Tower of Carphin - Some World Implications

Greetings,

Kickstarter backer here, ravenously anticipating the launch of Alpha 2 (and the game as a whole). My interest comes and goes in waves as the hype builds and I squash it to make the wait more palatable, but this is my first post because the PVE special zone reveal got me thinking.

With the node system driving the landscape, how many static PVE locations can we expect?

Will they be in the same place on every server, independent of node growth?

If so, why? If I happen to settle somewhere far away from one of these zones, will I be expected to go there for loot, story, quests, etc?

My thought about AoC was that content would be more localized around your nodes of citizenship - play where you want to contribute. I don't want to chase meta loot and trivialize the map like every other MMO. Making content that forces me to teleport (or run, given AoC's limited options) to ensure I'm not being left behind in the endgame is very artificial and immersion-shattering.

For anyone who follows the development more closely than I, please share what you know.

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Ludullu

We haven't gotten any concrete info on this, but I was imagining this more as a "node dictate which mobs you get and how deep they spawn", while all the physical locations never move. So the tower would probably always be in the same place, but depending on which node controls the zoi that covers the tower's location, mobs inside might differ. And depending on the lvl of that node we might have access only to a few floors instead of the whole tower. And if it happens that the controlling node hasn't been built up or was just destroyed, I'd imagine that the tower will be completely locked or blocked off by some random debris or whatever.

This would, in theory, drive people to build up different nodes and try to destroy other nodes in hopes of blocking people's content.

Mag7spy

How are we supposed to know this stuff? Game is still in development.

1. We have 0 clue how many pve zones are in the game, we can't play it.
2. World changes based on node growth so it will be around the nodes where some new things can pop up. I doubt that means there are not going to be high level areas away from higher level nodes. Yes you need to travel to go where you want....Meaning including across the ocean for gear

Sometimes it's not about what you want, it's about what the gameplay loop dictates. If you want to be competitive you need to do what the game expects you to do to get the gear you want. In AoC which is about exploration you are not just going to be able to sit at one node the entire game to get all your gear.

Honestly i think it's a bad take to think as an adventure you needing to explore and run to different points of the world to get the best gear would be even remotely immersion shattering.... This view makes no sense in ANY adventure fantasy story, sounds lazy like you don't want to run anywhere and are use to new style mmorpgs like lost ark where you sit at a town and que dungeons. So ya unsure how this is "very artificial and immersion-shattering." unless i misread somehow.

karava401

NiKr wrote: »

We haven't gotten any concrete info on this, but I was imagining this more as a "node dictate which mobs you get and how deep they spawn", while all the physical locations never move. So the tower would probably always be in the same place, but depending on which node controls the zoi that covers the tower's location, mobs inside might differ. And depending on the lvl of that node we might have access only to a few floors instead of the whole tower. And if it happens that the controlling node hasn't been built up or was just destroyed, I'd imagine that the tower will be completely locked or blocked off by some random debris or whatever.

This would, in theory, drive people to build up different nodes and try to destroy other nodes in hopes of blocking people's content.

Thanks for your speculation. My questions were in hopes of starting a discussion for us to hopefully let the idea spread and make it into a Q&A. I like your ideas, that the node development drives PVE content and therefore player goals. That, to me, is more immersive and more in line with what I thought the vision of AoC originally was (still is?).

Mag7spy wrote: »

Sometimes it's not about what you want, it's about what the gameplay loop dictates. If you want to be competitive you need to do what the game expects you to do to get the gear you want. In AoC which is about exploration you are not just going to be able to sit at one node the entire game to get all your gear.

Honestly i think it's a bad take to think as an adventure you needing to explore and run to different points of the world to get the best gear would be even remotely immersion shattering.... This view makes no sense in ANY adventure fantasy story, sounds lazy like you don't want to run anywhere and are use to new style mmorpgs like lost ark where you sit at a town and que dungeons. So ya unsure how this is "very artificial and immersion-shattering." unless i misread somehow.

My concern is that the "gameplay loop" could devolve into looking up gear on a database website, finding where it is, and spontaneously deciding my character needs to travel great distances to obtain something he could never possibly learn about in game or "in character," like every other MMO right now.

This isn't exploring, this is chasing a meta, which by definition is the opposite of immersion. I could always convince myself for RP/immersion's sake that I "heard a rumor" or saw a hero decked out in impressive gear and decided to find it myself, but, I am trying to explain that doing so would be me ignoring or excusing meta game design.

