MrPockets wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_ZBmBisWQs&t=786s I feel like nobody took the time to watch/understand this video @Mag7spy posted. I think it does a good job expressing why people are against accessible dps meters in game. Of course they will exist, and of course people will still do it. But the amount of players involved in "parsing culture" can (in theory) be mitigated. a small quote from that video: "Nobody is going to stop using parses. This is just the way WoW players are programmed. Do big Number; anything that gets in the way of that, won't happen. So if they have to move, they won't move. If they have to hit an add, they won't hit the add. If they have to stop to cast a spell, it's not going to happen. You just have to play around it, because you can't untrain people to not parse in WoW, especially classic WoW. They will parse, and that's it, they're like bots." - Asmongold This is ultimately why people claim things of this nature are bad for the game, it can fundamentally shift the player culture to playing "like bots" (others might call it "ruining the social experience").
Mag7spy wrote: » https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_ZBmBisWQs&t=786s
Depraved wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i wonder how players improved before there were any dps meters or in games that didn't have them 'DPS Meters' technically came before the games that use them, so this has never been a situation that mattered. But for the games that don't have them but could theoretically benefit from them, they probably relied on either 'a programmer that didn't reveal they were using one' (there wouldn't really be a reason to tell your play partners about your detailed hours of writing a parser since most people don't care), or one of those people with the 'talent' to do the same thing without the tool. Or the last way which was popular for a bit. Tons of people assume something is impossible, then one group figures it out basically by luck since there's less competition, less interference, etc. Some people like it this way. I have played games without dps meters o-o and people (and me) improve in those games. so how did we do it?
Azherae wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i wonder how players improved before there were any dps meters or in games that didn't have them 'DPS Meters' technically came before the games that use them, so this has never been a situation that mattered. But for the games that don't have them but could theoretically benefit from them, they probably relied on either 'a programmer that didn't reveal they were using one' (there wouldn't really be a reason to tell your play partners about your detailed hours of writing a parser since most people don't care), or one of those people with the 'talent' to do the same thing without the tool. Or the last way which was popular for a bit. Tons of people assume something is impossible, then one group figures it out basically by luck since there's less competition, less interference, etc. Some people like it this way.
Depraved wrote: » i wonder how players improved before there were any dps meters or in games that didn't have them
Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i wonder how players improved before there were any dps meters or in games that didn't have them 'DPS Meters' technically came before the games that use them, so this has never been a situation that mattered. But for the games that don't have them but could theoretically benefit from them, they probably relied on either 'a programmer that didn't reveal they were using one' (there wouldn't really be a reason to tell your play partners about your detailed hours of writing a parser since most people don't care), or one of those people with the 'talent' to do the same thing without the tool. Or the last way which was popular for a bit. Tons of people assume something is impossible, then one group figures it out basically by luck since there's less competition, less interference, etc. Some people like it this way. I have played games without dps meters o-o and people (and me) improve in those games. so how did we do it? Objectively speaking, how do you know you improved? If you were measuring yourself against other players, people are inconsistent and can get worse as easily as they can get better. If you are measuring yourself against PvE content, developers make unannounced changes to this all the time and so your "improvements" could just as easily be alterations to content.
Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i wonder how players improved before there were any dps meters or in games that didn't have them 'DPS Meters' technically came before the games that use them, so this has never been a situation that mattered. But for the games that don't have them but could theoretically benefit from them, they probably relied on either 'a programmer that didn't reveal they were using one' (there wouldn't really be a reason to tell your play partners about your detailed hours of writing a parser since most people don't care), or one of those people with the 'talent' to do the same thing without the tool. Or the last way which was popular for a bit. Tons of people assume something is impossible, then one group figures it out basically by luck since there's less competition, less interference, etc. Some people like it this way. I have played games without dps meters o-o and people (and me) improve in those games. so how did we do it? Objectively speaking, how do you know you improved? If you were measuring yourself against other players, people are inconsistent and can get worse as easily as they can get better. If you are measuring yourself against PvE content, developers make unannounced changes to this all the time and so your "improvements" could just as easily be alterations to content. well, by going something like... i can farm 500 mobs per, hour but if I do it this other way, I can farm 700, and then if I add this other thing I can do 800, etc etc. or, I can kill this boss in 5 minutes, but if I change this thing on my build or use this other combo instead, I can kill it in 4 and when it comes to pvp, well at first id die a lot then id die less and get more kills. people who could beat me, now cant.
Yuyukoyay wrote: » Parsing ruins the social experience, it ruins the games balance, it prevents the game from evolving and having corrected UI, it introduces toxicity of every kind that exists, it makes players lazy, it makes them unable to adapt, it eliminates their ability to insinuate things about the game, it stagnates build options, and it introduces incentive to not play as a team.
