Arya_Yeshe wrote: » There is a concern when a game has fast combat and no addons, which is not knowing or being hard to find out how you died in 1 second. Sometimes in GW2 we die in 1-2 seconds and this death was avoidable, but scrolling through rampant lines of text from the combat log it is not easy debunking every death
NiKr wrote: » Azherae wrote: » I actually completely like and support games where you do have to make the choice to 'press the button yourself', but I'm not a person who believes 'yeah because I have to press a button myself instead of choosing to not press a different button and letting the game do it for me' that depth has been added. If the MC of the video was a mage, it would even be "try NOT to press the button and instead press another one", cause you gotta click on a detargeted enemy, but if you then click again too fast your character will try auto-attacking that enemy. And mages don't do shit with auto-attacks, but they completely ruin your positioning and can even delay your casts. So you can't just spam click to regain the targetting. In other words you gotta avoid pressing the button again. This also kinda applies when the dagger is getting kited by a mage. You gotta click to move, click to target and most of the time avoid clicking on the target itself because you wanna use your big abilities instead of doing auto-hits. I haven't played enough BDO to know for sure, but that kind of decision tree and load seems more than BDO's "you use an ability that moves you in the direction you wanted and quite often that ability will be an aoe hit that will touch the enemy if direction was good enough".
Azherae wrote: » I actually completely like and support games where you do have to make the choice to 'press the button yourself', but I'm not a person who believes 'yeah because I have to press a button myself instead of choosing to not press a different button and letting the game do it for me' that depth has been added.
Mag7spy wrote: » Dygz wrote: » Fantmx wrote: » I find BDO fun when I am in the mood for action combat. Another one I find fun is Neverwinter Online. BDO can be a fun MMO, but the combat is not good for an MMO RPG. If all you care about is the Fantasy MMO part, it's fine - especially solo. But, if what you want is the RPG aspect of synergizing your ability with group mates, it's horrible - because you don't need to synergize anything with group mates in BDO. All you need to do is button-mash. If you are doing group content in BDO you are trolling yourself and wasting your time since you get no loot lol. It is truly a single player mmorpg. Though I'm sure they have changed some stuff since its been years since I played it,.
Dygz wrote: » Fantmx wrote: » I find BDO fun when I am in the mood for action combat. Another one I find fun is Neverwinter Online. BDO can be a fun MMO, but the combat is not good for an MMO RPG. If all you care about is the Fantasy MMO part, it's fine - especially solo. But, if what you want is the RPG aspect of synergizing your ability with group mates, it's horrible - because you don't need to synergize anything with group mates in BDO. All you need to do is button-mash.
Fantmx wrote: » I find BDO fun when I am in the mood for action combat. Another one I find fun is Neverwinter Online.
Noaani wrote: » Aniion wrote: » The are sources from a popular mmo forum in the post you're quoting? Idk if you didn't catch that but it was there when you replied to me. I'm not sure what other sources you want but I have a feeling you're going to say one of the most populated MMO forums online isn't a good enough place to garner general audience feedback I mean, Reddit is less reliable than Wikipedia. At the very least, this thread is proof that there is a good amount of general disdain towards BDO's combat. I see no reason at all to need any more proof than that to point out to you that BDO does not have widely (nor even generally, imo) well regarded combat, let alone almost unanimously. Now, you are free to argue the same with my point as to the game having almost unanimously panned combat - but I was obviously being facetious.