Take the limited global chat and travel AoC is designing, which directly discourages metagaming. Rumors of specific PVE zones would spread slowly and organically and grow with every telling, and chasing those rumors to find some new POI is very immersive and fun. I won't ever be the player that seeks meta on forums or other sites, but if I notice in wars or OWPVP that people are all looking samey because they're using specific pieces of farmed meta gear, well, it would just suck to see.

arsnn

karava401 wrote: »

With the node system driving the landscape, how many static PVE locations can we expect?

A while back intrepid shared their world map, which had meta data attached. It contained the name tags of every type of zoi, like nodes, dungeons, raids, areas, mountains etc.
It´s safe to say the list was incomplete, as the dungeon tower of carphin was not on the list. Though it mentioned carphin and also a tower.
It listed 220 POIs, of which around 130-140 are very likely to be some PvE POI, with a few raids, a lot of dungeons, but mostly open world PvE areas.
Someone extracted and organized the data into a google doc:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WQ6Z0AlkqBWk21BBPPzNtK5EH0Yuu2IFHGCBtK9u7oQ/edit

karava401 wrote: »

Will they be in the same place on every server, independent of node growth?

The location of zones are most likely entirely the same on every server. But the state of those zones might change. They can be locked and have to be triggered and are subject to influence over the nodes, their development and the types.

karava401 wrote: »

If so, why? If I happen to settle somewhere far away from one of these zones, will I be expected to go there for loot, story, quests, etc?

The way Intrepid plans to structure the content is very decentralized and non linear.
You are not gonna go from level 1-10 quest hub and go to the next zone, where you level to level 10-15.

The leveling paths players take is gonna be very diverse, someone might grind exclusively in his own node, but most players will hop from node to node to do quest, kill rare spawns and do dungeons.
Players wont experience all the content, unless they really go out of your way to do that.

karava401 wrote: »

My thought about AoC was that content would be more localized around your nodes of citizenship - play where you want to contribute. I don't want to chase meta loot and trivialize the map like every other MMO. Making content that forces me to teleport (or run, given AoC's limited options) to ensure I'm not being left behind in the endgame is very artificial and immersion-shattering.

I share some part of your concern here. The incentives to grind up your node and to grind up your character seem to be clashing a bit. Let´s see what they come up with

Mag7spy

looking up gear on a database website

This is not a issue for me, you can't base game design based on RP. That is up to you to do yourself and never look anything up. There is a reason why mmorpgs are very fun to jump on day one where no one knows anything.

Not just mmorpg but every game will have guides that show things over time with patterns and such (unless they made everything 100% random at all times which would cause balance and long term gear progression issues)

If you are wanting gameplay to be designed to only push RP and playing ignorant as if people are not playing a game have to say you need to play DnD cause that isn't going to happen in a mmorpg. In the fact guides, information sharing and everything will eventually be the reality.

Your rp issue also really doesn't affect your point on travelling long distances to find new things as if anything that pushes "rp" and having an adventure. Essentially you are mad that people will have an advantage by not ignoring tools and information sharing online and you don't want to do that. So imply don't do that, you don't need to be competitive just play casually.

When it comes to PvP if you are trying to be competitive people will do anything, RP means absolutely nothing in the face of winning and trying to be an alpha guild on the server. Simply don't be a part of that kind of content and you will save yourself.

Take the limited global chat and travel AoC is designing, which directly discourages metagaming

going to touch on this slightly, honestly this is a silly take. Global chat is not meta to me, it helps build a social environment and connects everyone together. This is the thing about people just wanting a mmorpg to be more RP than mmo wanting to reduce people being able to communicate and band together. This only effects smaller groups having a harder time, larger guilds will not have any issues and it will be to their advantage others can't communicate and work together as well.

Server Discords in mmorpgs is already a thing though with AoC being the only game to remove open would chat (they can change that very easily and have it in it though in a way that makes sense) except people to be taken out of the game to use discord for all their chatting instead. If it isn't on my server id simply create one as would other people and organize it in a way that make sense so people can talk and do their politics as well.

No matter how much you want everyone doing RP stuff, that won't be the case for competitive players, we aren't going to limit ourselves to simply rp in game for no reason. That is just the reality. And without giant open world chats, honestly it benefits my guild if anything on the server since we have plenty of members already and will only grow before the game launches so we can decide the major towns and such.

karava401

Mag7spy wrote: »

There is a reason why mmorpgs are very fun to jump on day one where no one knows anything.

The unfortunate fact is this will be true for Alpha 2 launch, but not live.

