DPS Meter Megathread

Noaani wrote: »

Solvryn wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Solvryn wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Solvryn wrote: »

Reactive combat would fix the DPS meter debacle. Instead of rotations we get the proper skill in the proper moment.

TERA was like this, worked out well.

Reactive skills and rotations have no correlation to combat trackers.

There was a TERA pluggin for ACT.

And they weren’t necessity in TERA. Because the combat was reactive.

The notion of reactive combat has no bearing at all on the usefulness of a combat tracker.

In any game system (combat or otherwise) in which players have two or more options, a combat tracker is of use.

No one needed a combat tracker for TERA. Could you use them? Sure.

You just reacted accordingly.

So, I never played TERA, my understanding of tracker use in that game is second hand (though from someone I trust without question).

Are you suggesting above that in your experience, players never had any actual viable decisions to make in combat in that game?

I did and I never used a tracker, that game wasn’t stat complex. There wasn’t a whole lot of options in gear, in that regard it was straight forward and bland. There was 1 max PvE set and one max PvP set when I played.

Most of that game was timing and reaction, there wasn’t variety. People just looked for windows of their “womb combos” and that was it.

But the combat part in that game was incredibly tactical and strategic, reactive.

If they have already stated game is not going to allow third party add ons, them talking about difficulty is not going to be based on that. But by their designs to create the difficult content however they do it and balance passes for what they expect.

You are getting to hung up on 10% and i feel you are making the assumption when you say "tuning" they will make it more difficult dmg / stats wise. There are other ways to up difficulty of content not revolving around a tracker using skill based methods.

Tops guilds also aren't the top 10% of population that is a faction of a faction them using trackers wouldn't effect anything. Further more not being able to view your teammates dmg means such trackers aren't going to be useful taking away from your point on these top guilds using trackers when they can't get the full picture. The more hoops they add of difficulty the les people will be using them or have a care for them at the end of the day.

Your reality is really based on assumptions, it is more fantasy until the game is out and we see how the game paly is, amount of people and what happens exactly.

Azherae

Mag7spy wrote: »

If they have already stated game is not going to allow third party add ons, them talking about difficulty is not going to be based on that. But by their designs to create the difficult content however they do it and balance passes for what they expect.

You are getting to hung up on 10% and i feel you are making the assumption when you say "tuning" they will make it more difficult dmg / stats wise. There are other ways to up difficulty of content not revolving around a tracker using skill based methods.

Tops guilds also aren't the top 10% of population that is a faction of a faction them using trackers wouldn't effect anything. Further more not being able to view your teammates dmg means such trackers aren't going to be useful taking away from your point on these top guilds using trackers when they can't get the full picture. The more hoops they add of difficulty the les people will be using them or have a care for them at the end of the day.

Your reality is really based on assumptions, it is more fantasy until the game is out and we see how the game paly is, amount of people and what happens exactly.

So, just to be clear, you would prefer that the game did not make it possible to see your teammates' damage numbers at all (or that they could turn it off so that you couldn't see them while in their group)?

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

If they have already stated game is not going to allow third party add ons, them talking about difficulty is not going to be based on that. But by their designs to create the difficult content however they do it and balance passes for what they expect.

You are getting to hung up on 10% and i feel you are making the assumption when you say "tuning" they will make it more difficult dmg / stats wise. There are other ways to up difficulty of content not revolving around a tracker using skill based methods.

Tops guilds also aren't the top 10% of population that is a faction of a faction them using trackers wouldn't effect anything. Further more not being able to view your teammates dmg means such trackers aren't going to be useful taking away from your point on these top guilds using trackers when they can't get the full picture. The more hoops they add of difficulty the les people will be using them or have a care for them at the end of the day.

Your reality is really based on assumptions, it is more fantasy until the game is out and we see how the game paly is, amount of people and what happens exactly.

So, just to be clear, you would prefer that the game did not make it possible to see your teammates' damage numbers at all (or that they could turn it off so that you couldn't see them while in their group)?

What is what id expect if they said there will not be damage meters else if you can see all information about your team and the people around you it is going to be apparent meter or not.

Azherae

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

If they have already stated game is not going to allow third party add ons, them talking about difficulty is not going to be based on that. But by their designs to create the difficult content however they do it and balance passes for what they expect.

You are getting to hung up on 10% and i feel you are making the assumption when you say "tuning" they will make it more difficult dmg / stats wise. There are other ways to up difficulty of content not revolving around a tracker using skill based methods.

Tops guilds also aren't the top 10% of population that is a faction of a faction them using trackers wouldn't effect anything. Further more not being able to view your teammates dmg means such trackers aren't going to be useful taking away from your point on these top guilds using trackers when they can't get the full picture. The more hoops they add of difficulty the les people will be using them or have a care for them at the end of the day.

