Hard-Core Solo players risk vs reward.

There are hard-core players who just play solo, they team up to fight World Bosses from time to time. What are the risks vs rewards for hardcore players? Flight mount I recall that only Guild can earn flying mount. IT will be nice for those hard-working hardcore solo players to get flying mounts by completing activities and breathing animals. IF solo players can get flight mount they should work hard to earn it. I'm a Hardcore solo PVPer, so they need to find a way to reward us and make us earn and work hard to get rare items, gears, and more. Guild way they will make it easy and Solo hardcore players have to work extra hard to earn things.

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SirChancelot

NiKr wrote: »

SirChancelot wrote: »

While I can see where people are coming from when they say it's a social game that's what an MMO is... Personally I think that is lame reasoning, and isn't a very realistic view of people. Not everyone is an extrovert and wants to do big group things, some people play these games because they love immersive worlds and want to go explore.

The difference there is "explore =/= get cool rewards". You're always free to explore all you want, but don't expect handouts from the game for participating in content meant for big groups as a solo player.

Just as it's silly to expect a soloable experience in smth like LoL or Dota2, it's silly to expect the same lvl of rewards for soloing an mmo as a party/raid would get.

You absolutely should get things for doing things... I didn't say you should get the same things though, yes there should be different styles of rewards for different gameplay.

No using LoL and dota isn't a good comparison, that's apples and oranges. But people play RPGs for different things. There are people who want to raid/dungeon, PvP, craft, explore, roleplay, etc... All aspects of the game should have some kind reward or progression... Again not saying all rewards are equal, but doing something should get you something.

Hinotori

It all boils down to how "solo" the solo player is.

There'll for sure be content a solo player can do out in the world.

If they just want to not join a guild but still pug up for content they'll be fine.

But a "pure" solo player won't be able to solo raid bosses and if they're adamant at remaining pure solo to the extent that they refuse to join towns or even caravan raids/defence I'd be questioning why they even bothered to try an MMO

Azherae

Asgorath wrote: »

There are hard-core players who just play solo, they team up to fight World Bosses from time to time. What are the risks vs rewards for hardcore players? Flight mount I recall that only Guild can earn flying mount or ships. IT will be nice for those hard-working hardcore solo players to get this playing city lol.

I don't think that those items are guild-locked in this game, I don't remember seeing any indications of that.

I've asked someone to add a related question to this month's Q&A, hopefully it will get a look or some clarification.

I'm assuming you mean the usual 'high skill solo player who has the highest contribution to a fight' scenario, and asking if that player has the option to get the good drops too or if it will automatically go to a guild.

In Ashes, there may be some additional concerns here. Basically, 'spoiling'. It might not be possible for a player who chose the profession "Master Farmer" for their normal play to do the 'solo boss down' and actually have the skill/item required to get their preferred/correct loot off the boss.

You might need a Guild with the correct Artisan type to gather the item, and if solo, then you can't do it. As for whether this applies to things like flying mount eggs, it was asked, but we might not get a clear answer since the question has a lot of prerequisite parts...

Caww

The question at hand will be best answered after AoC does a full launch with all existing initial content in place. I mention this only to say that posing the question so early means that the alpha2 may not provide a true picture of the solo experience. The betas are supposed to be much closer to a launch environment and we can get a glimpse then.

Kilion

@Azherae From the Wiki on Flying Mounts: "Royal mounts are capable of true flight when utilized by Mayors of metropolis nodes or Kings and Queens of Guild castles." This sounds like a mount capable of flying might be obtainable by "anyone" but only few will have the actual authority to utilize that true flying ability.

Meaning even though a solo player might get their hands on a mount capable of true flying, as long as they are not a mayor they won't be able to use that. And for a solo player the title of King or Queen is not obtainable as it takes a guild to successfully lay siege to a castle.

Azherae

Kilion wrote: »

@Azherae From the Wiki on Flying Mounts: "Royal mounts are capable of true flight when utilized by Mayors of metropolis nodes or Kings and Queens of Guild castles." This sounds like a mount capable of flying might be obtainable by "anyone" but only few will have the actual authority to utilize that true flying ability.

Meaning even though a solo player might get their hands on a mount capable of true flying, as long as they are not a mayor they won't be able to use that. And for a solo player the title of King or Queen is not obtainable as it takes a guild to successfully lay siege to a castle.