Aniion wrote: » The are sources from a popular mmo forum in the post you're quoting? Idk if you didn't catch that but it was there when you replied to me. I'm not sure what other sources you want but I have a feeling you're going to say one of the most populated MMO forums online isn't a good enough place to garner general audience feedback
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Aniion wrote: » Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao. If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources. Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources. Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks. This is false. Right, so, you haven't played the game I am talking about. I have played both BDO (even if for a short amount of time), and the game I am talking about. As such, since I was making a direct comparison between two games (even if one of them was not named), you are in quite literally no position to have an opinion on this matter. Your comment does not express experience wise anything of the nature of BDO. But you are free to share gameplay clips on multiple tab target mmorpgs and say their combat is faster and requires better positioning with proof. Saying bad takes is really pointless, games are out there show gameplay. The problem with gameplay clips is that they don't actually show how many decisions are being made, and often also don't show how many buttons are being pressed. Also, as I have said to you many, many times, the game I am talking about - in the time period I am talking about - does not have clips posted to YouTube. For a start, we are talking about a time before YouTube even existed, and LONG before it was even remotely popular. Further, people that play games for reasons other than "oh look at all the pretty lights" don't tend to be as vain as those that do play for such reasons, and so don't tend to record themselves playing games. Why would we? Fact is, if you don't/haven't play such games, you have no idea at all as to what is involved. You are absolutely free to espouse the better aspects of BDO all you want, have at it as far as I am concerned. However, you are in no position to compare it to a game you have never played. You can show gameplay clips on games it that in truth they are much slower, it is simply easier for you not to show them. You don't need all decision making to be clear in a clip it s about showing some element of the gameplay you can use to point out as reference. ie * if you are talking about amount of skills used you do not need decision making explained you need to show and say a few things on what is going on and how it is faster. The same thing can be said for positioning. You talk about people have not played these order games, those older games are dated and the combat is just as dated and slower with the only one you bring up being EQ2 since I've played EQ1. And jumping in EQ2 for a bit I can tell its no where near BDO.Fact is I've played a ton of tab target mmorpgs since everquest and that is exactly why I know the seen of those games do not equal BDO EVEN if the mmorpg is dated and old you can show clips for any of those games they all exist. If it is faster you don't need a perfect clip either any type of content should do so it is "better" on a general scale with what you are saying. Which is false because all those older games are slower. You know what, I'll take this bet. I got time. I expect that the only think you will say is 'slower' is the fact that in old Tab Target games the character doesn't have to move, but this is true in BDO too, depending on what class you're playing. I don't move on Nova to fight Kutum, I don't need to move to fight Dim Tree on Kuno, the movements happen because the animation moves you (and sometimes puts you right back where you started) so that it feels dynamic. I move against Dim Tree because it's more fun, not because it's necessary. So looking past the fact that you have the option to move, they're the same and I DO have videos. But I wanna confirm one thing first. You do understand that we're talking about PvE, right? Can I at least get you to promise you won't try to 'counter' this by going 'well in PvP it would be more movement!' because no one is talking about that when comparing BDO to 'old Tab Target MMOs'. Whenever i talk about content in BDO or gameplay it is in relation to PvP. As PvE content in BDO is brain dead and doesn't require much. Oh ok, so you wanted footage of Tab Target MMO PvP? Or did you want to have someone who is familiar with a PvE Tab Target MMO extrapolate how PvP would work and why the speed would be similar? Or are you just, as Noaani assumed, talking about things you are making big assumptions about? Because you talked about playing EQ2 a little, but you can't know how fast or complex EQ2 PvP is from playing it a little, I would assume you also thought that. For example, the reason I don't talk about GW2 is that I have not played enough GW2 to make comparisons, so I would leave that to someone like Arya or Blindside. Perhaps you can bring your own videos of you doing mid-high level EQ2 PvP and explain to us how it is insufficient? It is this simple show gameplay as reference, compare it to both and explain why one is more than the other. Both games exist and so does the gameplay on youtube as well. Explain why you feel speed is more with proof, explain why positioning matters with proof and reference as well. Then we can have a proper disccusion. The fact everyone is scared to show gameplay is a red flag to me for how their points will even hold up even more so when they say its faster on a whole so there shouldn't be a clip to worry about in worrying it will read wrong. The most easy one I'd happy to see why position matters more than BDO (as your dmg is based on positioning in this game) with reference clips to help get across the point. Ok, but no one was making THAT point, in fact you're right, it's 'easy' because it's the one thing that one game type has and the other doesn't. Nothing in this thread has been about 'positioning' in BDO, because not all classes actually need to position in BDO, it's you that brought that up. I can explain 'speed' though, so let's do that. I won't say much because I'm not yet convinced that you won't just redirect into 'positioning'. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqK5rnN6dXw This fight gets serious at the 2 minute mark. This player is reacting to what that boss (intended to emulate a player of the exact same class as whoever fights it) is doing faster than most people who don't play that class can even track. Note I said 'reacting'. Compare this to PvP between two BDO classes that generally fight head on or use large dashes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfA3UcA8vhM The Sage and Valkyrie are doing less, but it looks like they're doing more. The Valkyrie in particular doesn't even 'look' like that very much. It's class dependent.
Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Aniion wrote: » Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao. If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources. Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources. Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks. This is false. Right, so, you haven't played the game I am talking about. I have played both BDO (even if for a short amount of time), and the game I am talking about. As such, since I was making a direct comparison between two games (even if one of them was not named), you are in quite literally no position to have an opinion on this matter. Your comment does not express experience wise anything of the nature of BDO. But you are free to share gameplay clips on multiple tab target mmorpgs and say their combat is faster and requires better positioning with proof. Saying bad takes is really pointless, games are out there show gameplay. The problem with gameplay clips is that they don't actually show how many decisions are being made, and often also don't show how many buttons are being pressed. Also, as I have said to you many, many times, the game I am talking about - in the time period I am talking about - does not have clips posted to YouTube. For a start, we are talking about a time before YouTube even existed, and LONG before it was even remotely popular. Further, people that play games for reasons other than "oh look at all the pretty lights" don't tend to be as vain as those that do play for such reasons, and so don't tend to record themselves playing games. Why would we? Fact is, if you don't/haven't play such games, you have no idea at all as to what is involved. You are absolutely free to espouse the better aspects of BDO all you want, have at it as far as I am concerned. However, you are in no position to compare it to a game you have never played. You can show gameplay clips on games it that in truth they are much slower, it is simply easier for you not to show them. You don't need all decision making to be clear in a clip it s about showing some element of the gameplay you can use to point out as reference. ie * if you are talking about amount of skills used you do not need decision making explained you need to show and say a few things on what is going on and how it is faster. The same thing can be said for positioning. You talk about people have not played these order games, those older games are dated and the combat is just as dated and slower with the only one you bring up being EQ2 since I've played EQ1. And jumping in EQ2 for a bit I can tell its no where near BDO.Fact is I've played a ton of tab target mmorpgs since everquest and that is exactly why I know the seen of those games do not equal BDO EVEN if the mmorpg is dated and old you can show clips for any of those games they all exist. If it is faster you don't need a perfect clip either any type of content should do so it is "better" on a general scale with what you are saying. Which is false because all those older games are slower. You know what, I'll take this bet. I got time. I expect that the only think you will say is 'slower' is the fact that in old Tab Target games the character doesn't have to move, but this is true in BDO too, depending on what class you're playing. I don't move on Nova to fight Kutum, I don't need to move to fight Dim Tree on Kuno, the movements happen because the animation moves you (and sometimes puts you right back where you started) so that it feels dynamic. I move against Dim Tree because it's more fun, not because it's necessary. So looking past the fact that you have the option to move, they're the same and I DO have videos. But I wanna confirm one thing first. You do understand that we're talking about PvE, right? Can I at least get you to promise you won't try to 'counter' this by going 'well in PvP it would be more movement!' because no one is talking about that when comparing BDO to 'old Tab Target MMOs'. Whenever i talk about content in BDO or gameplay it is in relation to PvP. As PvE content in BDO is brain dead and doesn't require much. Oh ok, so you wanted footage of Tab Target MMO PvP? Or did you want to have someone who is familiar with a PvE Tab Target MMO extrapolate how PvP would work and why the speed would be similar? Or are you just, as Noaani assumed, talking about things you are making big assumptions about? Because you talked about playing EQ2 a little, but you can't know how fast or complex EQ2 PvP is from playing it a little, I would assume you also thought that. For example, the reason I don't talk about GW2 is that I have not played enough GW2 to make comparisons, so I would leave that to someone like Arya or Blindside. Perhaps you can bring your own videos of you doing mid-high level EQ2 PvP and explain to us how it is insufficient? It is this simple show gameplay as reference, compare it to both and explain why one is more than the other. Both games exist and so does the gameplay on youtube as well. Explain why you feel speed is more with proof, explain why positioning matters with proof and reference as well. Then we can have a proper disccusion. The fact everyone is scared to show gameplay is a red flag to me for how their points will even hold up even more so when they say its faster on a whole so there shouldn't be a clip to worry about in worrying it will read wrong. The most easy one I'd happy to see why position matters more than BDO (as your dmg is based on positioning in this game) with reference clips to help get across the point.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Aniion wrote: » Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao. If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources. Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources. Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks. This is false. Right, so, you haven't played the game I am talking about. I have played both BDO (even if for a short amount of time), and the game I am talking about. As such, since I was making a direct comparison between two games (even if one of them was not named), you are in quite literally no position to have an opinion on this matter. Your comment does not express experience wise anything of the nature of BDO. But you are free to share gameplay clips on multiple tab target mmorpgs and say their combat is faster and requires better positioning with proof. Saying bad takes is really pointless, games are out there show gameplay. The problem with gameplay clips is that they don't actually show how many decisions are being made, and often also don't show how many buttons are being pressed. Also, as I have said to you many, many times, the game I am talking about - in the time period I am talking about - does not have clips posted to YouTube. For a start, we are talking about a time before YouTube even existed, and LONG before it was even remotely popular. Further, people that play games for reasons other than "oh look at all the pretty lights" don't tend to be as vain as those that do play for such reasons, and so don't tend to record themselves playing games. Why would we? Fact is, if you