Your reality is really based on assumptions, it is more fantasy until the game is out and we see how the game paly is, amount of people and what happens exactly.

So, just to be clear, you would prefer that the game did not make it possible to see your teammates' damage numbers at all (or that they could turn it off so that you couldn't see them while in their group)?

What is what id expect if they said there will not be damage meters else if you can see all information about your team and the people around you it is going to be apparent meter or not.

I hope this doesn't seem like I'm trying to insult you, I promise not, but I really couldn't parse this line at all.

I don't want to make assumptions, but I'll just derail in a specific way.

Combat Trackers are for checking statistical level interactions without manually putting every datapoint into a spreadsheet. This is why I mentioned Accuracy and Evasion earlier. Those are the things I am referring to. ACC and EVA in a game with 10+ minute TTK on a boss becomes statistics, not 'observation', in terms of build changes and adaptations.

You can ignore the paragraph above if it seems like I'm trying to make a point that isn't relevant to your line.

Azherae wrote: »

I hope this doesn't seem like I'm trying to insult you, I promise not, but I really couldn't parse this line at all.

Yeah, that line has a CRITICAL lack of punctuation.

I think this is roughly correct?

Mag7spy wrote: »

That is what I'd expect, if they said there will not be damage meters. Else, if you can see all information about your team and the people around you, it is going to be apparent, meter or not.

And I think he means that we won't see out mates' numbers, because Intrepid don't want meters. And even if we did see all those numbers, meters wouldn't be required because... well, we see all the numbers.

And if I'm right in that assumption, I think your reply applies.

I think some people are confusing DPS meters and Combat Trackers.

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

I hope this doesn't seem like I'm trying to insult you, I promise not, but I really couldn't parse this line at all.

Yeah, that line has a CRITICAL lack of punctuation.

I think this is roughly correct?

Mag7spy wrote: »

That is what I'd expect, if they said there will not be damage meters. Else, if you can see all information about your team and the people around you, it is going to be apparent, meter or not.

And I think he means that we won't see out mates' numbers, because Intrepid don't want meters. And even if we did see all those numbers, meters wouldn't be required because... well, we see all the numbers.

And if I'm right in that assumption, I think your reply applies.

The first part of that pretty much since they don't want things being shared you will see your own stats int heir combat tracker not allies.

If you can see allies then its hard to stop that element since people will have all the data they need to create whatever they want or can still view allies dmg / skills and be toxic. Which means they aren't fully trying to prevent the use of all those tools and the elements them bring.

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

If they have already stated game is not going to allow third party add ons, them talking about difficulty is not going to be based on that. But by their designs to create the difficult content however they do it and balance passes for what they expect.

You are getting to hung up on 10% and i feel you are making the assumption when you say "tuning" they will make it more difficult dmg / stats wise. There are other ways to up difficulty of content not revolving around a tracker using skill based methods.

Tops guilds also aren't the top 10% of population that is a faction of a faction them using trackers wouldn't effect anything. Further more not being able to view your teammates dmg means such trackers aren't going to be useful taking away from your point on these top guilds using trackers when they can't get the full picture. The more hoops they add of difficulty the les people will be using them or have a care for them at the end of the day.

Your reality is really based on assumptions, it is more fantasy until the game is out and we see how the game paly is, amount of people and what happens exactly.

So, just to be clear, you would prefer that the game did not make it possible to see your teammates' damage numbers at all (or that they could turn it off so that you couldn't see them while in their group)?

What is what id expect if they said there will not be damage meters else if you can see all information about your team and the people around you it is going to be apparent meter or not.

I hope this doesn't seem like I'm trying to insult you, I promise not, but I really couldn't parse this line at all.

I don't want to make assumptions, but I'll just derail in a specific way.

Combat Trackers are for checking statistical level interactions without manually putting every datapoint into a spreadsheet. This is why I mentioned Accuracy and Evasion earlier. Those are the things I am referring to. ACC and EVA in a game with 10+ minute TTK on a boss becomes statistics, not 'observation', in terms of build changes and adaptations.

You can ignore the paragraph above if it seems like I'm trying to make a point that isn't relevant to your line.

I'm simply saying if they are preventing the use of such tools being effective hiding all stats / skill use on allies should be the reality. Meaning the tool is only effective for yourself, but not a grand picture of all details. Without more hoops someone has to jump through increasing the barrier to entry to attempt it.

Solvryn wrote: »

I think some people are confusing DPS meters and Combat Trackers.

