But I wanna confirm one thing first. You do understand that we're talking about PvE, right? Can I at least get you to promise you won't try to 'counter' this by going 'well in PvP it would be more movement!' because no one is talking about that when comparing BDO to 'old Tab Target MMOs'.
I'd still argue that L2 had at the very least as much apm as BDO in pvp, but we've been through this discussion a few times already iirc, so it'd be pointless
Well I'm happy to count on you to contribute whenever Mag returns, since it would probably be generally nicer for the forum if we eventually hashed this out (unless Mag and Noaani just 'like' spinning in circles, in which case we'd just be intruding).
Detailed conversation about MMO mechanics is the reason I, at least, am here. Why else hang out on a quiet-ish forum for an open development Alpha 1.5 MMO?
unless Mag and Noaani just 'like' spinning in circles, in which case we'd just be intruding
At this point I'm like 90% sure they do. DPS thread is the biggest example of that. They've been talking about the exact same thing, and the exact same arguments, using the exact same words pretty much every single time that thread gets resurrected.
Detailed conversation about MMO mechanics is the reason I, at least, am here. Why else hang out on a quiet-ish forum for an open development Alpha 1.5 MMO?
Honestly I got nothing better to do I mean, I do, but I'm at such a point of laziness that writing pointless stuff on the forums is more palatable than playing amazing games that're just sitting in my steam/gamepass
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I find BDO fun when I am in the mood for action combat. Another one I find fun is Neverwinter Online.
BDO can be a fun MMO, but the combat is not good for an MMO RPG.
If all you care about is the Fantasy MMO part, it's fine - especially solo.
But, if what you want is the RPG aspect of synergizing your ability with group mates, it's horrible - because you don't need to synergize anything with group mates in BDO. All you need to do is button-mash.
Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao.
If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources.
Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources.
Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks.
This is false.
Right, so, you haven't played the game I am talking about.
I have played both BDO (even if for a short amount of time), and the game I am talking about.
As such, since I was making a direct comparison between two games (even if one of them was not named), you are in quite literally no position to have an opinion on this matter.
Your comment does not express experience wise anything of the nature of BDO. But you are free to share gameplay clips on multiple tab target mmorpgs and say their combat is faster and requires better positioning with proof.
Saying bad takes is really pointless, games are out there show gameplay.
The problem with gameplay clips is that they don't actually show how many decisions are being made, and often also don't show how many buttons are being pressed.
Also, as I have said to you many, many times, the game I am talking about - in the time period I am talking about - does not have clips posted to YouTube. For a start, we are talking about a time before YouTube even existed, and LONG before it was even remotely popular.
Further, people that play games for reasons other than "oh look at all the pretty lights" don't tend to be as vain as those that do play for such reasons, and so don't tend to record themselves playing games.
Why would we?
Fact is, if you don't/haven't play such games, you have no idea at all as to what is involved.
You are absolutely free to espouse the better aspects of BDO all you want, have at it as far as I am concerned. However, you are in no position to compare it to a game you have never played.
You can show gameplay clips on games it that in truth they are much slower, it is simply easier for you not to show them. You don't need all decision making to be clear in a clip it s about showing some element of the gameplay you can use to point out as reference.
ie * if you are talking about amount of skills used you do not need decision making explained you need to show and say a few things on what is going on and how it is faster. The same thing can be said for positioning.
You talk about people have not played these order games, those older games are dated and the combat is just as dated and slower with the only one you bring up being EQ2 since I've played EQ1. And jumping in EQ2 for a bit I can tell its no where near BDO.
Fact is I've played a ton of tab target mmorpgs since everquest and that is exactly why I know the seen of those games do not equal BDO
EVEN if the mmorpg is dated and old you can show clips for any of those games they all exist. If it is faster you don't need a perfect clip either any type of content should do so it is "better" on a general scale with what you are saying. Which is false because all those older games are slower.
You know what, I'll take this bet.
I got time.
I expect that the only think you will say is 'slower' is the fact that in old Tab Target games the character doesn't have to move, but this is true in BDO too, depending on what class you're playing. I don't move on Nova to fight Kutum, I don't need to move to fight Dim Tree on Kuno, the movements happen because the animation moves you (and sometimes puts you right back where you started) so that it feels dynamic. I move against Dim Tree because it's more fun, not because it's necessary.
So looking past the fact that you have the option to move, they're the same and I DO have videos.
But I wanna confirm one thing first. You do understand that we're talking about PvE, right? Can I at least get you to promise you won't try to 'counter' this by going 'well in PvP it would be more movement!' because no one is talking about that when comparing BDO to 'old Tab Target MMOs'.
Whenever i talk about content in BDO or gameplay it is in relation to PvP. As PvE content in BDO is brain dead and doesn't require much.
I find BDO fun when I am in the mood for action combat. Another one I find fun is Neverwinter Online.
BDO can be a fun MMO, but the combat is not good for an MMO RPG.
If all you care about is the Fantasy MMO part, it's fine - especially solo.
But, if what you want is the RPG aspect of synergizing your ability with group mates, it's horrible - because you don't need to synergize anything with group mates in BDO. All you need to do is button-mash.
If you are doing group content in BDO you are trolling yourself and wasting your time since you get no loot lol. It is truly a single player mmorpg. Though I'm sure they have changed some stuff since its been years since I played it,.
unless Mag and Noaani just 'like' spinning in circles, in which case we'd just be intruding
At this point I'm like 90% sure they do. DPS thread is the biggest example of that. They've been talking about the exact same thing, and the exact same arguments, using the exact same words pretty much every single time that thread gets resurrected.
Detailed conversation about MMO mechanics is the reason I, at least, am here. Why else hang out on a quiet-ish forum for an open development Alpha 1.5 MMO?
Honestly I got nothing better to do I mean, I do, but I'm at such a point of laziness that writing pointless stuff on the forums is more palatable than playing amazing games that're just sitting in my steam/gamepass
I hate running in circles, if I see actual facts backed by gameplay i will accept it if it makes sense to me and the points i bring up that agree / counter it.
I'd rather be shown the exact point (with gameplay) than talk about what one person thinks as it just becomes bias. We have games out there we played, if it exist we can show and talk about it.
Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao.
If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources.
Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources.
Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks.
This is false.
Right, so, you haven't played the game I am talking about.
I have played both BDO (even if for a short amount of time), and the game I am talking about.
As such, since I was making a direct comparison between two games (even if one of them was not named), you are in quite literally no position to have an opinion on this matter.
Your comment does not express experience wise anything of the nature of BDO. But you are free to share gameplay clips on multiple tab target mmorpgs and say their combat is faster and requires better positioning with proof.
Saying bad takes is really pointless, games are out there show gameplay.
The problem with gameplay clips is that they don't actually show how many decisions are being made, and often also don't show how many buttons are being pressed.
Also, as I have said to you many, many times, the game I am talking about - in the time period I am talking about - does not have clips posted to YouTube. For a start, we are talking about a time before YouTube even existed, and LONG before it was even remotely popular.
Further, people that play games for reasons other than "oh look at all the pretty lights" don't tend to be as vain as those that do play for such reasons, and so don't tend to record themselves playing games.
Why would we?
Fact is, if you don't/haven't play such games, you have no idea at all as to what is involved.
You are absolutely free to espouse the better aspects of BDO all you want, have at it as far as I am concerned. However, you are in no position to compare it to a game you have never played.
You can show gameplay clips on games it that in truth they are much slower, it is simply easier for you not to show them. You don't need all decision making to be clear in a clip it s about showing some element of the gameplay you can use to point out as reference.
ie * if you are talking about amount of skills used you do not need decision making explained you need to show and say a few things on what is going on and how it is faster. The same thing can be said for positioning.
You talk about people have not played these order games, those older games are dated and the combat is just as dated and slower with the only one you bring up being EQ2 since I've played EQ1. And jumping in EQ2 for a bit I can tell its no where near BDO.
Fact is I've played a ton of tab target mmorpgs since everquest and that is exactly why I know the seen of those games do not equal BDO
EVEN if the mmorpg is dated and old you can show clips for any of those games they all exist. If it is faster you don't need a perfect clip either any type of content should do so it is "better" on a general scale with what you are saying. Which is false because all those older games are slower.