don't/haven't play such games, you have no idea at all as to what is involved. You are absolutely free to espouse the better aspects of BDO all you want, have at it as far as I am concerned. However, you are in no position to compare it to a game you have never played. You can show gameplay clips on games it that in truth they are much slower, it is simply easier for you not to show them. You don't need all decision making to be clear in a clip it s about showing some element of the gameplay you can use to point out as reference. ie * if you are talking about amount of skills used you do not need decision making explained you need to show and say a few things on what is going on and how it is faster. The same thing can be said for positioning. You talk about people have not played these order games, those older games are dated and the combat is just as dated and slower with the only one you bring up being EQ2 since I've played EQ1. And jumping in EQ2 for a bit I can tell its no where near BDO.Fact is I've played a ton of tab target mmorpgs since everquest and that is exactly why I know the seen of those games do not equal BDO EVEN if the mmorpg is dated and old you can show clips for any of those games they all exist. If it is faster you don't need a perfect clip either any type of content should do so it is "better" on a general scale with what you are saying. Which is false because all those older games are slower. You know what, I'll take this bet. I got time. I expect that the only think you will say is 'slower' is the fact that in old Tab Target games the character doesn't have to move, but this is true in BDO too, depending on what class you're playing. I don't move on Nova to fight Kutum, I don't need to move to fight Dim Tree on Kuno, the movements happen because the animation moves you (and sometimes puts you right back where you started) so that it feels dynamic. I move against Dim Tree because it's more fun, not because it's necessary. So looking past the fact that you have the option to move, they're the same and I DO have videos. But I wanna confirm one thing first. You do understand that we're talking about PvE, right? Can I at least get you to promise you won't try to 'counter' this by going 'well in PvP it would be more movement!' because no one is talking about that when comparing BDO to 'old Tab Target MMOs'. Whenever i talk about content in BDO or gameplay it is in relation to PvP. As PvE content in BDO is brain dead and doesn't require much. Oh ok, so you wanted footage of Tab Target MMO PvP? Or did you want to have someone who is familiar with a PvE Tab Target MMO extrapolate how PvP would work and why the speed would be similar? Or are you just, as Noaani assumed, talking about things you are making big assumptions about? Because you talked about playing EQ2 a little, but you can't know how fast or complex EQ2 PvP is from playing it a little, I would assume you also thought that. For example, the reason I don't talk about GW2 is that I have not played enough GW2 to make comparisons, so I would leave that to someone like Arya or Blindside. Perhaps you can bring your own videos of you doing mid-high level EQ2 PvP and explain to us how it is insufficient?
Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Aniion wrote: » Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao. If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources. Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources. Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks. This is false. Right, so, you haven't played the game I am talking about. I have played both BDO (even if for a short amount of time), and the game I am talking about. As such, since I was making a direct comparison between two games (even if one of them was not named), you are in quite literally no position to have an opinion on this matter. Your comment does not express experience wise anything of the nature of BDO. But you are free to share gameplay clips on multiple tab target mmorpgs and say their combat is faster and requires better positioning with proof. Saying bad takes is really pointless, games are out there show gameplay. The problem with gameplay clips is that they don't actually show how many decisions are being made, and often also don't show how many buttons are being pressed. Also, as I have said to you many, many times, the game I am talking about - in the time period I am talking about - does not have clips posted to YouTube. For a start, we are talking about a time before YouTube even existed, and LONG before it was even remotely popular. Further, people that play games for reasons other than "oh look at all the pretty lights" don't tend to be as vain as those that do play for such reasons, and so don't tend to record themselves playing games. Why would we? Fact is, if you don't/haven't play such games, you have no idea at all as to what is involved. You are absolutely free to espouse the better aspects of BDO all you want, have at it as far as I am concerned. However, you are in no position to compare it to a game you have never played. You can show gameplay clips on games it that in truth they are much slower, it is simply easier for you not to show them. You don't need all decision making to be clear in a clip it s about showing some element of the gameplay you can use to point out as reference. ie * if you are talking about amount of skills used you do not need decision making explained you need to show and say a few things on what is going on and how it is faster. The same thing can be said for positioning. You talk about people have not played these order games, those older games are dated and the combat is just as dated and slower with the only one you bring up being EQ2 since I've played EQ1. And jumping in EQ2 for a bit I can tell its no where near BDO.Fact is I've played a ton of tab target mmorpgs since everquest and that is exactly why I know the seen of those games do not equal BDO EVEN if the mmorpg is dated and old you can show clips for any of those games they all exist. If it is faster you don't need a perfect clip either any type of content should do so it is "better" on a general scale with what you are saying. Which is false because all those older games are slower. You know what, I'll take this bet. I got time. I expect that the only think you will say is 'slower' is the fact that in old Tab Target games the character doesn't have to move, but this is true in BDO too, depending on what class you're playing. I don't move on Nova to fight Kutum, I don't need to move to fight Dim Tree on Kuno, the movements happen because the animation moves you (and sometimes puts you right back where you started) so that it feels dynamic. I move against Dim Tree because it's more fun, not because it's necessary. So looking past the fact that you have the option to move, they're the same and I DO have videos. But I wanna confirm one thing first. You do understand that we're talking about PvE, right? Can I at least get you to promise you won't try to 'counter' this by going 'well in PvP it would be more movement!' because no one is talking about that when comparing BDO to 'old Tab Target MMOs'. Whenever i talk about content in BDO or gameplay it is in relation to PvP. As PvE content in BDO is brain dead and doesn't require much.