They are the same thing, just a different term. Combat trackers are the term that people know their full utility call them, DPS meters are what those that do mot understand them call them.

There is no DPS meter for any game that isn't able to be a full combat tracker (that I have seen), and no combat tracker that isn't a DPS meter.

Mag7spy wrote: »

If they have already stated game is not going to allow third party add ons, them talking about difficulty is not going to be based on that.

You still seem to not be getting it.

It seems perhaps you are unaware that developers actually never know what kind of power level top end players are going to have. They make the game, but players very quickly come to understand it better than the developers do. We take advantage of things developers never considered, combine effects and classes in ways developers didn't foresee.

Literally the only way developers have of seeing how hard a new piece of content will be is to put it on live and see how hard players in top end guilds find it.

Based on the above, would you please explain to me, good sir, how Intrepid are going to fine tune content to be a serious challenge to players, but without taking combat trackers in to account, when they have no means of telling who is and who is not using combat trackers?

It is worth pointing out that the tracker I have right now connects to a server, so I can get everyone in my guild/raid to join the same server. Rather than parse each individual player locally, all clients connected to the server are collated in to a single log file which is then simply run through ACT.

Azherae

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

If they have already stated game is not going to allow third party add ons, them talking about difficulty is not going to be based on that. But by their designs to create the difficult content however they do it and balance passes for what they expect.

You are getting to hung up on 10% and i feel you are making the assumption when you say "tuning" they will make it more difficult dmg / stats wise. There are other ways to up difficulty of content not revolving around a tracker using skill based methods.

Tops guilds also aren't the top 10% of population that is a faction of a faction them using trackers wouldn't effect anything. Further more not being able to view your teammates dmg means such trackers aren't going to be useful taking away from your point on these top guilds using trackers when they can't get the full picture. The more hoops they add of difficulty the les people will be using them or have a care for them at the end of the day.

Your reality is really based on assumptions, it is more fantasy until the game is out and we see how the game paly is, amount of people and what happens exactly.

So, just to be clear, you would prefer that the game did not make it possible to see your teammates' damage numbers at all (or that they could turn it off so that you couldn't see them while in their group)?

What is what id expect if they said there will not be damage meters else if you can see all information about your team and the people around you it is going to be apparent meter or not.

I hope this doesn't seem like I'm trying to insult you, I promise not, but I really couldn't parse this line at all.

I don't want to make assumptions, but I'll just derail in a specific way.

Combat Trackers are for checking statistical level interactions without manually putting every datapoint into a spreadsheet. This is why I mentioned Accuracy and Evasion earlier. Those are the things I am referring to. ACC and EVA in a game with 10+ minute TTK on a boss becomes statistics, not 'observation', in terms of build changes and adaptations.

You can ignore the paragraph above if it seems like I'm trying to make a point that isn't relevant to your line.

I'm simply saying if they are preventing the use of such tools being effective hiding all stats / skill use on allies should be the reality. Meaning the tool is only effective for yourself, but not a grand picture of all details. Without more hoops someone has to jump through increasing the barrier to entry to attempt it.

Yeah, got it.

My experience with games like that is general toxicity, but it's not like the Trackers actually stop that, since the sort of person who is toxic because they don't have objective data isn't usually less toxic once they get it from a third party.

Honestly if I thought for a minute that a better game would result from 'not showing damage' I'd be all for it.

Now I need to review something from my Alpha-1 footage...

Azherae wrote: »

Honestly if I thought for a minute that a better game would result from 'not showing damage' I'd be all for it.

So would I.

Fact is, it doesnt work that way.

The least toxic game I've played happens to have the most combat tracker use, and the most toxic game I've ever played had the least combat tracker use.

There is literally no over all correlation between tracker use and toxicity levels in a game.

Sure, someone may point to data from a tracker and be toxic using that data, but there are other factors causing that toxicity from happening in the first place.

In a game where you want to be in good standing within your community, toxicity drops to near zero - that is the actual key.

This is why I stepped away from the toxicity argument. Toxic people are always toxic. A tracker would just be another tool for them to apply toxicity with.

NiKr wrote: »

This is why I stepped away from the toxicity argument. Toxic people are always toxic. A tracker would just be another tool for them to apply toxicity with.

Yeah, I don't doubt that it would be another tool, but it is a tool in an already toxic persons hands.

The fix for the problem isnt removing tools from toxic people - as the only tool a toxic person actually needs is a communication channel. The fix is to make it so toxic people cant succeed in the game.

NiKr wrote: »

This is why I stepped away from the toxicity argument. Toxic people are always toxic. A tracker would just be another tool for them to apply toxicity with.

Going to have to break with you here dude, that's like saying weapons kill people. They need energy already produced by their wielder to be effective.