You know what, I'll take this bet.
I got time.
I expect that the only think you will say is 'slower' is the fact that in old Tab Target games the character doesn't have to move, but this is true in BDO too, depending on what class you're playing. I don't move on Nova to fight Kutum, I don't need to move to fight Dim Tree on Kuno, the movements happen because the animation moves you (and sometimes puts you right back where you started) so that it feels dynamic. I move against Dim Tree because it's more fun, not because it's necessary.
So looking past the fact that you have the option to move, they're the same and I DO have videos.
But I wanna confirm one thing first. You do understand that we're talking about PvE, right? Can I at least get you to promise you won't try to 'counter' this by going 'well in PvP it would be more movement!' because no one is talking about that when comparing BDO to 'old Tab Target MMOs'.
Whenever i talk about content in BDO or gameplay it is in relation to PvP. As PvE content in BDO is brain dead and doesn't require much.
Oh ok, so you wanted footage of Tab Target MMO PvP?
Or did you want to have someone who is familiar with a PvE Tab Target MMO extrapolate how PvP would work and why the speed would be similar?
Or are you just, as Noaani assumed, talking about things you are making big assumptions about? Because you talked about playing EQ2 a little, but you can't know how fast or complex EQ2 PvP is from playing it a little, I would assume you also thought that.
For example, the reason I don't talk about GW2 is that I have not played enough GW2 to make comparisons, so I would leave that to someone like Arya or Blindside.
Perhaps you can bring your own videos of you doing mid-high level EQ2 PvP and explain to us how it is insufficient?
This thread helps me further see the difference between each forum goers knowledge of the human brain and how it processes data.
It's almost a moot point talking about combat when most people aren't studied and read in the right topics.
It generally seems to me that most people who get into these things do in fact have knowledge of it, or at least come to the generally correct conclusions, I'd moreso say it's the minority (out of the already limited forum) who lack the understanding of it.
Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao.
If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources.
Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources.
Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks.
This is false.
Right, so, you haven't played the game I am talking about.
I have played both BDO (even if for a short amount of time), and the game I am talking about.
As such, since I was making a direct comparison between two games (even if one of them was not named), you are in quite literally no position to have an opinion on this matter.
Your comment does not express experience wise anything of the nature of BDO. But you are free to share gameplay clips on multiple tab target mmorpgs and say their combat is faster and requires better positioning with proof.
Saying bad takes is really pointless, games are out there show gameplay.
The problem with gameplay clips is that they don't actually show how many decisions are being made, and often also don't show how many buttons are being pressed.
Also, as I have said to you many, many times, the game I am talking about - in the time period I am talking about - does not have clips posted to YouTube. For a start, we are talking about a time before YouTube even existed, and LONG before it was even remotely popular.
Further, people that play games for reasons other than "oh look at all the pretty lights" don't tend to be as vain as those that do play for such reasons, and so don't tend to record themselves playing games.
Why would we?
Fact is, if you don't/haven't play such games, you have no idea at all as to what is involved.
You are absolutely free to espouse the better aspects of BDO all you want, have at it as far as I am concerned. However, you are in no position to compare it to a game you have never played.
You can show gameplay clips on games it that in truth they are much slower, it is simply easier for you not to show them. You don't need all decision making to be clear in a clip it s about showing some element of the gameplay you can use to point out as reference.
ie * if you are talking about amount of skills used you do not need decision making explained you need to show and say a few things on what is going on and how it is faster. The same thing can be said for positioning.
You talk about people have not played these order games, those older games are dated and the combat is just as dated and slower with the only one you bring up being EQ2 since I've played EQ1. And jumping in EQ2 for a bit I can tell its no where near BDO.
Fact is I've played a ton of tab target mmorpgs since everquest and that is exactly why I know the seen of those games do not equal BDO
EVEN if the mmorpg is dated and old you can show clips for any of those games they all exist. If it is faster you don't need a perfect clip either any type of content should do so it is "better" on a general scale with what you are saying. Which is false because all those older games are slower.
You know what, I'll take this bet.
I got time.
I expect that the only think you will say is 'slower' is the fact that in old Tab Target games the character doesn't have to move, but this is true in BDO too, depending on what class you're playing. I don't move on Nova to fight Kutum, I don't need to move to fight Dim Tree on Kuno, the movements happen because the animation moves you (and sometimes puts you right back where you started) so that it feels dynamic. I move against Dim Tree because it's more fun, not because it's necessary.
So looking past the fact that you have the option to move, they're the same and I DO have videos.
But I wanna confirm one thing first. You do understand that we're talking about PvE, right? Can I at least get you to promise you won't try to 'counter' this by going 'well in PvP it would be more movement!' because no one is talking about that when comparing BDO to 'old Tab Target MMOs'.
Whenever i talk about content in BDO or gameplay it is in relation to PvP. As PvE content in BDO is brain dead and doesn't require much.
Oh ok, so you wanted footage of Tab Target MMO PvP?
Or did you want to have someone who is familiar with a PvE Tab Target MMO extrapolate how PvP would work and why the speed would be similar?
Or are you just, as Noaani assumed, talking about things you are making big assumptions about? Because you talked about playing EQ2 a little, but you can't know how fast or complex EQ2 PvP is from playing it a little, I would assume you also thought that.
For example, the reason I don't talk about GW2 is that I have not played enough GW2 to make comparisons, so I would leave that to someone like Arya or Blindside.
Perhaps you can bring your own videos of you doing mid-high level EQ2 PvP and explain to us how it is insufficient?
It is this simple show gameplay as reference, compare it to both and explain why one is more than the other.
Both games exist and so does the gameplay on youtube as well.
Explain why you feel speed is more with proof, explain why positioning matters with proof and reference as well. Then we can have a proper disccusion.
The fact everyone is scared to show gameplay is a red flag to me for how their points will even hold up even more so when they say its faster on a whole so there shouldn't be a clip to worry about in worrying it will read wrong.
The most easy one I'd happy to see why position matters more than BDO (as your dmg is based on positioning in this game) with reference clips to help get across the point.
This thread helps me further see the difference between each forum goers knowledge of the human brain and how it processes data.
It's almost a moot point talking about combat when most people aren't studied and read in the right topics.
It generally seems to me that most people who get into these things do in fact have knowledge of it, or at least come to the generally correct conclusions, I'd moreso say it's the minority (out of the already limited forum) who lack the understanding of it.
In short, don't pick on Mag7.
I'm sure they understand the fundamentals, but we can get deep into the weeds such as data complexity, difficulty, and decision making and how that impacts what some of us would call good combat.
Over really obnoxiously bright highly colorized animations and such.
So I will remain jaded and in disbelief that most people can have that conversation.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
It's really more about which decisions the players like to focus on and what each player considers to be be "good" or "fun" combat.
And that is going to be subjective to playstyle preferences.
Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao.
If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources.
Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources.
Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks.
This is false.
Right, so, you haven't played the game I am talking about.
I have played both BDO (even if for a short amount of time), and the game I am talking about.
As such, since I was making a direct comparison between two games (even if one of them was not named), you are in quite literally no position to have an opinion on this matter.
Your comment does not express experience wise anything of the nature of BDO. But you are free to share gameplay clips on multiple tab target mmorpgs and say their combat is faster and requires better positioning with proof.
Saying bad takes is really pointless, games are out there show gameplay.
The problem with gameplay clips is that they don't actually show how many decisions are being made, and often also don't show how many buttons are being pressed.
Also, as I have said to you many, many times, the game I am talking about - in the time period I am talking about - does not have clips posted to YouTube. For a start, we are talking about a time before YouTube even existed, and LONG before it was even remotely popular.
Further, people that play games for reasons other than "oh look at all the pretty lights" don't tend to be as vain as those that do play for such reasons, and so don't tend to record themselves playing games.
Why would we?
Fact is, if you don't/haven't play such games, you have no idea at all as to what is involved.