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Aniion wrote: » Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao. If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources. Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources. Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks. This is false. Right, so, you haven't played the game I am talking about. I have played both BDO (even if for a short amount of time), and the game I am talking about. As such, since I was making a direct comparison between two games (even if one of them was not named), you are in quite literally no position to have an opinion on this matter. Your comment does not express experience wise anything of the nature of BDO. But you are free to share gameplay clips on multiple tab target mmorpgs and say their combat is faster and requires better positioning with proof. Saying bad takes is really pointless, games are out there show gameplay. The problem with gameplay clips is that they don't actually show how many decisions are being made, and often also don't show how many buttons are being pressed. Also, as I have said to you many, many times, the game I am talking about - in the time period I am talking about - does not have clips posted to YouTube. For a start, we are talking about a time before YouTube even existed, and LONG before it was even remotely popular. Further, people that play games for reasons other than "oh look at all the pretty lights" don't tend to be as vain as those that do play for such reasons, and so don't tend to record themselves playing games. Why would we? Fact is, if you don't/haven't play such games, you have no idea at all as to what is involved. You are absolutely free to espouse the better aspects of BDO all you want, have at it as far as I am concerned. However, you are in no position to compare it to a game you have never played. You can show gameplay clips on games it that in truth they are much slower, it is simply easier for you not to show them. You don't need all decision making to be clear in a clip it s about showing some element of the gameplay you can use to point out as reference. ie * if you are talking about amount of skills used you do not need decision making explained you need to show and say a few things on what is going on and how it is faster. The same thing can be said for positioning. You talk about people have not played these order games, those older games are dated and the combat is just as dated and slower with the only one you bring up being EQ2 since I've played EQ1. And jumping in EQ2 for a bit I can tell its no where near BDO.Fact is I've played a ton of tab target mmorpgs since everquest and that is exactly why I know the seen of those games do not equal BDO EVEN if the mmorpg is dated and old you can show clips for any of those games they all exist. If it is faster you don't need a perfect clip either any type of content should do so it is "better" on a general scale with what you are saying. Which is false because all those older games are slower. You know what, I'll take this bet. I got time. I expect that the only think you will say is 'slower' is the fact that in old Tab Target games the character doesn't have to move, but this is true in BDO too, depending on what class you're playing. I don't move on Nova to fight Kutum, I don't need to move to fight Dim Tree on Kuno, the movements happen because the animation moves you (and sometimes puts you right back where you started) so that it feels dynamic. I move against Dim Tree because it's more fun, not because it's necessary. So looking past the fact that you have the option to move, they're the same and I DO have videos. But I wanna confirm one thing first. You do understand that we're talking about PvE, right? Can I at least get you to promise you won't try to 'counter' this by going 'well in PvP it would be more movement!' because no one is talking about that when comparing BDO to 'old Tab Target MMOs'.
Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Aniion wrote: » Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao. If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources. Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources. Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks. This is false. Right, so, you haven't played the game I am talking about. I have played both BDO (even if for a short amount of time), and the game I am talking about. As such, since I was making a direct comparison between two games (even if one of them was not named), you are in quite literally no position to have an opinion on this matter. Your comment does not express experience wise anything of the nature of BDO. But you are free to share gameplay clips on multiple tab target mmorpgs and say their combat is faster and requires better positioning with proof. Saying bad takes is really pointless, games are out there show gameplay. The problem with gameplay clips is that they don't actually show how many decisions are being made, and often also don't show how many buttons are being pressed. Also, as I have said to you many, many times, the game I am talking about - in the time period I am talking about - does not have clips posted to YouTube. For a start, we are talking about a time before YouTube even existed, and LONG before it was even remotely popular. Further, people that play games for reasons other than "oh look at all the pretty lights" don't tend to be as vain as those that do play for such reasons, and so don't tend to record themselves playing games. Why would we? Fact is, if you don't/haven't play such games, you have no idea at all as to what is involved. You are absolutely free to espouse the better aspects of BDO all you want, have at it as far as I am concerned. However, you are in no position to compare it to a game you have never played. You can show gameplay clips on games it that in truth they are much slower, it is simply easier for you not to show them. You don't need all decision making to be clear in a clip it s about showing some element of the gameplay you can use to point out as reference. ie * if you are talking about amount of skills used you do not need decision making explained you need to show and say a few things on what is going on and how it is faster. The same thing can be said for positioning. You talk about people have not played these order games, those older games are dated and the combat is just as dated and slower with the only one you bring up being EQ2 since I've played EQ1. And jumping in EQ2 for a bit I can tell its no where near BDO.Fact is I've played a ton of tab target mmorpgs since everquest and that is exactly why I know the seen of those games do not equal BDO EVEN if the mmorpg is dated and old you can show clips for any of those games they all exist. If it is faster you don't need a perfect clip either any type of content should do so it is "better" on a general scale with what you are saying. Which is false because all those older games are slower.