From the same:

Flight capable royal mounts are also dropped from World bosses as eggs. These mounts will have a life-span likely between 15 to 30 days (online and offline time)[3] after which the mounts will pass away.[4][6]

I understand if you perceive this line to mean 'Even if you got the drop you can't use it unless you are a Metro Mayor, King or Queen', but the rest of the information on the page doesn't imply that to me.

In any case, the OP's question is moreso about the generality of 'if you are sufficiently strong solo can you get drops'. In certain games you are outright locked out of using the drop even if you get it.

Kilion

Azherae wrote: »

Kilion wrote: »

@Azherae From the Wiki on Flying Mounts: "Royal mounts are capable of true flight when utilized by Mayors of metropolis nodes or Kings and Queens of Guild castles." This sounds like a mount capable of flying might be obtainable by "anyone" but only few will have the actual authority to utilize that true flying ability.

Meaning even though a solo player might get their hands on a mount capable of true flying, as long as they are not a mayor they won't be able to use that. And for a solo player the title of King or Queen is not obtainable as it takes a guild to successfully lay siege to a castle.

From the same:

Flight capable royal mounts are also dropped from World bosses as eggs. These mounts will have a life-span likely between 15 to 30 days (online and offline time)[3] after which the mounts will pass away.[4][6]

I understand if you perceive this line to mean 'Even if you got the drop you can't use it unless you are a Metro Mayor, King or Queen', but the rest of the information on the page doesn't imply that to me.

In any case, the OP's question is moreso about the generality of 'if you are sufficiently strong solo can you get drops'. In certain games you are outright locked out of using the drop even if you get it.

That much is true. You theoretically get a drop on a worldboss that is a flying mount. It'll depend on how the contribution is calculated.

With that being said: The royal mounts last something like 30 days. If that is good enough for the top performing solo players to refarm flying mounts on a monthly basis, fair enough.

Azherae

Kilion wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Kilion wrote: »

@Azherae From the Wiki on Flying Mounts: "Royal mounts are capable of true flight when utilized by Mayors of metropolis nodes or Kings and Queens of Guild castles." This sounds like a mount capable of flying might be obtainable by "anyone" but only few will have the actual authority to utilize that true flying ability.

Meaning even though a solo player might get their hands on a mount capable of true flying, as long as they are not a mayor they won't be able to use that. And for a solo player the title of King or Queen is not obtainable as it takes a guild to successfully lay siege to a castle.

From the same:

Flight capable royal mounts are also dropped from World bosses as eggs. These mounts will have a life-span likely between 15 to 30 days (online and offline time)[3] after which the mounts will pass away.[4][6]

I understand if you perceive this line to mean 'Even if you got the drop you can't use it unless you are a Metro Mayor, King or Queen', but the rest of the information on the page doesn't imply that to me.

In any case, the OP's question is moreso about the generality of 'if you are sufficiently strong solo can you get drops'. In certain games you are outright locked out of using the drop even if you get it.

That much is true. You theoretically get a drop on a worldboss that is a flying mount. It'll depend on how the contribution is calculated.

With that being said: The royal mounts last something like 30 days. If that is good enough for the top performing solo players to refarm flying mounts on a monthly basis, fair enough.

Well, it was probably just an example (though obv idk, maybe 'can I get a flying mount' is all the OP cared about).

But it is a concern because some games are in fact really weird/dumb about what you can or cannot even initiate without forming a guild to do it, and that limits 'groups of solo players who happen to come together to do something', as the OP says, in their team-ups.

It would probably make a lot of difference if a few strong soloers in some area managed to spawn a boss and decided to fight it together, but the game basically went 'nah y'all aren't in a Guild so you don't get the drops'. I'd have considered this sort of thing impossibly bad design before I played BDO (not saying that BDO does this, only that it would not surprise me even a little if they did). But I do remember playing some game that actually did work like this. The 'main drop' only unlocks when a Guild Leader is in a party.

I at least know that BDO has no function for increasing the rewards for 'small group or single player defeats Field Boss' in the sense that it just 'rolls a drop table for everyone separately based on their performance', but that means if you solo something, you can't get anything 'better' than the 'drop table rolls for the #1 performer'. No 'bonuses for being the only one', not even 'get the extra rolls for the #2 and #3 spots too'.