You are absolutely free to espouse the better aspects of BDO all you want, have at it as far as I am concerned. However, you are in no position to compare it to a game you have never played.
You can show gameplay clips on games it that in truth they are much slower, it is simply easier for you not to show them. You don't need all decision making to be clear in a clip it s about showing some element of the gameplay you can use to point out as reference.
ie * if you are talking about amount of skills used you do not need decision making explained you need to show and say a few things on what is going on and how it is faster. The same thing can be said for positioning.
You talk about people have not played these order games, those older games are dated and the combat is just as dated and slower with the only one you bring up being EQ2 since I've played EQ1. And jumping in EQ2 for a bit I can tell its no where near BDO.
Fact is I've played a ton of tab target mmorpgs since everquest and that is exactly why I know the seen of those games do not equal BDO
EVEN if the mmorpg is dated and old you can show clips for any of those games they all exist. If it is faster you don't need a perfect clip either any type of content should do so it is "better" on a general scale with what you are saying. Which is false because all those older games are slower.
You know what, I'll take this bet.
I got time.
I expect that the only think you will say is 'slower' is the fact that in old Tab Target games the character doesn't have to move, but this is true in BDO too, depending on what class you're playing. I don't move on Nova to fight Kutum, I don't need to move to fight Dim Tree on Kuno, the movements happen because the animation moves you (and sometimes puts you right back where you started) so that it feels dynamic. I move against Dim Tree because it's more fun, not because it's necessary.
So looking past the fact that you have the option to move, they're the same and I DO have videos.
But I wanna confirm one thing first. You do understand that we're talking about PvE, right? Can I at least get you to promise you won't try to 'counter' this by going 'well in PvP it would be more movement!' because no one is talking about that when comparing BDO to 'old Tab Target MMOs'.
Whenever i talk about content in BDO or gameplay it is in relation to PvP. As PvE content in BDO is brain dead and doesn't require much.
Oh ok, so you wanted footage of Tab Target MMO PvP?
Or did you want to have someone who is familiar with a PvE Tab Target MMO extrapolate how PvP would work and why the speed would be similar?
Or are you just, as Noaani assumed, talking about things you are making big assumptions about? Because you talked about playing EQ2 a little, but you can't know how fast or complex EQ2 PvP is from playing it a little, I would assume you also thought that.
For example, the reason I don't talk about GW2 is that I have not played enough GW2 to make comparisons, so I would leave that to someone like Arya or Blindside.
Perhaps you can bring your own videos of you doing mid-high level EQ2 PvP and explain to us how it is insufficient?
It is this simple show gameplay as reference, compare it to both and explain why one is more than the other.
Both games exist and so does the gameplay on youtube as well.
Explain why you feel speed is more with proof, explain why positioning matters with proof and reference as well. Then we can have a proper disccusion.
The fact everyone is scared to show gameplay is a red flag to me for how their points will even hold up even more so when they say its faster on a whole so there shouldn't be a clip to worry about in worrying it will read wrong.
The most easy one I'd happy to see why position matters more than BDO (as your dmg is based on positioning in this game) with reference clips to help get across the point.
Ok, but no one was making THAT point, in fact you're right, it's 'easy' because it's the one thing that one game type has and the other doesn't.
Nothing in this thread has been about 'positioning' in BDO, because not all classes actually need to position in BDO, it's you that brought that up.
I can explain 'speed' though, so let's do that. I won't say much because I'm not yet convinced that you won't just redirect into 'positioning'.
This fight gets serious at the 2 minute mark. This player is reacting to what that boss (intended to emulate a player of the exact same class as whoever fights it) is doing faster than most people who don't play that class can even track. Note I said 'reacting'.
Compare this to PvP between two BDO classes that generally fight head on or use large dashes.
The Sage and Valkyrie are doing less, but it looks like they're doing more. The Valkyrie in particular doesn't even 'look' like that very much. It's class dependent.
And a separate comment that I think might be the clearest way I have ever summarized this (go me).
In a Tab Target game like FFXI, if you have the OPTION to cast an ability, and 'decide not to cast that ability yet so that your character does their autoattack, because it is not necessary', it is equivalent to the same situation in BDO, where you have the option to use a skill, but decide not to use that skill and instead use your Primary Attack.
The difference between these two things is that in one game you had to press a button and in the other you did not. You don't make less decisions, you press less buttons.
And here's pvp with high lvl of positioning in a click-to-move tab target game. You can hear how much he's clicking, and you can pay attention to the targetting, because he's playing a class that removes it and vs 2 classes that do the same. They're daggers, so they have backstabs, which pushes you to move to your enemy's back. You can see that they're trying to move around so that the enemy can't get behind them.
And I'd say this is maybe ~80% skill lvl. Retargetting could be faster and the other dudes seem to get lost with it too. And this is from an older version of the game. The newer versions have even more detargetting methods and even more movement options, so this is not even the limit to apm.
edit: oh and btw, the fact that his hp doesn't go down much is related to positioning too. The enemy class has low accuracy on their abilities if they're used directly to the face or even to the front 180 degrees, so with proper positioning you can limit the incoming dmg by a lot.
APM is not indicative of good combat unless its micro management intensive like a RTS.
BDO combat fails because it is based on the titan theory. It matters not if there are 20 players or 2 players, the skill sets do not change although the skill order might.
I would rather take EQ or FF11 where the situational disposition can change the whole fight dynamic. Sure, you might always take the same skills to each fight, but, the fight in situ will dictate how you use the toon.
And here's pvp with high lvl of positioning in a click-to-move tab target game. You can hear how much he's clicking, and you can pay attention to the targetting, because he's playing a class that removes it and vs 2 classes that do the same. They're daggers, so they have backstabs, which pushes you to move to your enemy's back. You can see that they're trying to move around so that the enemy can't get behind them.
And I'd say this is maybe ~80% skill lvl. Retargetting could be faster and the other dudes seem to get lost with it too. And this is from an older version of the game. The newer versions have even more detargetting methods and even more movement options, so this is not even the limit to apm.
edit: oh and btw, the fact that his hp doesn't go down much is related to positioning too. The enemy class has low accuracy on their abilities if they're used directly to the face or even to the front 180 degrees, so with proper positioning you can limit the incoming dmg by a lot.
This one makes it even more obvious than the FFXI one, Mag, in case that one felt off to you.
I actually completely like and support games where you do have to make the choice to 'press the button yourself', but I'm not a person who believes 'yeah because I have to press a button myself instead of choosing to not press a different button and letting the game do it for me' that depth has been added.
I'll even add my own BDO fight for the same reasoning. Just to clarify a specific small thing, since as you pointed out, BDO PvE isn't that hard.
I consider this 'harder' than fighting a Valkyrie though, if I am trying to never get hit (which is the basic requirement of BDO PvP, right?). Nevertheless, BDO is 'making me press the button', but really I could just 'tap block occasionally' when it swings and then quick-cancel into my attacks, I am repositioning here for fun.
If I were fighting a Nova, Shai, or Valkyrie, it's the same to me, I'd reposition moreso for 'fun', they will turn faster than I could reasonably get behind them without a skill, unless of course they're not very good at all in which case they died another way. If anything, I reposition so that they think they have to and waste movement skills that I can whiff punish.
If it was a Guardian, I'd have to move, but not because 'positioning matters', only timing actually matters there, because the whole thing is the same as when Dim goes for the attack that flashes it red (for those unfamiliar). It's just a huge multihit AoE and my only requirement is 'don't be standing there while it goes off'. I die way more to those players because I can't tell that the AoE has actually ended than anything else, so at that point yeah, I want MORE flashiness so I don't have to learn the frame data on Guardian's AoE.
Other than that, fighting Guardian looks like fighting Dim except that they move more and give me more openings. I lose to the ones who know to just watch my movement and not move themselves because them trying to move just gets them killed.