When it comes to PvP if you are trying to be competitive people will do anything, RP means absolutely nothing in the face of winning and trying to be an alpha guild on the server. Simply don't be a part of that kind of content and you will save yourself.

If I like the node I'm in, or value my citizenship somewhere, that's not an option. Nodes expand and have conflict/relations with their neighbors. I want to participate in all of that content, but do not want my town pressuring me into conforming to gear meta or facing an enemy army of tryhards that use a gear meta.

Mag7spy wrote: »

Take the limited global chat and travel AoC is designing, which directly discourages metagaming

going to touch on this slightly, honestly this is a silly take. Global chat is not meta to me, it helps build a social environment and connects everyone together. This is the thing about people just wanting a mmorpg to be more RP than mmo wanting to reduce people being able to communicate and band together. This only effects smaller groups having a harder time, larger guilds will not have any issues and it will be to their advantage others can't communicate and work together as well.

Keep in mind, goal server size is 8-10k players. Global chat with that many players would be ridiculous without severe limits anyway - see twitch chat.

Mag7spy wrote: »

Server Discords in mmorpgs is already a thing though with AoC being the only game to remove open would chat (they can change that very easily and have it in it though in a way that makes sense) except people to be taken out of the game to use discord for all their chatting instead. If it isn't on my server id simply create one as would other people and organize it in a way that make sense so people can talk and do their politics as well.

No matter how much you want everyone doing RP stuff, that won't be the case for competitive players, we aren't going to limit ourselves to simply rp in game for no reason. That is just the reality. And without giant open world chats, honestly it benefits my guild if anything on the server since we have plenty of members already and will only grow before the game launches so we can decide the major towns and such.

Again, my problem isn't that discord exists (I use it too for various games). My problem is theoretically (since we don't yet know how endgame activities or gear looks) that there will be incentives for metagaming based on specific dungeons and loot.

This will all have years to be figured out in Alpha 2. Biggest guilds could (again, theoretically) know at game live launch to "start at specific spawn, run to specific node, make X choices at X node level to specifically trigger X pve event" because said event/POI/dungeon grants a specific breastplate/staff/item that could be considered best in slot.

I'm not saying it's wrong or that people doing that makes me mad. I'm just saying that I expect and hope for better from AoC's design that would encourage organic play, and leave minmaxing for other games. Make EVERY level 5 node POI have good rewards that are worth it. Traveling to my nearest level 5 node (if I don't already live in it) to seek out content is immersive, normal, and enjoyable. Traveling vast distances to experience the world is immersive, normal, and enjoyable, but not if I already know where I'm going and what I'm getting there.

Mag7spy

The unfortunate fact is this will be true for Alpha 2 launch, but not live.

Not only will the full map not be in launch, but also not the full access to all levels, skills and gear of course. So it will be very true for launch you aren't doing meta things when you don't even have access to the full game since too much is unknown.

If I like the node I'm in, or value my citizenship somewhere, that's not an option. Nodes expand and have conflict/relations with their neighbors. I want to participate in all of that content, but do not want my town pressuring me into conforming to gear meta or facing an enemy army of tryhards that use a gear meta.

This is a weird rp take a town isn't going to force you to do anything, you most likely won't be known or special with a sea of other players unless there is a very certain reason that sets you apart, besides just playing the game normally. no one is going to care what gear you are using, if you are talking about very end game and you refuse to travel around the map to get mats and better gear that is on you.

As far as warring between nodes go, you can simply leave your node and join another one or just pvp as you want. Depending on the level of node there is going to be a clear difference between the guilds you are fighting and the level of try hard. No one is going to tell you what gear to use unless you are in a guild that is competitive. Else you do what you want casually and dont worry about what anyone is saying.

Meta is not a reason to make a game in a weird rp way. But if you have an idea that can involve fun gameplay you are free to share it but I'm getting the feeling you want to rework the wheel because people online will share information and create "meta"

Keep in mind, goal server size is 8-10k players. Global chat with that many players would be ridiculous without severe limits anyway - see twitch chat.

This point you make you don't even try to find solution you just say it won't work without thinking on it. This si coming from a bias that you simply don't want it rather then thinking on how to make it work. Which it isn't difficult I've already detailed this. You divide the chats based on regions and allow people to create custom chats and merge ones together to view more. IE merges 10 regions together to create their own global chat and view who is saying what. It would be fully up to the player and would ensure chats are open communication and not cahtoci unless you want it to be.

This is no different than merging your local, tells, guild, etc chats all into one. You simply do it per area to create a form of global chat..