Noaani

This is one of the more stupid threads I've seen on these forums for a while.

Asgorath wrote: »

What are the risks vs rewards for hardcore players?

The first thing to note here is that in a game where the economy is front and center as it will be in Ashes, *EVERYTHING* can be bought and sold, and thus *EVERYTHING* broken down to how much you earn per minute.

This includes eggs for Royal mounts. Steven has mentioned in the past that they can be bought and sold.

So, since everything can be bought and sold, and thus everything can be reduced down to the gold value, you then need only ask yourself what value of gold a solo player should be able to earn in relation to group, or even a full raid.

The answer is not as simple as "a solo player should earn 1/8th what a group earns, putting solo players and group players on an equal footing individually"- as som solo players may want. The reason this doesnt work is because it doesnt account for the added logistics of group play. In reality, an individual in a group should come away with twice the value after an hour of successful content to what a solo player makes in that same hour.

When it comes to a raid, the logistics are exponentially harder. Here, an individual should come away with twice as much as an individual in a group for the same duration, or four times what a solo player is able to earn.

As such, if it takes a raid 2 hours to get a single mount egg (assuming nothing else of real value), it should take a solo player 320 hours to earn that same value of gold, and be able to buy said egg if it is up for sale.

It is important to note that an item designated as both very rare and very desirable by developers shouldnt be put on solo content. If such an item were to exist in solo content, solo players would never get a shot at said content - groups or raids will camp solo content if that is where the desired drops are.

Now on to world bosses. Loot from world bosses - unless it has changed recently - is based on what party does the most damage to the mob (with a bonus to the initial party to tag the encounter).

In this system, a "party" refers to a group, raid or solo player.

The party that wins loot rights get the loot - all of it. There is no loot for second place. As such, a solo player wanting loot from a world boss would need to out DPS a raid, or get very close to it.

It would be a mistake to consider world bosses as being content for all. Steven has been very clear that world bosses are content that will likely be contested by top performing guilds.

It is important to consider that the point of group and raid content in an MMO is to encourage players to group together, and thus form bonds. As such, a solo player in a PvP based MMORPG is playing the game as incorrectly as someone playing that same game but refusing to PvP. Both are welcome to participate, and there will absolutely be a list of activities that each would be able to participate in, but there is no room for them to complain if things dont work out how they want as they are the ones with the self imposed limits.

BaSkA_9x2

Risk vs. reward should affect all players, solo or otherwise.

With that said, many aspects of Ashes are designed primarily for group play: I'm not saying that's good or bad, I'm just stating the facts.

If one plays 18 hours a day as a solo they'll be able to achieve a bunch of things, but won't be able to achieve a whole bunch of other things. If one wants to be as efficient as possible they'll probably want to find a group to play with, or else someone who plays with a group for 4 hours a day might be able to progress much more than them.

However, if one accepts these facts and still enjoys/has fun playing the game completely as a solo, then more power to them. Besides trying to address the zerg issue, I think that solo gameplay in Ashes must be viable but not incentivized.

IlII

Dezmerizing wrote: »

... I am sorry but why is this even a discussion? There are tons of advantages to being solo, and tons of disadvantages.

A few I can think of right away:
1. Move freely. AoC is a geographically huge game. If you are tied to a community, then you might not be able to go where-ever you please in order to be available for certain group activities.
2. Your time is your own. You dont have to wait for your pals to be online to progress.
3. Want to move? You can do so without discussing it with anyone.
4. Lend services to guilds/groups/communities needing more bodies. Pugging is a thing.

I am positive there will be plenty of solo players doing just fine in AoC.

Besides... Flying mounts? Can also drop from world Bosses or be extremely rare and difficult breedings from animal husbandry (if I remember things right from one of the streams).

Yes, thank you for saying that.

George_Black

What a lot of wishful thinking between you two.

In L2 it would take alliances to raid (and fight off enemies in pvp) an epic boss and loot the epic drop. An alliance had 4-5 clans, each clan had 80-100 members. Do you know how much negotiation took for who gets to equip the epic drop from the entire alliance?
And now you guys talking about some random solo dude grouping up with a guild, just to walk away with the flying mount egg?

Why do people like to be lied to?

IlII

George_Black wrote: »

What a lot of wishful thinking between you two.