There is a concern when a game has fast combat and no addons, which is not knowing or being hard to find out how you died in 1 second. Sometimes in GW2 we die in 1-2 seconds and this death was avoidable, but scrolling through rampant lines of text from the combat log it is not easy debunking every death
PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
And here's pvp with high lvl of positioning in a click-to-move tab target game. You can hear how much he's clicking, and you can pay attention to the targetting, because he's playing a class that removes it and vs 2 classes that do the same. They're daggers, so they have backstabs, which pushes you to move to your enemy's back. You can see that they're trying to move around so that the enemy can't get behind them.
And I'd say this is maybe ~80% skill lvl. Retargetting could be faster and the other dudes seem to get lost with it too. And this is from an older version of the game. The newer versions have even more detargetting methods and even more movement options, so this is not even the limit to apm.
edit: oh and btw, the fact that his hp doesn't go down much is related to positioning too. The enemy class has low accuracy on their abilities if they're used directly to the face or even to the front 180 degrees, so with proper positioning you can limit the incoming dmg by a lot.
This one makes it even more obvious than the FFXI one, Mag, in case that one felt off to you.
I actually completely like and support games where you do have to make the choice to 'press the button yourself', but I'm not a person who believes 'yeah because I have to press a button myself instead of choosing to not press a different button and letting the game do it for me' that depth has been added.
I'll even add my own BDO fight for the same reasoning. Just to clarify a specific small thing, since as you pointed out, BDO PvE isn't that hard.
I consider this 'harder' than fighting a Valkyrie though, if I am trying to never get hit (which is the basic requirement of BDO PvP, right?). Nevertheless, BDO is 'making me press the button', but really I could just 'tap block occasionally' when it swings and then quick-cancel into my attacks, I am repositioning here for fun.
If I were fighting a Nova, Shai, or Valkyrie, it's the same to me, I'd reposition moreso for 'fun', they will turn faster than I could reasonably get behind them without a skill, unless of course they're not very good at all in which case they died another way. If anything, I reposition so that they think they have to and waste movement skills that I can whiff punish.
If it was a Guardian, I'd have to move, but not because 'positioning matters', only timing actually matters there, because the whole thing is the same as when Dim goes for the attack that flashes it red (for those unfamiliar). It's just a huge multihit AoE and my only requirement is 'don't be standing there while it goes off'. I die way more to those players because I can't tell that the AoE has actually ended than anything else, so at that point yeah, I want MORE flashiness so I don't have to learn the frame data on Guardian's AoE.
Other than that, fighting Guardian looks like fighting Dim except that they move more and give me more openings. I lose to the ones who know to just watch my movement and not move themselves because them trying to move just gets them killed.
This really reminds me of the mobility bros I've encountered across numerous titles who think it's hard when in reality running and gunning is one of the most simplistic forms of combat. I think its a disservice that there are classes that mobile, diminishes the decision making.
I like Valheim because it has the potential to combine many different types of data into complex tactical and strategical decision making.
I actually completely like and support games where you do have to make the choice to 'press the button yourself', but I'm not a person who believes 'yeah because I have to press a button myself instead of choosing to not press a different button and letting the game do it for me' that depth has been added.
If the MC of the video was a mage, it would even be "try NOT to press the button and instead press another one", cause you gotta click on a detargeted enemy, but if you then click again too fast your character will try auto-attacking that enemy. And mages don't do shit with auto-attacks, but they completely ruin your positioning and can even delay your casts. So you can't just spam click to regain the targetting.
In other words you gotta avoid pressing the button again. This also kinda applies when the dagger is getting kited by a mage. You gotta click to move, click to target and most of the time avoid clicking on the target itself because you wanna use your big abilities instead of doing auto-hits.
I haven't played enough BDO to know for sure, but that kind of decision tree and load seems more than BDO's "you use an ability that moves you in the direction you wanted and quite often that ability will be an aoe hit that will touch the enemy if direction was good enough".
There is a concern when a game has fast combat and no addons, which is not knowing or being hard to find out how you died in 1 second. Sometimes in GW2 we die in 1-2 seconds and this death was avoidable, but scrolling through rampant lines of text from the combat log it is not easy debunking every death
Right. In that FFXI fight, it would in fact be possible for some people who don't read as fast or easily track everything going on while stressed, to die without realizing, because the game doesn't show you every buff that your opponent has on them.
Red Mages need to dispel certain ones or they will end up in bad situations, and Dispel isn't even your choice, so you have to adapt to 'I can't dispel because I let the mob put up 2 less important buffs already and now if I Dispel I only have a 1 in 3 chance of countering the correct one, so I have to bind or sleep them to buy time to get all the Dispels and put my defenses up.
If you lose track of this, you'll do something like 'waste a Dispel cast on removing something you could have overcome in some other way', lose your rhythm, and die.
I could detail the decisions in the BDO fight in six lines, and if the TTK was higher, those six lines would repeat (see Dim Tree fight).
It would take me at least 100 lines to explain the FFXI fight, and that's 'if I took the combat log and then just put commentary after every meaningful decision. I'd add 100 lines of commentary to the log itself just to explain it.
This doesn't compare at all to BDO's 'dodge around for 6 seconds and then die in 2 or maybe get away to repeat the 6 seconds of dodging if you're lucky'.
I actually completely like and support games where you do have to make the choice to 'press the button yourself', but I'm not a person who believes 'yeah because I have to press a button myself instead of choosing to not press a different button and letting the game do it for me' that depth has been added.
If the MC of the video was a mage, it would even be "try NOT to press the button and instead press another one", cause you gotta click on a detargeted enemy, but if you then click again too fast your character will try auto-attacking that enemy. And mages don't do shit with auto-attacks, but they completely ruin your positioning and can even delay your casts. So you can't just spam click to regain the targetting.
In other words you gotta avoid pressing the button again. This also kinda applies when the dagger is getting kited by a mage. You gotta click to move, click to target and most of the time avoid clicking on the target itself because you wanna use your big abilities instead of doing auto-hits.
I haven't played enough BDO to know for sure, but that kind of decision tree and load seems more than BDO's "you use an ability that moves you in the direction you wanted and quite often that ability will be an aoe hit that will touch the enemy if direction was good enough".
Well, I believe that Kunoichi is among the highest 'direct precision, lower AoE options' classes in BDO, so you can use the videos given as your data for that.
Compare the Sage's actionset (throwing giant lightning spears, surrounding self in AoE thunderbolts, etc) to mine (honestly still AoE but at least a few things have to be factored such as, as Mag says, getting behind the opponent, though 'behind' is like a 75 degree cone, and usually less massive).
That fight was quite automatic to me, because it's just conditioned reactions, I had to make an effort to do three specific things 'incorrectly' and to NOT just plink-block its hits and actually try to just 'dodge and usually be behind it to get the back attack damage',
And even then I still basically can 'zone out and do that'. PvP is not different, it comes out exactly the same as the Sage thing 'Did your CC actually hit me through my Evasion? Did it get through my resistance too? Ok I die, let's go again, 15 seconds!'
I cannot zone out against Maat, I'm honestly surprised that player won that, but even 'explaining why them winning was partially luck' would be like 8 paragraphs.
I find BDO fun when I am in the mood for action combat. Another one I find fun is Neverwinter Online.
BDO can be a fun MMO, but the combat is not good for an MMO RPG.
If all you care about is the Fantasy MMO part, it's fine - especially solo.
But, if what you want is the RPG aspect of synergizing your ability with group mates, it's horrible - because you don't need to synergize anything with group mates in BDO. All you need to do is button-mash.
If you are doing group content in BDO you are trolling yourself and wasting your time since you get no loot lol. It is truly a single player mmorpg. Though I'm sure they have changed some stuff since its been years since I played it,.
And apparently I missed this one, but at this point I don't care since we're due for another 'Combat Discussion' thread anyway I guess.
How many years are we talking 'since you played it', Mag7? I'm trying not to make assumptions here.
The are sources from a popular mmo forum in the post you're quoting? Idk if you didn't catch that but it was there when you replied to me. I'm not sure what other sources you want but I have a feeling you're going to say one of the most populated MMO forums online isn't a good enough place to garner general audience feedback
I mean, Reddit is less reliable than Wikipedia.
At the very least, this thread is proof that there is a good amount of general disdain towards BDO's combat. I see no reason at all to need any more proof than that to point out to you that BDO does not have widely (nor even generally, imo) well regarded combat, let alone almost unanimously.
