will have the freedom to choose any armor they desire, along with the corresponding advantages and disadvantages. Additionally, in AoC, every player will have the ability to dual-class, leading to further benefits and drawbacks.

Due to these differences, it remains unclear how many distinct alterations will be necessary.

I would not stress on this matter for now.

Arya_Yeshe

My point is that Rogues in AoC are inherently distinct. While it's understandable to be concerned that the same issues present in other games may reoccur in AoC, there's currently no basis for such concerns.

So: /close

Vargos

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

The Rogue class in other games is typically a close-range class that employs medium armor. However, in AoC, players will have the freedom to choose any armor they desire, along with the corresponding advantages and disadvantages. Additionally, in AoC, every player will have the ability to dual-class, leading to further benefits and drawbacks.

Due to these differences, it remains unclear how many distinct alterations will be necessary.

I would not stress on this matter for now.

As Steven mentioned, regardless of the second archetype, the main influence will come from the primary archetype. If we take the concept of a classic rogue, that's what we're talking about in this topic. And if you read the potential problems of the rogue in mass activities that I describe, you'll understand that the ability to use different armor hardly will affect this potential problem.

Vargos

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

My point is that Rogues in AoC are inherently distinct. While it's understandable to be concerned that the same issues present in other games may reoccur in AoC, there's currently no basis for such concerns.

So: /close

Currently, there may not be grounds for matters, as we haven't seen a concept from the developers yet, but it's better to try to draw attention to this earlier than to ask the developers to change something after a finished prototype.

Songcaller

Prototype is never finished until after the showcase and feedback.

Vargos

Neurath wrote: »

Prototype is never finished until after the showcase and feedback.

Is it bad to suggest your ideas and voice possible problems and concerns before the prototype is developed?
I think not.

Songcaller

No but I correct your assumption. I have no issues with your assertions.

Vargos

Neurath wrote: »

No but I correct your assumption. I have no issues with your assertions.

Thank you for this. It's actually reassuring.
Overall, I created this thread because I wanted to make things better and possibly present some ideas or discuss some problems before the class prototype, but, unfortunately, I didn't receive support from other players.

Songcaller

There is a push to prevent a WoW styled Rogue. I do not see why the Ashes Rogue can't be more suited to group play and pve masses. I think there's a difference between back stabs and a true Rogue. I see Rogues as fast movers much like GW2. Not that GW2 is the shining beacon for some lol.

In the end, we can but make requests and pray to The Sandal God (Steven). There will be victories and there will be losses but at the end we can rest easy in the knowledge we were tested, weighed and heard.

Patchify

Vargos wrote: »

Hi everyone and thanks in advance for your attention and comment.

I'm here to discuss the Rogue class in Ashes of Creation.
As someone who's played MMOs for many years, I've found that the Rogue class is often not in demand in parties, clans and mass activities (farm, raid bosses, mass PvP, etc).

In large-scale PvP, sieges, and raids, the Rogue is usually useless due to their low defense and lack of range attacks, AoE attacks, and constant deaths in melee combat with raid bosses and enemies in pvp.
In AoC, per the information that we have, Rogue will be in demand only for dungeons with treasure and secret rooms, maybe sometimes in caravan activities.

However, I believe that every class should be in demand in all activities and have equal opportunities for farming and self-class development.

So, I'd like to write a few suggestions to make the Rogue class more useful and in demand for group activities:

->Make stealth useful. Especially in the archetype of rogue + rogue, it should be as invisible as possible and use stealth multiple times, even if it has less defense. (This is a general opinion).
If there are simple ways to find the Rogue in hide, simple programs may appear to track it (some software, etc). Unscrupulous players, unfortunately, also exist.

->Stealth could be made multi-level. For example, depending on the number of enemies within a radius of 200 meters, stealth would change its properties (passive ability, sixth sense?).
For example:
-If there are 5 enemies - detection becomes more difficult.
-If there are 10 enemies - detection is impossible and the stealth charge is added/reduced the cooldown of use.
-If there are more than 15 enemies - mass attacks do not reveal the rogue from stealth.
-If there are more than 20 enemies - the rogue becomes immune to mass attacks, and the number of stealth uses increases without cooldown or with a minor cooldown (q-ty of charges?).
This would allow the rogue (assassin) to participate in large-scale PvP activities without affecting the balance in small groups.

->Increased damage if the damage is dealt to one target for some time period without damaging to other targets. If a rogue constantly deals damage to only one target without switching targets (raid boss), the damage multiplier for attacks from behind would increase, and evasion/defense against all types of attacks from that target would also increase. This could bring life to the rogue in raid boss encounters. The rogue would deal competitive damage and have survivability in raid bosses, making it worthwhile to bring them into a group. Additionally, this would fit the concept of the "assassin who follows their prey without changing targets."
This would give them an advantage in raid boss encounters and make them a worthwhile addition to a group.