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Aniion wrote: » Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao. If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources. Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources. Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks. This is false. Right, so, you haven't played the game I am talking about. I have played both BDO (even if for a short amount of time), and the game I am talking about. As such, since I was making a direct comparison between two games (even if one of them was not named), you are in quite literally no position to have an opinion on this matter. Your comment does not express experience wise anything of the nature of BDO. But you are free to share gameplay clips on multiple tab target mmorpgs and say their combat is faster and requires better positioning with proof. Saying bad takes is really pointless, games are out there show gameplay. The problem with gameplay clips is that they don't actually show how many decisions are being made, and often also don't show how many buttons are being pressed. Also, as I have said to you many, many times, the game I am talking about - in the time period I am talking about - does not have clips posted to YouTube. For a start, we are talking about a time before YouTube even existed, and LONG before it was even remotely popular. Further, people that play games for reasons other than "oh look at all the pretty lights" don't tend to be as vain as those that do play for such reasons, and so don't tend to record themselves playing games. Why would we? Fact is, if you don't/haven't play such games, you have no idea at all as to what is involved. You are absolutely free to espouse the better aspects of BDO all you want, have at it as far as I am concerned. However, you are in no position to compare it to a game you have never played.
Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Aniion wrote: » Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao. If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources. Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources. Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks. This is false. Right, so, you haven't played the game I am talking about. I have played both BDO (even if for a short amount of time), and the game I am talking about. As such, since I was making a direct comparison between two games (even if one of them was not named), you are in quite literally no position to have an opinion on this matter. Your comment does not express experience wise anything of the nature of BDO. But you are free to share gameplay clips on multiple tab target mmorpgs and say their combat is faster and requires better positioning with proof. Saying bad takes is really pointless, games are out there show gameplay.
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Aniion wrote: » Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao. If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources. Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources. Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks. This is false. Right, so, you haven't played the game I am talking about. I have played both BDO (even if for a short amount of time), and the game I am talking about. As such, since I was making a direct comparison between two games (even if one of them was not named), you are in quite literally no position to have an opinion on this matter.
Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Aniion wrote: » Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao. If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources. Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources. Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks. This is false.
Noaani wrote: » Aniion wrote: » Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao. If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources. Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources. Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks.
Aniion wrote: » Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao.
Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks.
Mag7spy wrote: » Whenever i talk about content in BDO or gameplay it is in relation to PvP. As PvE content in BDO is brain dead and doesn't require much.
Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Aniion wrote: » Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao. If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources. Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources. Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks. This is false. Right, so, you haven't played the game I am talking about. I have played both BDO (even if for a short amount of time), and the game I am talking about. As such, since I was making a direct comparison between two games (even if one of them was not named), you are in quite literally no position to have an opinion on this matter. Your comment does not express experience wise anything of the nature of BDO. But you are free to share gameplay clips on multiple tab target mmorpgs and say their combat is faster and requires better positioning with proof. Saying bad takes is really pointless, games are out there show gameplay. The problem with gameplay clips is that they don't actually show how many decisions are being made, and often also don't show how many buttons are being pressed. Also, as I have said to you many, many times, the game I am talking about - in the time period I am talking about - does not have clips posted to YouTube. For a start, we are talking about a time before YouTube even existed, and LONG before it was even remotely popular. Further, people that play games for reasons other than "oh look at all the pretty lights" don't tend to be as vain as those that do play for such reasons, and so don't tend to record themselves playing games. Why would we? Fact is, if you don't/haven't play such games, you have no idea at all as to what is involved. You are absolutely free to espouse the better aspects of BDO all you want, have at it as far as I am concerned. However, you are in no position to compare it to a game you have never played. You can show gameplay clips on games it that in truth they are much slower, it is simply easier for you not to show them. You don't need all decision making to be clear in a clip it s about showing some element of the gameplay you can use to point out as reference. ie * if you are talking about amount of skills used you do not need decision making explained you need to show and say a few