Now, you are free to argue the same with my point as to the game having almost unanimously panned combat - but I was obviously being facetious.
When the discussion is about the general publics opinion, reddit is literally one of the best sources in that case, with Wikipedia being the worst lmao. We're asking for the MMO communitys opinion on a game, so posting one of the most popular MMO forums threads asking this exact question is a great source for peoples opinion.
And I have no intention of changing anyone's opinion on either this games combat or BDOS or anything else. Just posting my opinion, and linking to hundreds of others that share the same opinion. 😄
Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao.
If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources.
Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources.
Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks.
This is false.
Right, so, you haven't played the game I am talking about.
I have played both BDO (even if for a short amount of time), and the game I am talking about.
As such, since I was making a direct comparison between two games (even if one of them was not named), you are in quite literally no position to have an opinion on this matter.
Your comment does not express experience wise anything of the nature of BDO. But you are free to share gameplay clips on multiple tab target mmorpgs and say their combat is faster and requires better positioning with proof.
Saying bad takes is really pointless, games are out there show gameplay.
The problem with gameplay clips is that they don't actually show how many decisions are being made, and often also don't show how many buttons are being pressed.
Also, as I have said to you many, many times, the game I am talking about - in the time period I am talking about - does not have clips posted to YouTube. For a start, we are talking about a time before YouTube even existed, and LONG before it was even remotely popular.
Further, people that play games for reasons other than "oh look at all the pretty lights" don't tend to be as vain as those that do play for such reasons, and so don't tend to record themselves playing games.
Why would we?
Fact is, if you don't/haven't play such games, you have no idea at all as to what is involved.
You are absolutely free to espouse the better aspects of BDO all you want, have at it as far as I am concerned. However, you are in no position to compare it to a game you have never played.
You can show gameplay clips on games it that in truth they are much slower, it is simply easier for you not to show them. You don't need all decision making to be clear in a clip it s about showing some element of the gameplay you can use to point out as reference.
ie * if you are talking about amount of skills used you do not need decision making explained you need to show and say a few things on what is going on and how it is faster. The same thing can be said for positioning.
You talk about people have not played these order games, those older games are dated and the combat is just as dated and slower with the only one you bring up being EQ2 since I've played EQ1. And jumping in EQ2 for a bit I can tell its no where near BDO.
Fact is I've played a ton of tab target mmorpgs since everquest and that is exactly why I know the seen of those games do not equal BDO
EVEN if the mmorpg is dated and old you can show clips for any of those games they all exist. If it is faster you don't need a perfect clip either any type of content should do so it is "better" on a general scale with what you are saying. Which is false because all those older games are slower.
You know what, I'll take this bet.
I got time.
I expect that the only think you will say is 'slower' is the fact that in old Tab Target games the character doesn't have to move, but this is true in BDO too, depending on what class you're playing. I don't move on Nova to fight Kutum, I don't need to move to fight Dim Tree on Kuno, the movements happen because the animation moves you (and sometimes puts you right back where you started) so that it feels dynamic. I move against Dim Tree because it's more fun, not because it's necessary.
So looking past the fact that you have the option to move, they're the same and I DO have videos.
But I wanna confirm one thing first. You do understand that we're talking about PvE, right? Can I at least get you to promise you won't try to 'counter' this by going 'well in PvP it would be more movement!' because no one is talking about that when comparing BDO to 'old Tab Target MMOs'.
Whenever i talk about content in BDO or gameplay it is in relation to PvP. As PvE content in BDO is brain dead and doesn't require much.
Oh ok, so you wanted footage of Tab Target MMO PvP?
Or did you want to have someone who is familiar with a PvE Tab Target MMO extrapolate how PvP would work and why the speed would be similar?
Or are you just, as Noaani assumed, talking about things you are making big assumptions about? Because you talked about playing EQ2 a little, but you can't know how fast or complex EQ2 PvP is from playing it a little, I would assume you also thought that.
For example, the reason I don't talk about GW2 is that I have not played enough GW2 to make comparisons, so I would leave that to someone like Arya or Blindside.
Perhaps you can bring your own videos of you doing mid-high level EQ2 PvP and explain to us how it is insufficient?
It is this simple show gameplay as reference, compare it to both and explain why one is more than the other.
Both games exist and so does the gameplay on youtube as well.
Explain why you feel speed is more with proof, explain why positioning matters with proof and reference as well. Then we can have a proper disccusion.
The fact everyone is scared to show gameplay is a red flag to me for how their points will even hold up even more so when they say its faster on a whole so there shouldn't be a clip to worry about in worrying it will read wrong.
The most easy one I'd happy to see why position matters more than BDO (as your dmg is based on positioning in this game) with reference clips to help get across the point.
Ok, but no one was making THAT point, in fact you're right, it's 'easy' because it's the one thing that one game type has and the other doesn't.
Nothing in this thread has been about 'positioning' in BDO, because not all classes actually need to position in BDO, it's you that brought that up.
I can explain 'speed' though, so let's do that. I won't say much because I'm not yet convinced that you won't just redirect into 'positioning'.
This fight gets serious at the 2 minute mark. This player is reacting to what that boss (intended to emulate a player of the exact same class as whoever fights it) is doing faster than most people who don't play that class can even track. Note I said 'reacting'.
Compare this to PvP between two BDO classes that generally fight head on or use large dashes.
The Sage and Valkyrie are doing less, but it looks like they're doing more. The Valkyrie in particular doesn't even 'look' like that very much. It's class dependent.
Comment right here saying BDO positioning is not as important, you are free to debunk it with bdo if you want.
Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks.
Continuing on (not about positioning stuff)
Honestly it doesn't look that fast to me if we are talking about be it tab or action which you need to do button wise. There is plenty of reaction you need to do, in bdo between using your movement it is not just simply dash and win. Managing your protections, as well as trying to get damage in or cc between the gaps of your enemies. Managing your buffs and stamina so you can do maximum dmg output.
It is a lot of cat and mouse with BDO and trying to keep track of them and land your hits on them as you need to have general aim and positioning to be effective with it.
If we were to also have a log the same way our game does with every detail BDO would be running down like a streaming chat with all the constant inputs. With my comment to the one above saying BDO has no substance and everything about tab target games are more in depth combat wise than bdo is not true lol.
Whenever i talk about content in BDO or gameplay it is in relation to PvP. As PvE content in BDO is brain dead and doesn't require much.
And I am talking about top end PvE, where EQ2 does require a shitload.
You said you essentially dabbled in EQ2, what you didnt do is get a few expansions in, and on to the top end in terms of gear and content where things are quite literally more than 4 times the pace of level raid 50 content - which itself is more than twice the pace of level 20 raid content.
Hell, I'd be surprised if you even looked at level 20 raid content.
Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao.
If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources.
Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources.
Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks.
This is false.
Right, so, you haven't played the game I am talking about.
I have played both BDO (even if for a short amount of time), and the game I am talking about.
As such, since I was making a direct comparison between two games (even if one of them was not named), you are in quite literally no position to have an opinion on this matter.
Your comment does not express experience wise anything of the nature of BDO. But you are free to share gameplay clips on multiple tab target mmorpgs and say their combat is faster and requires better positioning with proof.
Saying bad takes is really pointless, games are out there show gameplay.
The problem with gameplay clips is that they don't actually show how many decisions are being made, and often also don't show how many buttons are being pressed.
Also, as I have said to you many, many times, the game I am talking about - in the time period I am talking about - does not have clips posted to YouTube. For a start, we are talking about a time before YouTube even existed, and LONG before it was even remotely popular.
Further, people that play games for reasons other than "oh look at all the pretty lights" don't tend to be as vain as those that do play for such reasons, and so don't tend to record themselves playing games.
Why would we?
Fact is, if you don't/haven't play such games, you have no idea at all as to what is involved.
You are absolutely free to espouse the better aspects of BDO all you want, have at it as far as I am concerned. However, you are in no position to compare it to a game you have never played.