Again, my problem isn't that discord exists (I use it too for various games). My problem is theoretically (since we don't yet know how endgame activities or gear looks) that there will be incentives for metagaming based on specific dungeons and loot.

This will all have years to be figured out in Alpha 2. Biggest guilds could (again, theoretically) know at game live launch to "start at specific spawn, run to specific node, make X choices at X node level to specifically trigger X pve event" because said event/POI/dungeon grants a specific breastplate/staff/item that could be considered best in slot.

I'm not saying it's wrong or that people doing that makes me mad. I'm just saying that I expect and hope for better from AoC's design that would encourage organic play, and leave minmaxing for other games. Make EVERY level 5 node POI have good rewards that are worth it. Traveling to my nearest level 5 node (if I don't already live in it) to seek out content is immersive, normal, and enjoyable. Traveling vast distances to experience the world is immersive, normal, and enjoyable, but not if I already know where I'm going and what I'm getting there.

If people work towards min maxing that is what it is and its fine. Its why i don't want dps meters so everyone can use it in a brain dead way and start creating more toxic elements.

End of the day again all games of META, you are breathing copium with over hype and over expectations for no reason on AoC assuming they will be different than every single other game made, and you don't even offer a solution. There is going to be plenty to discover, but with every other game eventually that will come to a crawl where people know where to go and what to get.

On a positive side, fortunately with AoC design on growing nodes and making people HAVE to TRAVEL around and level up new nodes as they explore. It will artificially extend that period of discovery of gear and fluctuation of the meta on paper atleast.

Anyway bottom line is meta will exist in all games as it should, this game isn't going to be some revolutionary game that is going to turn the game design upside down with new ideas and concepts that will ensure meta doesn't exist and exploring is forever impossible to track.

To think else wise you are over hyping and only going to lead yourself to be let down by trying to put a game on a pedestal with unrealistic goals created in one's mind. See what they do, maybe offer some ideas instead of impossible concerns and go based on what they are doing to keep your expectations in check.

George_Black

Only a handful of people may share your concern.
I dont wanna be stuck around a node. I want to travel great distances. Meaningful rewards will give depth to the exploration.
Not some vain RP exploration, in which the mmo is an accessory setting to some weird immersion perception.

Imagine complaining about discovering areas of the map.

"Online database" ? Blame the players. Blame the leakers. Blame the "cOnTEnt crEAtOrzz".

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

We haven't gotten any concrete info on this, but I was imagining this more as a "node dictate which mobs you get and how deep they spawn", while all the physical locations never move.

This is my assumption as well.

It doesnt make a while lot of sense that a tower (or cave, or dungeon) only exists if nearby nodes happen to be in a specific state - however it does make sense that the state of those nodes would influence what groups of people/animals move in and make it home.

Depraved

karava401 wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

We haven't gotten any concrete info on this, but I was imagining this more as a "node dictate which mobs you get and how deep they spawn", while all the physical locations never move. So the tower would probably always be in the same place, but depending on which node controls the zoi that covers the tower's location, mobs inside might differ. And depending on the lvl of that node we might have access only to a few floors instead of the whole tower. And if it happens that the controlling node hasn't been built up or was just destroyed, I'd imagine that the tower will be completely locked or blocked off by some random debris or whatever.

This would, in theory, drive people to build up different nodes and try to destroy other nodes in hopes of blocking people's content.

Thanks for your speculation. My questions were in hopes of starting a discussion for us to hopefully let the idea spread and make it into a Q&A. I like your ideas, that the node development drives PVE content and therefore player goals. That, to me, is more immersive and more in line with what I thought the vision of AoC originally was (still is?).

Mag7spy wrote: »

Sometimes it's not about what you want, it's about what the gameplay loop dictates. If you want to be competitive you need to do what the game expects you to do to get the gear you want. In AoC which is about exploration you are not just going to be able to sit at one node the entire game to get all your gear.

Honestly i think it's a bad take to think as an adventure you needing to explore and run to different points of the world to get the best gear would be even remotely immersion shattering.... This view makes no sense in ANY adventure fantasy story, sounds lazy like you don't want to run anywhere and are use to new style mmorpgs like lost ark where you sit at a town and que dungeons. So ya unsure how this is "very artificial and immersion-shattering." unless i misread somehow.

My concern is that the "gameplay loop" could devolve into looking up gear on a database website, finding where it is, and spontaneously deciding my character needs to travel great distances to obtain something he could never possibly learn about in game or "in character," like every other MMO right now.