Mag7spy wrote: » Its funny people will defend the use of these tools and say people are the issue and not the tools ignoring the effects they cause on players. Which is pretty much just being dishonest. Its like akin to saying guns aren't the issue people are so there should be no reason allowing easier to use and more powerful weapons out there since they don't cause issues. Both sides will never agree with people for it wanting to take the soul out and look at things as 101 rather than being honest with the reality of cause and effect.
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Its funny people will defend the use of these tools and say people are the issue and not the tools ignoring the effects they cause on players. Which is pretty much just being dishonest. Its like akin to saying guns aren't the issue people are so there should be no reason allowing easier to use and more powerful weapons out there since they don't cause issues. Both sides will never agree with people for it wanting to take the soul out and look at things as 101 rather than being honest with the reality of cause and effect. See, here's the thing. Guns are tools. Many people literally need guns. People living in more rugged parts of the world need them for protection from things like bears. Farmers need them for dealing with a number of pests. Hunters need them for hunting. The problem with guns comes when people that dont need them, have them. Same with combat trackers. I have never said or suggested that all players should use them. Most dont care, and of those that do care, half still dont know how to use them properly. This is literally the reason the suggestion I have always made has been based around dangling other options in front of players - something people that cant make proper use out of a combat tracker would find significantly more appealing.
Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Its funny people will defend the use of these tools and say people are the issue and not the tools ignoring the effects they cause on players. Which is pretty much just being dishonest. Its like akin to saying guns aren't the issue people are so there should be no reason allowing easier to use and more powerful weapons out there since they don't cause issues. Both sides will never agree with people for it wanting to take the soul out and look at things as 101 rather than being honest with the reality of cause and effect. See, here's the thing. Guns are tools. Many people literally need guns. People living in more rugged parts of the world need them for protection from things like bears. Farmers need them for dealing with a number of pests. Hunters need them for hunting. The problem with guns comes when people that dont need them, have them. Same with combat trackers. I have never said or suggested that all players should use them. Most dont care, and of those that do care, half still dont know how to use them properly. This is literally the reason the suggestion I have always made has been based around dangling other options in front of players - something people that cant make proper use out of a combat tracker would find significantly more appealing. You are completely missing the point.
Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i wonder how players improved before there were any dps meters or in games that didn't have them 'DPS Meters' technically came before the games that use them, so this has never been a situation that mattered. But for the games that don't have them but could theoretically benefit from them, they probably relied on either 'a programmer that didn't reveal they were using one' (there wouldn't really be a reason to tell your play partners about your detailed hours of writing a parser since most people don't care), or one of those people with the 'talent' to do the same thing without the tool. Or the last way which was popular for a bit. Tons of people assume something is impossible, then one group figures it out basically by luck since there's less competition, less interference, etc. Some people like it this way. I have played games without dps meters o-o and people (and me) improve in those games. so how did we do it? Objectively speaking, how do you know you improved? If you were measuring yourself against other players, people are inconsistent and can get worse as easily as they can get better. If you are measuring yourself against PvE content, developers make unannounced changes to this all the time and so your "improvements" could just as easily be alterations to content. well, by going something like... i can farm 500 mobs per, hour but if I do it this other way, I can farm 700, and then if I add this other thing I can do 800, etc etc. or, I can kill this boss in 5 minutes, but if I change this thing on my build or use this other combo instead, I can kill it in 4 and when it comes to pvp, well at first id die a lot then id die less and get more kills. people who could beat me, now cant. What are you using to count mobs? Also, how do you know the mobs aren't being altered between tests? I've seen developers alter mobs on a weekly basis in a surprisingly high percentage of games. Not massive changes, just two or three percent HP or damage output, small things like that. They often tend to alter mobs to make them slightly easier over time, because developers are really smart and they know people like to feel a sense of progression. Making mobs (especially - but not exclusively - boss mobs) ever so slightly easier over time means players just "going by feel" will always feel a sense of progression - literally exactly as you are talking about here. And let's not forget about games that have an amount of randomization in mob stats as they spawn. The differences you are talking about could easily be attributed to a run in the games RNG, and you would have literally no idea. So, I'm not saying you did or did not progress as a player, but I am saying that you cant say that either - because you really dont know.
Depraved wrote: » not in the games I've played.
Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » not in the games I've played. Almost without question, yes, in games you have played. Assuming, of course, you play MMORPG's. If you aren't running a combat tracker (and paying obsessive attention to parse data spanning months or even years), you are in no position to say it does or doesn't happen in games you play. The thing with the way you are doing things is that a 1% change to a mobs HP isn't going to alter how many attacks it takes you to kill it. However, it will alter how long it takes to AoE large numbers of mobs. Also, you are not both counting how many hits it takes to kill a mob and also counting that you have killed 800 mobs per hour. I mean, I could continue to pick holes in your story here all day. You have claimed you measure your proficiency by measuring how many mobs you kill per hour - but how are you accounting for travel time? What about variation in mob spawn times? Also, I have yet to come across a game that has any mob challenging enough to be valid for a test of player improvement, yet that will see 800 of that mob exist within a given 1 hour period. Honestly sounds like a shit game. Or bullshit.