You can show gameplay clips on games it that in truth they are much slower, it is simply easier for you not to show them. You don't need all decision making to be clear in a clip it s about showing some element of the gameplay you can use to point out as reference.
ie * if you are talking about amount of skills used you do not need decision making explained you need to show and say a few things on what is going on and how it is faster. The same thing can be said for positioning.
You talk about people have not played these order games, those older games are dated and the combat is just as dated and slower with the only one you bring up being EQ2 since I've played EQ1. And jumping in EQ2 for a bit I can tell its no where near BDO.
Fact is I've played a ton of tab target mmorpgs since everquest and that is exactly why I know the seen of those games do not equal BDO
EVEN if the mmorpg is dated and old you can show clips for any of those games they all exist. If it is faster you don't need a perfect clip either any type of content should do so it is "better" on a general scale with what you are saying. Which is false because all those older games are slower.
You know what, I'll take this bet.
I got time.
I expect that the only think you will say is 'slower' is the fact that in old Tab Target games the character doesn't have to move, but this is true in BDO too, depending on what class you're playing. I don't move on Nova to fight Kutum, I don't need to move to fight Dim Tree on Kuno, the movements happen because the animation moves you (and sometimes puts you right back where you started) so that it feels dynamic. I move against Dim Tree because it's more fun, not because it's necessary.
So looking past the fact that you have the option to move, they're the same and I DO have videos.
But I wanna confirm one thing first. You do understand that we're talking about PvE, right? Can I at least get you to promise you won't try to 'counter' this by going 'well in PvP it would be more movement!' because no one is talking about that when comparing BDO to 'old Tab Target MMOs'.
Whenever i talk about content in BDO or gameplay it is in relation to PvP. As PvE content in BDO is brain dead and doesn't require much.
Oh ok, so you wanted footage of Tab Target MMO PvP?
Or did you want to have someone who is familiar with a PvE Tab Target MMO extrapolate how PvP would work and why the speed would be similar?
Or are you just, as Noaani assumed, talking about things you are making big assumptions about? Because you talked about playing EQ2 a little, but you can't know how fast or complex EQ2 PvP is from playing it a little, I would assume you also thought that.
For example, the reason I don't talk about GW2 is that I have not played enough GW2 to make comparisons, so I would leave that to someone like Arya or Blindside.
Perhaps you can bring your own videos of you doing mid-high level EQ2 PvP and explain to us how it is insufficient?
It is this simple show gameplay as reference, compare it to both and explain why one is more than the other.
Both games exist and so does the gameplay on youtube as well.
Explain why you feel speed is more with proof, explain why positioning matters with proof and reference as well. Then we can have a proper disccusion.
The fact everyone is scared to show gameplay is a red flag to me for how their points will even hold up even more so when they say its faster on a whole so there shouldn't be a clip to worry about in worrying it will read wrong.
The most easy one I'd happy to see why position matters more than BDO (as your dmg is based on positioning in this game) with reference clips to help get across the point.
Ok, but no one was making THAT point, in fact you're right, it's 'easy' because it's the one thing that one game type has and the other doesn't.
Nothing in this thread has been about 'positioning' in BDO, because not all classes actually need to position in BDO, it's you that brought that up.
I can explain 'speed' though, so let's do that. I won't say much because I'm not yet convinced that you won't just redirect into 'positioning'.
This fight gets serious at the 2 minute mark. This player is reacting to what that boss (intended to emulate a player of the exact same class as whoever fights it) is doing faster than most people who don't play that class can even track. Note I said 'reacting'.
Compare this to PvP between two BDO classes that generally fight head on or use large dashes.
The Sage and Valkyrie are doing less, but it looks like they're doing more. The Valkyrie in particular doesn't even 'look' like that very much. It's class dependent.
Comment right here saying BDO positioning is not as important, you are free to debunk it with bdo if you want.
Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks.
Continuing on (not about positioning stuff)
Honestly it doesn't look that fast to me if we are talking about be it tab or action which you need to do button wise. There is plenty of reaction you need to do, in bdo between using your movement it is not just simply dash and win. Managing your protections, as well as trying to get damage in or cc between the gaps of your enemies. Managing your buffs and stamina so you can do maximum dmg output.
It is a lot of cat and mouse with BDO and trying to keep track of them and land your hits on them as you need to have general aim and positioning to be effective with it.
If we were to also have a log the same way our game does with every detail BDO would be running down like a streaming chat with all the constant inputs. With my comment to the one above saying BDO has no substance and everything about tab target games are more in depth combat wise than bdo is not true lol.
Except that you can parse the BDO fights the same way, and no, it isn't actually running down like a streaming chat faster than the FFXI one, and we know this because you can just check the skill usage.
If by 'buffs' you mean the 7-10 second ones that trigger when you use abilities, i.e. Augments, it's the same. I can agree that it's cat and mouse, what I don't agree is that it is hard. You explicitly have said that it should not be very hard before.
So, no, though I'm moreso talking to Intrepid than to you for some reason. The combat log is about the same speed in BDO, unless you are counting the 'turn to face your opponent' part, which is something that happens in any Tab Target game situation where the opponent moves, and those exist, that just wasn't the first video I gave you.
I want you to understand that I am not saying that FFXI is extremely fast. I'm saying that BDO tricks you into thinking it's faster and it is not, your character is just moving faster and you are wiggling your targeting slightly more (which you don't really need to do, it's just a little easier for specific things).
From the moment the Sage gets hit to the moment they die is 2 seconds in most of the fights they lose in that clip. Their options are 'attempt a specific burst with Super Armor' and 'dash out and hope the Valkyrie's combo misses'.
Also, mostly for Intrepid I guess, please don't fall into the trap of thinking that the additional mobility is increasing the skill ceiling for most players. What they will do is 'guess-dash', whenever they think the opponent will do something, and this is also a gameplay illusion, it feels good until they get to 'above average' and then it drops off entirely as a useful thing.
To the inexperienced this looks like engaging fast combat. To me I just watched the Berserker wait for a missed movement from the Valkyrie and whiff punish it for an instant kill.
Decisions made in that first fight: 2.
Decisions made in the second fight: 4.
And the second fight was just the Valkyrie making a mistake at the beginning and committing to a string that was never going to kill, then going for the kill anyway and getting whiff punished into death AGAIN.
unless Mag and Noaani just 'like' spinning in circles, in which case we'd just be intruding
At this point I'm like 90% sure they do. DPS thread is the biggest example of that. They've been talking about the exact same thing, and the exact same arguments, using the exact same words pretty much every single time that thread gets resurrected.
Detailed conversation about MMO mechanics is the reason I, at least, am here. Why else hang out on a quiet-ish forum for an open development Alpha 1.5 MMO?
Honestly I got nothing better to do I mean, I do, but I'm at such a point of laziness that writing pointless stuff on the forums is more palatable than playing amazing games that're just sitting in my steam/gamepass
I hate running in circles, if I see actual facts backed by gameplay i will accept it if it makes sense to me and the points i bring up that agree / counter it.
I'd rather be shown the exact point (with gameplay) than talk about what one person thinks as it just becomes bias. We have games out there we played, if it exist we can show and talk about it.
The problem here - as I have explained to you many times, is that gameplay footage of what I am talking about doesnt exist, and even if it did, you would have no idea what you are talking about.
There is literally no footage at all of most of the raid bosses from my time in EQ2 at all on the internet, and literally none (as in, literally) that is contemporary for when the boss in question came out.
That is how EQ2 managed to have a thriving, competitive raiding scene, we were all circle jerking each other off to see who could post a kill video first - world first and server first were denoted by who got the loot first.
The thing is, you KNOW this to be true, because I have TOLD you this many times. This is why you keep asking for clips from EQ2, as you know there aren't any of the content I am talking about. By saying that is all you will accept, you are forcing a circular argument.
Whenever i talk about content in BDO or gameplay it is in relation to PvP. As PvE content in BDO is brain dead and doesn't require much.
And I am talking about top end PvE, where EQ2 does require a shitload.