->Add the possibility to reorient towards RDD when adding a second archetype and augmentation. For example, if Ranger is a balanced archer, then Predator (Rogue+Ranger) could be a glass cannon archer or an bow-styled assassin, that focused on damage. This would allow the Rogue to participate in such a spec in mass PvP, raid bosses, and sea content.

These abilities will not affect balance in small groups or solo farming, but it will allow to be in demand in mass PvP and raid bosses.

Also regarding PvE, I think we need to think about this. All classes always have mass abilities for farming a large q-ty of mobs or fast range\aoe exp farming, but usually, the rogue does not have such an opportunity and PvE farming, as well as character leveling, is usually much harder for Rogue than for other classes, which is very unfair. Therefore, I request to consider some options for leveling balancing so that the rogue can level up/farm as comfortably and quickly as other classes.

What do you think? Do you have any other suggestions for increasing Rogue class demand in group activities in Ashes of Creation? Thanks for reading!

It's already been stated that classes will have their own roles to play their part with strengths and weaknesses. Homogenizing classes is contradictory to the direction AoC is going.

Vargos

Patchify wrote: »

It's already been stated that classes will have their own roles to play their part with strengths and weaknesses.

Yes, classes will play their role, but if this role is not in demand or its application is impractical, it casts doubt on such a role system. This topic is simply to draw attention to the rogue class and make this class relevant for mass activities such as mass PvP, sieges, raid bosses, and so on.

Patchify wrote: »

Homogenizing classes is contradictory to the direction AoC is going.

Also, the direction in which AoC is moving is to make all classes necessary and have interaction and mutual necessity between them. There is no mention in this topic of making all classes similar.
The goal is to make Rogue class in demand in parties and mass activities.

Gui10

Vargos wrote: »

In large-scale PvP, sieges, and raids, the Rogue is usually useless

100% disagree. I have no idea whiuch game gave you this impression?? But actually rogues have always been in high demand in every mmorpg because they are super useful in PvP and PvE!

In PvP, they have a unique ability of getting behind enemy lines and taking out important targets swiftly! No other class can kill as fast, as cleanly and as quietly as the Rogue. They are a menace. Many top PvP groups are led by or include important Rogue figures.

In PvE, they are usualy among the highest dps classes, albeist its a bit harder for them to position because they are very close-range and less beefy than warriors, still very useful. In AoC, the Rogues will have an additionnal role in PvE with their unique treasure seeking ability and unlocking certain pathways other clases wont be able to.

Vargos

Gui10 wrote: »

Vargos wrote: »

In large-scale PvP, sieges, and raids, the Rogue is usually useless

100% disagree. I have no idea whiuch game gave you this impression?? But actually rogues have always been in high demand in every mmorpg because they are super useful in PvP and PvE!

In PvP, they have a unique ability of getting behind enemy lines and taking out important targets swiftly! No other class can kill as fast, as cleanly and as quietly as the Rogue. They are a menace. Many top PvP groups are led by or include important Rogue figures.

In PvE, they are usualy among the highest dps classes, albeist its a bit harder for them to position because they are very close-range and less beefy than warriors, still very useful. In AoC, the Rogues will have an additionnal role in PvE with their unique treasure seeking ability and unlocking certain pathways other clases wont be able to.

Our gaming experience may differ, and it can vary between different games and their versions. And again, did you play as a rogue, or is it just your perspective from the outside? Above, I described situations where a rogue might not be in demand:

Vargos wrote: »

I've encountered similar situations in other games where it was always more advantageous to have an archer or mage in the group as a DPS role.

Here are some examples:

✓In mass PvP or sieges with more than 20 players, rogues who approach too closely will be instantly targeted and killed. Even if they're invisible, they'll die without reaching their target because they'll be detected by AOE skills. Even if enemy don’t see him and open up behind of the enemies group - he will be killed instantly, and good luck if he can take at least someone with him.

✓In raid boss battles, rogues need to be near the boss to deal damage, but they'll also die from the boss's AOE abilities. While there's a tank to aggro the boss, it's more beneficial for a group to have a ranged mage/archer at a safe distance to deal damage to the boss, avoiding the need to heal a rogue frequently due to their weak defense and susceptibility to mass skills.

✓In PvE farming, groups usually gather and use AOE skills, making rogues useless in such a party. The other classes will kill a group of mobs faster, while the rogue runs to the target and hits them one by one without AOE skills.

✓And also how it could be in future AOC's sea activities, such as ship-to-ship combat and attacking sea raid bosses, rogues are also useless. They can't swim to an enemy ship without being killed or exposed by AoE skills if they try to hide on an enemy ship's deck. It's the same situation with sea raid bosses as with regular raid bosses.

Regarding PvE, it's true that assassins aren't designed for AoE PvE farming. However, rogues should have the same ease and speed in PvE as other classes. It wouldn't be fair if all classes took two hours to level up, but the rogue took six.

I will repeat again that I just want to draw attention to this. Perhaps the developers already have a ready-made prototype that will fit perfectly into AoC. But we don't know about it, and I just wanted to draw attention to it so that we don't miss it.

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