Depraved wrote: » how did people improve before dps trackers or in games where you don't have trackers? no one has still answered that. maybe people are willing to say it is impossible to improve without tracking tools?
Azherae wrote: » Depraved wrote: » how did people improve before dps trackers or in games where you don't have trackers? no one has still answered that. maybe people are willing to say it is impossible to improve without tracking tools? I did answer this. Regardless of whether or not people improve without trackers, trackers came before the games that needed them. Therefore there has never been a period where MMOs didn't have trackers. Maybe a period when few people understood or had them. Maybe a period where a specific game didn't give most people any way to use them. But because of the 'arms race' between 'ways to hide data from the client' and 'ways to parse the data' always favoring the second, there is no 'game before trackers'.
Depraved wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Depraved wrote: » how did people improve before dps trackers or in games where you don't have trackers? no one has still answered that. maybe people are willing to say it is impossible to improve without tracking tools? I did answer this. Regardless of whether or not people improve without trackers, trackers came before the games that needed them. Therefore there has never been a period where MMOs didn't have trackers. Maybe a period when few people understood or had them. Maybe a period where a specific game didn't give most people any way to use them. But because of the 'arms race' between 'ways to hide data from the client' and 'ways to parse the data' always favoring the second, there is no 'game before trackers'. bruh you know what I mean...games that didn't offer trackers to the players. (or no third party trackers)
Depraved wrote: » bruh you know what I mean...games that didn't offer trackers to the players. (or no third party trackers).
Depraved wrote: » well, you can also measure it by items gathered per hour. if the Mob you are killing drops an item with a 100% chance, and one day you get 400 of those per hour, then the next day 500, then 600, then 800, etc, arent you improving? you are doing something that makes you do more damage per hour in the same map/spot/area and then you keep doing that consistently for days, weeks or months.
you are only considering dpsing, or dpsing a dummy target.
Noaani wrote: » No, I'm not. I'm waiting for you to reasonably and logically respond to the above point that tools are perfectly valid in the right hands, even if not great in the wrong hands. The point you would need to make in reply to that is in regards to the effect it would have if some people have access to a tool that jot everyone has, as that is literally the only valid direction you can take things. Obviously, I have a reply to that, but I cant provide said reply until you make the point. Your other options are to opt to not further the discussion, or attempting to redirect the discussion. The only real redirect you have is the notion that people wint agree, which is essentially a statement of understanding that you have no reason as to why I shouldnt have a combat tracker as long as you dont have to use one.
Kassual wrote: » For some reason I went through the first 50 pages of this thread looping around the same arguments and I'm amazed that we've managed to drag the discussion to page 186. But I guess that's what happens when new people, like me... chime in on the discussion and some people are very persistent on bringing up their opinion on the matter. Therefore I'm not sure if I should be doing this but here we go. : ) Noaani wrote: » No, I'm not. I'm waiting for you to reasonably and logically respond to the above point that tools are perfectly valid in the right hands, even if not great in the wrong hands. The point you would need to make in reply to that is in regards to the effect it would have if some people have access to a tool that jot everyone has, as that is literally the only valid direction you can take things. Obviously, I have a reply to that, but I cant provide said reply until you make the point. Your other options are to opt to not further the discussion, or attempting to redirect the discussion. The only real redirect you have is the notion that people wint agree, which is essentially a statement of understanding that you have no reason as to why I shouldnt have a combat tracker as long as you dont have to use one. I'm not sure if there have been any updates on this matter, but this was the situation on page 50, someone please correct me if something isn't true. AOC doesn't have build in DPS meters/ACTs IS doesn't support the use of 3rd party tools IS considers the use of 3rd party tools being against the rules Use of 3rd party tools could be bannable offense? Assuming everything above is still true, I think that some having access to ACTs while others don't, could be harmful especially for one specific group of players; competitive players who don't want to use ACTs. Resources in AOC will be limited and contested, and players with ACTs will have competitive advantage over the players that don't use ACTs. If the use of ACTs were to be allowed but made optional, it wouldn't really be optional to the players/guilds who want to be competitive, on equal footing with players/guilds who are using ACTs. From the 50 pages that I read, I can say that majority of the people don't seem to want DPS meters/ACTs in AOC. So majority of players don't want these tools in the game and allowing the use of these tools, even if optional, would force a lot of players to use them even if they wouldn't want to. Therefore I'm happy with the direction that IS is taking regarding DPS meters, assuming my information on this is up to date.