You said you essentially dabbled in EQ2, what you didnt do is get a few expansions in, and on to the top end in terms of gear and content where things are quite literally more than 4 times the pace of level raid 50 content - which itself is more than twice the pace of level 20 raid content.
Hell, I'd be surprised if you even looked at level 20 raid content.
Great basis for comparisons there dude.
Show some reference and explain. If it exist it shouldn't be that hard to share content. Doesn't need to be a top end raid as nothing should prevent you from using skills and showing it.
If you are going to talk about the game and believe it that is cool, but again show some gameplay and talk about it. Else you may as well just be exaggerating in how you compare it to BDO. And that is not even getting into the fact you are trying to say BDO does not require much in terms of other tab games which honestly is not true in the slightest.
Funny how Noaani addressed Mag's next comment before that comment even appeared. Just goes to show that we've been in a circle since the very start.
Lineage 2 had a ton of vids even before youtube became popular, but majority of those vids have disappeared and a ton of other vids got blocked to all fuck by YT's copyright dumbness, because they all used "super cool and not at all edgy" music. Pretty much any "proper" gameplay that I'd want to show doesn't exist, just as is the case with Noaani's points.
BDO just came out late enough to have all kinds of content and got pretty much completely documented since the very start. Like, hell, I can't even look up forum posts for super old L2 moments. I can only look up an archived version of the site (which is super limited) and even that is only the case thanks to some people who loved the game.
In other words, it's real disingenuous to ask for visual proof and only trust it, when it's known that there is none, and any content that exists simply doesn't represent the points well enough.
Comments
Well I'm happy to count on you to contribute whenever Mag returns, since it would probably be generally nicer for the forum if we eventually hashed this out (unless Mag and Noaani just 'like' spinning in circles, in which case we'd just be intruding).
Detailed conversation about MMO mechanics is the reason I, at least, am here. Why else hang out on a quiet-ish forum for an open development Alpha 1.5 MMO?
Honestly I got nothing better to do
If all you care about is the Fantasy MMO part, it's fine - especially solo.
But, if what you want is the RPG aspect of synergizing your ability with group mates, it's horrible - because you don't need to synergize anything with group mates in BDO. All you need to do is button-mash.
Whenever i talk about content in BDO or gameplay it is in relation to PvP. As PvE content in BDO is brain dead and doesn't require much.
If you are doing group content in BDO you are trolling yourself and wasting your time since you get no loot lol. It is truly a single player mmorpg. Though I'm sure they have changed some stuff since its been years since I played it,.
I hate running in circles, if I see actual facts backed by gameplay i will accept it if it makes sense to me and the points i bring up that agree / counter it.
I'd rather be shown the exact point (with gameplay) than talk about what one person thinks as it just becomes bias. We have games out there we played, if it exist we can show and talk about it.
Oh ok, so you wanted footage of Tab Target MMO PvP?
Or did you want to have someone who is familiar with a PvE Tab Target MMO extrapolate how PvP would work and why the speed would be similar?
Or are you just, as Noaani assumed, talking about things you are making big assumptions about? Because you talked about playing EQ2 a little, but you can't know how fast or complex EQ2 PvP is from playing it a little, I would assume you also thought that.
For example, the reason I don't talk about GW2 is that I have not played enough GW2 to make comparisons, so I would leave that to someone like Arya or Blindside.
Perhaps you can bring your own videos of you doing mid-high level EQ2 PvP and explain to us how it is insufficient?
It's almost a moot point talking about combat when most people aren't studied and read in the right topics.
It generally seems to me that most people who get into these things do in fact have knowledge of it, or at least come to the generally correct conclusions, I'd moreso say it's the minority (out of the already limited forum) who lack the understanding of it.
In short, don't pick on Mag7.
It is this simple show gameplay as reference, compare it to both and explain why one is more than the other.
Both games exist and so does the gameplay on youtube as well.
Explain why you feel speed is more with proof, explain why positioning matters with proof and reference as well. Then we can have a proper disccusion.
The fact everyone is scared to show gameplay is a red flag to me for how their points will even hold up even more so when they say its faster on a whole so there shouldn't be a clip to worry about in worrying it will read wrong.
The most easy one I'd happy to see why position matters more than BDO (as your dmg is based on positioning in this game) with reference clips to help get across the point.
I'm sure they understand the fundamentals, but we can get deep into the weeds such as data complexity, difficulty, and decision making and how that impacts what some of us would call good combat.
Over really obnoxiously bright highly colorized animations and such.
So I will remain jaded and in disbelief that most people can have that conversation.
And that is going to be subjective to playstyle preferences.
Ok, but no one was making THAT point, in fact you're right, it's 'easy' because it's the one thing that one game type has and the other doesn't.
Nothing in this thread has been about 'positioning' in BDO, because not all classes actually need to position in BDO, it's you that brought that up.
I can explain 'speed' though, so let's do that. I won't say much because I'm not yet convinced that you won't just redirect into 'positioning'.
This fight gets serious at the 2 minute mark. This player is reacting to what that boss (intended to emulate a player of the exact same class as whoever fights it) is doing faster than most people who don't play that class can even track. Note I said 'reacting'.
Compare this to PvP between two BDO classes that generally fight head on or use large dashes.
The Sage and Valkyrie are doing less, but it looks like they're doing more. The Valkyrie in particular doesn't even 'look' like that very much. It's class dependent.
In a Tab Target game like FFXI, if you have the OPTION to cast an ability, and 'decide not to cast that ability yet so that your character does their autoattack, because it is not necessary', it is equivalent to the same situation in BDO, where you have the option to use a skill, but decide not to use that skill and instead use your Primary Attack.
The difference between these two things is that in one game you had to press a button and in the other you did not. You don't make less decisions, you press less buttons.
And I'd say this is maybe ~80% skill lvl. Retargetting could be faster and the other dudes seem to get lost with it too. And this is from an older version of the game. The newer versions have even more detargetting methods and even more movement options, so this is not even the limit to apm.
edit: oh and btw, the fact that his hp doesn't go down much is related to positioning too. The enemy class has low accuracy on their abilities if they're used directly to the face or even to the front 180 degrees, so with proper positioning you can limit the incoming dmg by a lot.
BDO combat fails because it is based on the titan theory. It matters not if there are 20 players or 2 players, the skill sets do not change although the skill order might.
I would rather take EQ or FF11 where the situational disposition can change the whole fight dynamic. Sure, you might always take the same skills to each fight, but, the fight in situ will dictate how you use the toon.
BDO is like a one trick pony.
This one makes it even more obvious than the FFXI one, Mag, in case that one felt off to you.
I actually completely like and support games where you do have to make the choice to 'press the button yourself', but I'm not a person who believes 'yeah because I have to press a button myself instead of choosing to not press a different button and letting the game do it for me' that depth has been added.
I'll even add my own BDO fight for the same reasoning. Just to clarify a specific small thing, since as you pointed out, BDO PvE isn't that hard.
I consider this 'harder' than fighting a Valkyrie though, if I am trying to never get hit (which is the basic requirement of BDO PvP, right?). Nevertheless, BDO is 'making me press the button', but really I could just 'tap block occasionally' when it swings and then quick-cancel into my attacks, I am repositioning here for fun.
If I were fighting a Nova, Shai, or Valkyrie, it's the same to me, I'd reposition moreso for 'fun', they will turn faster than I could reasonably get behind them without a skill, unless of course they're not very good at all in which case they died another way. If anything, I reposition so that they think they have to and waste movement skills that I can whiff punish.
If it was a Guardian, I'd have to move, but not because 'positioning matters', only timing actually matters there, because the whole thing is the same as when Dim goes for the attack that flashes it red (for those unfamiliar). It's just a huge multihit AoE and my only requirement is 'don't be standing there while it goes off'. I die way more to those players because I can't tell that the AoE has actually ended than anything else, so at that point yeah, I want MORE flashiness so I don't have to learn the frame data on Guardian's AoE.
Other than that, fighting Guardian looks like fighting Dim except that they move more and give me more openings. I lose to the ones who know to just watch my movement and not move themselves because them trying to move just gets them killed.