things on what is going on and how it is faster. The same thing can be said for positioning. You talk about people have not played these order games, those older games are dated and the combat is just as dated and slower with the only one you bring up being EQ2 since I've played EQ1. And jumping in EQ2 for a bit I can tell its no where near BDO.Fact is I've played a ton of tab target mmorpgs since everquest and that is exactly why I know the seen of those games do not equal BDO EVEN if the mmorpg is dated and old you can show clips for any of those games they all exist. If it is faster you don't need a perfect clip either any type of content should do so it is "better" on a general scale with what you are saying. Which is false because all those older games are slower. You know what, I'll take this bet. I got time. I expect that the only think you will say is 'slower' is the fact that in old Tab Target games the character doesn't have to move, but this is true in BDO too, depending on what class you're playing. I don't move on Nova to fight Kutum, I don't need to move to fight Dim Tree on Kuno, the movements happen because the animation moves you (and sometimes puts you right back where you started) so that it feels dynamic. I move against Dim Tree because it's more fun, not because it's necessary. So looking past the fact that you have the option to move, they're the same and I DO have videos. But I wanna confirm one thing first. You do understand that we're talking about PvE, right? Can I at least get you to promise you won't try to 'counter' this by going 'well in PvP it would be more movement!' because no one is talking about that when comparing BDO to 'old Tab Target MMOs'. Whenever i talk about content in BDO or gameplay it is in relation to PvP. As PvE content in BDO is brain dead and doesn't require much. Oh ok, so you wanted footage of Tab Target MMO PvP? Or did you want to have someone who is familiar with a PvE Tab Target MMO extrapolate how PvP would work and why the speed would be similar? Or are you just, as Noaani assumed, talking about things you are making big assumptions about? Because you talked about playing EQ2 a little, but you can't know how fast or complex EQ2 PvP is from playing it a little, I would assume you also thought that. For example, the reason I don't talk about GW2 is that I have not played enough GW2 to make comparisons, so I would leave that to someone like Arya or Blindside. Perhaps you can bring your own videos of you doing mid-high level EQ2 PvP and explain to us how it is insufficient? It is this simple show gameplay as reference, compare it to both and explain why one is more than the other. Both games exist and so does the gameplay on youtube as well. Explain why you feel speed is more with proof, explain why positioning matters with proof and reference as well. Then we can have a proper disccusion. The fact everyone is scared to show gameplay is a red flag to me for how their points will even hold up even more so when they say its faster on a whole so there shouldn't be a clip to worry about in worrying it will read wrong. The most easy one I'd happy to see why position matters more than BDO (as your dmg is based on positioning in this game) with reference clips to help get across the point. Ok, but no one was making THAT point, in fact you're right, it's 'easy' because it's the one thing that one game type has and the other doesn't. Nothing in this thread has been about 'positioning' in BDO, because not all classes actually need to position in BDO, it's you that brought that up. I can explain 'speed' though, so let's do that. I won't say much because I'm not yet convinced that you won't just redirect into 'positioning'. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqK5rnN6dXw This fight gets serious at the 2 minute mark. This player is reacting to what that boss (intended to emulate a player of the exact same class as whoever fights it) is doing faster than most people who don't play that class can even track. Note I said 'reacting'. Compare this to PvP between two BDO classes that generally fight head on or use large dashes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfA3UcA8vhM The Sage and Valkyrie are doing less, but it looks like they're doing more. The Valkyrie in particular doesn't even 'look' like that very much. It's class dependent. Comment right here saying BDO positioning is not as important, you are free to debunk it with bdo if you want. Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks. Continuing on (not about positioning stuff) Honestly it doesn't look that fast to me if we are talking about be it tab or action which you need to do button wise. There is plenty of reaction you need to do, in bdo between using your movement it is not just simply dash and win. Managing your protections, as well as trying to get damage in or cc between the gaps of your enemies. Managing your buffs and stamina so you can do maximum dmg output. It is a lot of cat and mouse with BDO and trying to keep track of them and land your hits on them as you need to have general aim and positioning to be effective with it. If we were to also have a log the same way our game does with every detail BDO would be running down like a streaming chat with all the constant inputs. With my comment to the one above saying BDO has no substance and everything about tab target games are more in depth combat wise than bdo is not true lol.
Mag7spy wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Azherae wrote: » unless Mag and Noaani just 'like' spinning in circles, in which case we'd just be intruding At this point I'm like 90% sure they do. DPS thread is the biggest example of that. They've been talking about the exact same thing, and the exact same arguments, using the exact same words pretty much every single time that thread gets resurrected. Azherae wrote: » Detailed conversation about MMO mechanics is the reason I, at least, am here. Why else hang out on a quiet-ish forum for an open development Alpha 1.5 MMO? Honestly I got nothing better to do I mean, I do, but I'm at such a point of laziness that writing pointless stuff on the forums is more palatable than playing amazing games that're just sitting in my steam/gamepass I hate running in circles, if I see actual facts backed by gameplay i will accept it if it makes sense to me and the points i bring up that agree / counter it. I'd rather be shown the exact point (with gameplay) than talk about what one person thinks as it just becomes bias. We have games out there we played, if it exist we can show and talk about it.