This isn't exploring, this is chasing a meta, which by definition is the opposite of immersion. I could always convince myself for RP/immersion's sake that I "heard a rumor" or saw a hero decked out in impressive gear and decided to find it myself, but, I am trying to explain that doing so would be me ignoring or excusing meta game design.

Take the limited global chat and travel AoC is designing, which directly discourages metagaming. Rumors of specific PVE zones would spread slowly and organically and grow with every telling, and chasing those rumors to find some new POI is very immersive and fun. I won't ever be the player that seeks meta on forums or other sites, but if I notice in wars or OWPVP that people are all looking samey because they're using specific pieces of farmed meta gear, well, it would just suck to see.

so you will be upset if ashes does this, like every other game out there?

what about people who don't wanna spend months killing every single monster until they drop something, and then making their own loot database? i don't wanna get every possible item in the game just to decide which one is best. that's overwhelming.

you cant expect every item to be acquired anywhere on the map, regardless of your citizen choice. you will have to move around for certain loot. that's normal.

and if you want the bast gear for your class and build, you will have to go where it drops (or where you can get the crafting materials), wether that's 1 or more locations, but you cant have every monster drop everything...

Jindrack

The world PoIs exist in the same place on every server, Verra is a world with history and context, and where the PoIs are mean something to the lore, but to what extent they are open and available will be determined by the players. Maybe the Tower of Carphin's doors won't even open on your server, maybe on another only the first couple floors are available, and maybe on another the whole tower can be traversed.

Kilion

Relevant context from the Wiki:

A few points come to my mind which were about (1) traveling for loot and lore, (2) meta and (3) localized content.

1. If I happen to settle somewhere far away from one of these zones, will I be expected to go there for loot, story, quests, etc?

In a sense, yes. When you settle down and invest yourself with a node - as intended - it to a certain extent will limit your ability to travel without paying a price for it. The price in this case would be you not contributing to the progression and/or maintenance of your node. By also being a citizen of that node you might be venturing into territories of nodes that are not friendly towards you own.

So if you wish to experience more content in person, settling down can become something to hold you back. You will have to decide what is more important to you.

And of course if you are holing up in the Frostgrave Fells, you will not be able to learn about the lore of the Tower of Carphin on the other side of the world.

2. I don't want to chase meta loot and trivialize the map like every other MMO.

The nice thing about Ashes is that - if properly designed - there will be no "meta". The quality and quantity of resources available on a particular server will depend on where the strongest nodes are as more progression of a node unlocks better loot, more new PvE-like (I say it like this because there is little pure PvE content planned; e.g. only 20% of dungeons being instanced), higher quality resources in general but also draws more enemy attention (PvE and PvP). This might favor some classes for a few months but with the flexibility in the RPS system classes currently at a disadvantage can augment themselves to gain a greater edge, creating more profit for the Nodes that provide them with gear and resources to "counter" their archenemies, make these nodes grow, until they can break the "meta" and establish a new one - which will ultimately fall just like the one before (over the course of several months). So with the exception of lore based artifacts I would think there is not much "meta loot", the best gear ingame is said to be crafted gear anyways.

Suffice to say: Your personal interest based on character progression might draw you to a specific part of the map for some time but later to another as the environment (nodes & players) changes, but this will not be the same on every server, it will be different on each of them.

3. My thought about AoC was that content would be more localized around your nodes of citizenship - play where you want to contribute.

These thoughts are accurate. Contributing to the progress of a Node will reward you with more stuff in that Nodes ZOI to do. But since there is a cap on how far a Node can progress the things you can unlock are obviously also limited. At some point you may find that there is no more for you to see in this town... unless a neighboring Node that suppresses yours goes away (incentivizing you to wage war against them) or to move on (which if enough players do the same will lead to the Node falling in rank, triggering more change in the region).

To sum it all up: It seems to me that it comes down to your expectations. With the assumed time for the first Tier 6 node to exist currently being "many weeks" it would mean that dedicating yourself to your citizenship can possible provide you with up to a year of continuously new content (because there might be resistance to get there and just unlocking the new Node tier doesn't mean you also instantly have seen all the content & there is also the backtracking aspect which also will take time). But after that you would be incentivized to end your citizenship and explore a new part of the world.

I hope this helped

Depraved

there will always be a meta, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Kilion

Depraved wrote: »

there will always be a meta, and there is nothing wrong with that.

I think what he's worried about is that the meta highly limits the number of viable options one has in the game. e.g. a meta in Ashes would be "bad" if it made only 4 out of all the classes and only 1 item per slot viable for playing. I guess (and hope) that's what he was getting at.

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