This really reminds me of the mobility bros I've encountered across numerous titles who think it's hard when in reality running and gunning is one of the most simplistic forms of combat. I think its a disservice that there are classes that mobile, diminishes the decision making.
I like Valheim because it has the potential to combine many different types of data into complex tactical and strategical decision making.
In other words you gotta avoid pressing the button again. This also kinda applies when the dagger is getting kited by a mage. You gotta click to move, click to target and most of the time avoid clicking on the target itself because you wanna use your big abilities instead of doing auto-hits.
I haven't played enough BDO to know for sure, but that kind of decision tree and load seems more than BDO's "you use an ability that moves you in the direction you wanted and quite often that ability will be an aoe hit that will touch the enemy if direction was good enough".
Right. In that FFXI fight, it would in fact be possible for some people who don't read as fast or easily track everything going on while stressed, to die without realizing, because the game doesn't show you every buff that your opponent has on them.
Red Mages need to dispel certain ones or they will end up in bad situations, and Dispel isn't even your choice, so you have to adapt to 'I can't dispel because I let the mob put up 2 less important buffs already and now if I Dispel I only have a 1 in 3 chance of countering the correct one, so I have to bind or sleep them to buy time to get all the Dispels and put my defenses up.
If you lose track of this, you'll do something like 'waste a Dispel cast on removing something you could have overcome in some other way', lose your rhythm, and die.
I could detail the decisions in the BDO fight in six lines, and if the TTK was higher, those six lines would repeat (see Dim Tree fight).
It would take me at least 100 lines to explain the FFXI fight, and that's 'if I took the combat log and then just put commentary after every meaningful decision. I'd add 100 lines of commentary to the log itself just to explain it.
This doesn't compare at all to BDO's 'dodge around for 6 seconds and then die in 2 or maybe get away to repeat the 6 seconds of dodging if you're lucky'.
Well, I believe that Kunoichi is among the highest 'direct precision, lower AoE options' classes in BDO, so you can use the videos given as your data for that.
Compare the Sage's actionset (throwing giant lightning spears, surrounding self in AoE thunderbolts, etc) to mine (honestly still AoE but at least a few things have to be factored such as, as Mag says, getting behind the opponent, though 'behind' is like a 75 degree cone, and usually less massive).
That fight was quite automatic to me, because it's just conditioned reactions, I had to make an effort to do three specific things 'incorrectly' and to NOT just plink-block its hits and actually try to just 'dodge and usually be behind it to get the back attack damage',
And even then I still basically can 'zone out and do that'. PvP is not different, it comes out exactly the same as the Sage thing 'Did your CC actually hit me through my Evasion? Did it get through my resistance too? Ok I die, let's go again, 15 seconds!'
I cannot zone out against Maat, I'm honestly surprised that player won that, but even 'explaining why them winning was partially luck' would be like 8 paragraphs.
And apparently I missed this one, but at this point I don't care since we're due for another 'Combat Discussion' thread anyway I guess.
How many years are we talking 'since you played it', Mag7? I'm trying not to make assumptions here.
When the discussion is about the general publics opinion, reddit is literally one of the best sources in that case, with Wikipedia being the worst lmao. We're asking for the MMO communitys opinion on a game, so posting one of the most popular MMO forums threads asking this exact question is a great source for peoples opinion.
And I have no intention of changing anyone's opinion on either this games combat or BDOS or anything else. Just posting my opinion, and linking to hundreds of others that share the same opinion. 😄
Comment right here saying BDO positioning is not as important, you are free to debunk it with bdo if you want.
Continuing on (not about positioning stuff)
Honestly it doesn't look that fast to me if we are talking about be it tab or action which you need to do button wise. There is plenty of reaction you need to do, in bdo between using your movement it is not just simply dash and win. Managing your protections, as well as trying to get damage in or cc between the gaps of your enemies. Managing your buffs and stamina so you can do maximum dmg output.
It is a lot of cat and mouse with BDO and trying to keep track of them and land your hits on them as you need to have general aim and positioning to be effective with it.
If we were to also have a log the same way our game does with every detail BDO would be running down like a streaming chat with all the constant inputs. With my comment to the one above saying BDO has no substance and everything about tab target games are more in depth combat wise than bdo is not true lol.
And I am talking about top end PvE, where EQ2 does require a shitload.
You said you essentially dabbled in EQ2, what you didnt do is get a few expansions in, and on to the top end in terms of gear and content where things are quite literally more than 4 times the pace of level raid 50 content - which itself is more than twice the pace of level 20 raid content.
Hell, I'd be surprised if you even looked at level 20 raid content.
Great basis for comparisons there dude.
Except that you can parse the BDO fights the same way, and no, it isn't actually running down like a streaming chat faster than the FFXI one, and we know this because you can just check the skill usage.
If by 'buffs' you mean the 7-10 second ones that trigger when you use abilities, i.e. Augments, it's the same. I can agree that it's cat and mouse, what I don't agree is that it is hard. You explicitly have said that it should not be very hard before.
So, no, though I'm moreso talking to Intrepid than to you for some reason. The combat log is about the same speed in BDO, unless you are counting the 'turn to face your opponent' part, which is something that happens in any Tab Target game situation where the opponent moves, and those exist, that just wasn't the first video I gave you.
I want you to understand that I am not saying that FFXI is extremely fast. I'm saying that BDO tricks you into thinking it's faster and it is not, your character is just moving faster and you are wiggling your targeting slightly more (which you don't really need to do, it's just a little easier for specific things).
From the moment the Sage gets hit to the moment they die is 2 seconds in most of the fights they lose in that clip. Their options are 'attempt a specific burst with Super Armor' and 'dash out and hope the Valkyrie's combo misses'.
Also, mostly for Intrepid I guess, please don't fall into the trap of thinking that the additional mobility is increasing the skill ceiling for most players. What they will do is 'guess-dash', whenever they think the opponent will do something, and this is also a gameplay illusion, it feels good until they get to 'above average' and then it drops off entirely as a useful thing.
You'll just get this:
To the inexperienced this looks like engaging fast combat. To me I just watched the Berserker wait for a missed movement from the Valkyrie and whiff punish it for an instant kill.
Decisions made in that first fight: 2.
Decisions made in the second fight: 4.
And the second fight was just the Valkyrie making a mistake at the beginning and committing to a string that was never going to kill, then going for the kill anyway and getting whiff punished into death AGAIN.
The problem here - as I have explained to you many times, is that gameplay footage of what I am talking about doesnt exist, and even if it did, you would have no idea what you are talking about.
There is literally no footage at all of most of the raid bosses from my time in EQ2 at all on the internet, and literally none (as in, literally) that is contemporary for when the boss in question came out.
That is how EQ2 managed to have a thriving, competitive raiding scene, we were all circle jerking each other off to see who could post a kill video first - world first and server first were denoted by who got the loot first.
The thing is, you KNOW this to be true, because I have TOLD you this many times. This is why you keep asking for clips from EQ2, as you know there aren't any of the content I am talking about. By saying that is all you will accept, you are forcing a circular argument.
Show some reference and explain. If it exist it shouldn't be that hard to share content. Doesn't need to be a top end raid as nothing should prevent you from using skills and showing it.
If you are going to talk about the game and believe it that is cool, but again show some gameplay and talk about it. Else you may as well just be exaggerating in how you compare it to BDO. And that is not even getting into the fact you are trying to say BDO does not require much in terms of other tab games which honestly is not true in the slightest.
Again show content and explain in clips.
Lineage 2 had a ton of vids even before youtube became popular, but majority of those vids have disappeared and a ton of other vids got blocked to all fuck by YT's copyright dumbness, because they all used "super cool and not at all edgy" music. Pretty much any "proper" gameplay that I'd want to show doesn't exist, just as is the case with Noaani's points.
BDO just came out late enough to have all kinds of content and got pretty much completely documented since the very start. Like, hell, I can't even look up forum posts for super old L2 moments. I can only look up an archived version of the site (which is super limited) and even that is only the case thanks to some people who loved the game.
In other words, it's real disingenuous to ask for visual proof and only trust it, when it's known that there is none, and any content that exists simply doesn't represent the points well enough.