And combat trackers can be utilized in a way to further grief people, but the chances are the person causing undo grief to others is already a piece of shit.

Reality, not only are people going to farm up their weapons to kill things, they're going to get the data for the most effective and efficient way to do it.

I guess I should've been more clear in that comment. I'm saying that trackers do not make toxic people, they can just be used by them, but only if those people were already toxic. I agree with both of you. Which is why I said that I no longer use "toxicity" as a counter argument against meters.

I still dislike meters because they speed up the difficulty curve of the game and soon enough either lead to the majority of content being completely unclearable by your normal player or the top skill players leaving the game because devs can't keep up with their demand, at which point the initial difficulty spike that was supposed to keep those top skill players was kinda pointless and a waste of dev time.

But we've already discussed this in this thread before, so I don't think that repeating that discussion would bring us to any new place. Which is why I avoided bringing this up in that initial comment.

NiKr wrote: »

I guess I should've been more clear in that comment. I'm saying that trackers do not make toxic people, they can just be used by them, but only if those people were already toxic. I agree with both of you. Which is why I said that I no longer use "toxicity" as a counter argument against meters.

I still dislike meters because they speed up the difficulty curve of the game and soon enough either lead to the majority of content being completely unclearable by your normal player or the top skill players leaving the game because devs can't keep up with their demand, at which point the initial difficulty spike that was supposed to keep those top skill players was kinda pointless and a waste of dev time.

But we've already discussed this in this thread before, so I don't think that repeating that discussion would bring us to any new place. Which is why I avoided bringing this up in that initial comment.

Devs will always decide how difficult their game is, which I'm hoping for advanced AI.

Solvryn wrote: »

Devs will always decide how difficult their game is, which I'm hoping for advanced AI.

Yeah, except, as Noaani likes to say, that decision will depend on the top players. Intrepid have already (allegedly) decided on the difficulty. There'll supposedly be content that only <10% of the playerbase can beat. That seems somewhat difficult. But it only does so to the normal player. To a player like Noaani or Azherae, I'd assume, that content will at best be somewhere below their favorite top quality pve.

So a theoretical guild (or a dozen of them) with people like those two can easily clear anything that Intrepid would find difficult. And those guilds would do so with the help of trackers (even if Intrepid say that they're banned). And Intrepid would now have a hugeass dilemma in front of them: do they keep making even harder content to keep those top players in the game or do they say "ya see, there's your <10% who managed to beat it! We succeeded in our goal".

If they go the first route, they're now concentrating a ton of their dev time on coming up with unique and super hard content that only those top guilds will be able to clear. And this will be repeated for each new content release. And Intrepid will either need to release new abilities or gear to help everyone else beat the last top difficulty content or they can say "fuck you" to 90% of the playerbase and keep the power creep at a slow pace. There's a third way of "let's make a ton of easier content too, so that 90% can play as well", but at some point you'll hit the devtime limit wall and will need to choose a path.

If they go the second route, they keep the difficulty at what they consider a perfect lvl, but lose the top 10% of players in the process (cause they got bored). And now there's a question of "will the other players follow them", because majority of normal people follow trends. And if there's a new trend from the trendy people (the strong dudes at the top and the content creators that work with them) of "we're leaving cause this shit is boring now" - there's quite a high chance that the majority will start doubting whether the game is really fun, which usually destabilizes the community and snowballs to "death of the game" sooner or later.

So overall we have a choice of "power creep the fuck out of your game if you don't want to lose players" and "disregard the top players that you attracted with a silly promise, which can potentially lead to failure". Imo both are kinda bad, so what would be the solutions?

The easiest solution would be to backtrack the difficulty promise as soon as possible. You'll lose some nerds now, but you won't risk losing a ton of people on release. And we all know how popular WoW was back in the day, due to it being waaaay easier than the competition, so this might be a winning strat. The other solution is "ban meters" and pretend that top players won't just still use them (the ff14 way). But, as Noaani says, Intrepid would still need to balance their bosses around the people who'll most likely use meters, so the ban wouldn't matter either way, which just brings us back to sped up power creep.

Now my personal solution to this is to tell those top players "just don't use meters 4Head", but I understand that this would the same as them telling me to shut the fuck up about corruption balancing, so it all would be a pointless discussion either way.

So the only true solution imo is Intrepid removing the promised difficulty from the game, but I somehow doubt that Steven would do that. As I see it rn, we'll either get a game that lied to top pvers and lose those pvers in the process or we'll hit a pretty fast power creep within the first 1-2 years of the game. I hope I'm just being too pessimistic here, but I really don't see another result coming from this.