In L2 it would take alliances to raid (and fight off enemies in pvp) an epic boss and loot the epic drop. An alliance had 4-5 clans, each clan had 80-100 members. Do you know how much negotiation took for who gets to equip the epic drop from the entire alliance?
And now you guys talking about some random solo dude grouping up with a guild, just to walk away with the flying mount egg?

Why do people like to be lied to?

Bruh I didn't say that, the other guy is the one who said something that I didn't even mention.

BlackBrony

Your reward is bragging rights. If you do it because of "incentives" then you only want more things, you don't wanna do it because you want, you want the gift.

Dezemi

George_Black wrote: »

What a lot of wishful thinking between you two.

In L2 it would take alliances to raid (and fight off enemies in pvp) an epic boss and loot the epic drop. An alliance had 4-5 clans, each clan had 80-100 members. Do you know how much negotiation took for who gets to equip the epic drop from the entire alliance?
And now you guys talking about some random solo dude grouping up with a guild, just to walk away with the flying mount egg?

Why do people like to be lied to?

Sighhh.

That would depend entirely on what loot rules are being used. That "random solo dude" can absolutely walk away with the mount if it is left to the regular "need, greed, pass" system. And if they use master loot then the "random dude" will know so beforehand and can decide not to participate if it does not suit them.

If the scenario of L2 would be true - and it would require multiple Guild alliances to bring down a boss - then I know I'd prefer the NGP system to avoid ninja looting between guilds; especially if I do not know the other Guild well. (And that is as someone who has been GM and officer in several guilds, some server competative).

I mean, I have given away very rare loot to random pugs back in the day, when they won the raid rolls. They contributed and get the same chance as everybody else.

Are the chances slim af? You bet. And situational af on top of that. But regarding flying in particular, it is about the same as it would be for a "regular" Guild player and the topic was regarding group players vs solo players. In short, flying is not going to be a thing for the vast majority of players.

Noaani

Dezmerizing wrote: »

George_Black wrote: »

What a lot of wishful thinking between you two.

In L2 it would take alliances to raid (and fight off enemies in pvp) an epic boss and loot the epic drop. An alliance had 4-5 clans, each clan had 80-100 members. Do you know how much negotiation took for who gets to equip the epic drop from the entire alliance?
And now you guys talking about some random solo dude grouping up with a guild, just to walk away with the flying mount egg?

Why do people like to be lied to?

Sighhh.

That would depend entirely on what loot rules are being used. That "random solo dude" can absolutely walk away with the mount if it is left to the regular "need, greed, pass" system. And if they use master loot then the "random dude" will know so beforehand and can decide not to participate if it does not suit them.

If the scenario of L2 would be true - and it would require multiple Guild alliances to bring down a boss - then I know I'd prefer the NGP system to avoid ninja looting between guilds; especially if I do not know the other Guild well. (And that is as someone who has been GM and officer in several guilds, some server competative).

I mean, I have given away very rare loot to random pugs back in the day, when they won the raid rolls. They contributed and get the same chance as everybody else.

Are the chances slim af? You bet. And situational af on top of that. But regarding flying in particular, it is about the same as it would be for a "regular" Guild player and the topic was regarding group players vs solo players. In short, flying is not going to be a thing for the vast majority of players.

This post just kind of shows you haven't played an MMO at this scale.

Looting happens within a given party - which as I posted earlier in this thread can be a solo player, a group or a raid. This party unit is the unit that is awarded loot rights, based on damage dealt.

If you have an alliance of 4 or 5 guilds, each bringing 100+ people, there is still only going to be one raid of 40 players that are given loot rights. As such, if that raid is set to need or greed system, only 40 out of the 400 - 500 players present in the alliance are given the option to need, greed or pass.

In content like this, on a scale like this, an agreement between all parties in the alliance is literally the only possibility.

Really though, on world bosses, it doesn't matter what loot systems are in place. These mobs will be taken out by guilds and/or alliances. A random solo player has no place with this content.

World events though, that is a different story.

akabear

And when a boss is taken down by a group that size, so long as the loot is not bind on pickup, what usually happens is whoever does pickup the key loot hands it back to the guild leader and then in turn the guild leaders finish off negotiation based on the loot.. woe betide the player that decides to run off with the loot in a group that size.