NiKr wrote: » Azherae wrote: » unless Mag and Noaani just 'like' spinning in circles, in which case we'd just be intruding At this point I'm like 90% sure they do. DPS thread is the biggest example of that. They've been talking about the exact same thing, and the exact same arguments, using the exact same words pretty much every single time that thread gets resurrected. Azherae wrote: » Detailed conversation about MMO mechanics is the reason I, at least, am here. Why else hang out on a quiet-ish forum for an open development Alpha 1.5 MMO? Honestly I got nothing better to do I mean, I do, but I'm at such a point of laziness that writing pointless stuff on the forums is more palatable than playing amazing games that're just sitting in my steam/gamepass
Azherae wrote: » unless Mag and Noaani just 'like' spinning in circles, in which case we'd just be intruding
Azherae wrote: » Detailed conversation about MMO mechanics is the reason I, at least, am here. Why else hang out on a quiet-ish forum for an open development Alpha 1.5 MMO?
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Whenever i talk about content in BDO or gameplay it is in relation to PvP. As PvE content in BDO is brain dead and doesn't require much. And I am talking about top end PvE, where EQ2 does require a shitload. You said you essentially dabbled in EQ2, what you didnt do is get a few expansions in, and on to the top end in terms of gear and content where things are quite literally more than 4 times the pace of level raid 50 content - which itself is more than twice the pace of level 20 raid content. Hell, I'd be surprised if you even looked at level 20 raid content. Great basis for comparisons there dude.
Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Whenever i talk about content in BDO or gameplay it is in relation to PvP. As PvE content in BDO is brain dead and doesn't require much. And I am talking about top end PvE, where EQ2 does require a shitload. You said you essentially dabbled in EQ2, what you didnt do is get a few expansions in, and on to the top end in terms of gear and content where things are quite literally more than 4 times the pace of level raid 50 content - which itself is more than twice the pace of level 20 raid content. Hell, I'd be surprised if you even looked at level 20 raid content. Great basis for comparisons there dude. Show some reference and explain. If it exist it shouldn't be that hard to share content. Doesn't need to be a top end raid as nothing should prevent you from using skills and showing it. If you are going to talk about the game and believe it that is cool, but again show some gameplay and talk about it. Else you may as well just be exaggerating in how you compare it to BDO. And that is not even getting into the fact you are trying to say BDO does not require much in terms of other tab games which honestly is not true in the slightest. Again show content and explain in clips.
Marzzo wrote: » 1. Every weapon in the game is hitting way too fast. One-handed weapons and Two-handed weapons alike are just too twitchy. Basic attack hits should leave small nuancaed windows between them to weave in abilities in a natural flowing manner. Currently, it's simply way too fast. Hits should be impactful, they should have weight. Right now, it looks like the characters are swinging weightless lightsabers.
Marzzo wrote: » 2. There are too many spell effects. Especially on basic attacks. Basic attacks should be just that, basic. Relax with the spell effects. Other than that, amazing job keep it up.
Azherae wrote: » Unless your entire point is of course to just stubbornly troll by insisting that Noaani bring an entirely separate Tab Target MMO which would probably be even less accessible to understand by watching.
NiKr wrote: » Funny how Noaani addressed Mag's next comment before that comment even appeared. Just goes to show that we've been in a circle since the very start. Lineage 2 had a ton of vids even before youtube became popular, but majority of those vids have disappeared and a ton of other vids got blocked to all fuck by YT's copyright dumbness, because they all used "super cool and not at all edgy" music. Pretty much any "proper" gameplay that I'd want to show doesn't exist, just as is the case with Noaani's points. BDO just came out late enough to have all kinds of content and got pretty much completely documented since the very start. Like, hell, I can't even look up forum posts for super old L2 moments. I can only look up an archived version of the site (which is super limited) and even that is only the case thanks to some people who loved the game. In other words, it's real disingenuous to ask for visual proof and only trust it, when it's known that there is none, and any content that exists simply doesn't represent the points well enough.
NiKr wrote: » In other words, it's real disingenuous to ask for visual proof and only trust it, when it's known that there is none, and any content that exists simply doesn't represent the points well enough.
Azherae wrote: » Arya_Yeshe wrote: » Are you surprised? Surprised? No, but I want to be. That said, Intrepid has very indirectly 'asked' for more discussion of Combat a while back, and seemed to want detail. The issue is normally that if we start to have any serious discussions of Combat it turns into this and I couldn't be bothered since I assumed it was a waste of time relative to anything they were already building. Since I've seen no evidence thus far that Combat in Ashes will be as fulfilling or engaging as EITHER BDO or FFXI, might as well talk. I would just prefer to do it without using Mag7 as my 'incompetent foil', but I've reached the point where that now falls under Mag's control and I cannot do much more, I at least have to get Mag and Noaani past their 'no u!' impasse.
Arya_Yeshe wrote: » Are you surprised?