SirChancelot

Noaani wrote: »

Dezmerizing wrote: »

George_Black wrote: »

What a lot of wishful thinking between you two.

In L2 it would take alliances to raid (and fight off enemies in pvp) an epic boss and loot the epic drop. An alliance had 4-5 clans, each clan had 80-100 members. Do you know how much negotiation took for who gets to equip the epic drop from the entire alliance?
And now you guys talking about some random solo dude grouping up with a guild, just to walk away with the flying mount egg?

Why do people like to be lied to?

Sighhh.

That would depend entirely on what loot rules are being used. That "random solo dude" can absolutely walk away with the mount if it is left to the regular "need, greed, pass" system. And if they use master loot then the "random dude" will know so beforehand and can decide not to participate if it does not suit them.

If the scenario of L2 would be true - and it would require multiple Guild alliances to bring down a boss - then I know I'd prefer the NGP system to avoid ninja looting between guilds; especially if I do not know the other Guild well. (And that is as someone who has been GM and officer in several guilds, some server competative).

I mean, I have given away very rare loot to random pugs back in the day, when they won the raid rolls. They contributed and get the same chance as everybody else.

Are the chances slim af? You bet. And situational af on top of that. But regarding flying in particular, it is about the same as it would be for a "regular" Guild player and the topic was regarding group players vs solo players. In short, flying is not going to be a thing for the vast majority of players.

This post just kind of shows you haven't played an MMO at this scale.

Looting happens within a given party - which as I posted earlier in this thread can be a solo player, a group or a raid. This party unit is the unit that is awarded loot rights, based on damage dealt.

If you have an alliance of 4 or 5 guilds, each bringing 100+ people, there is still only going to be one raid of 40 players that are given loot rights. As such, if that raid is set to need or greed system, only 40 out of the 400 - 500 players present in the alliance are given the option to need, greed or pass.

In content like this, on a scale like this, an agreement between all parties in the alliance is literally the only possibility.

Really though, on world bosses, it doesn't matter what loot systems are in place. These mobs will be taken out by guilds and/or alliances. A random solo player has no place with this content.

World events though, that is a different story.

A solo player would probably only ask to join if it was to either take part in it just so he could see the fight as content he can't do alone, or if there are any cinematic or story progressions bits tied to it...
But if there isn't anything like that, AND no random loot chance they would get anything out of it, they probably won't bother being a part of it anyways as there isn't anything for them to gain.

Mag7spy

Risk vrs reward is you can "need" on every item drop as a solo rare, common or extremely rare drops

Dezemi

Noaani wrote: »

Dezmerizing wrote: »

George_Black wrote: »

What a lot of wishful thinking between you two.

In L2 it would take alliances to raid (and fight off enemies in pvp) an epic boss and loot the epic drop. An alliance had 4-5 clans, each clan had 80-100 members. Do you know how much negotiation took for who gets to equip the epic drop from the entire alliance?
And now you guys talking about some random solo dude grouping up with a guild, just to walk away with the flying mount egg?

Why do people like to be lied to?

Sighhh.

That would depend entirely on what loot rules are being used. That "random solo dude" can absolutely walk away with the mount if it is left to the regular "need, greed, pass" system. And if they use master loot then the "random dude" will know so beforehand and can decide not to participate if it does not suit them.

If the scenario of L2 would be true - and it would require multiple Guild alliances to bring down a boss - then I know I'd prefer the NGP system to avoid ninja looting between guilds; especially if I do not know the other Guild well. (And that is as someone who has been GM and officer in several guilds, some server competative).

I mean, I have given away very rare loot to random pugs back in the day, when they won the raid rolls. They contributed and get the same chance as everybody else.

Are the chances slim af? You bet. And situational af on top of that. But regarding flying in particular, it is about the same as it would be for a "regular" Guild player and the topic was regarding group players vs solo players. In short, flying is not going to be a thing for the vast majority of players.

This post just kind of shows you haven't played an MMO at this scale.

Looting happens within a given party - which as I posted earlier in this thread can be a solo player, a group or a raid. This party unit is the unit that is awarded loot rights, based on damage dealt.

If you have an alliance of 4 or 5 guilds, each bringing 100+ people, there is still only going to be one raid of 40 players that are given loot rights. As such, if that raid is set to need or greed system, only 40 out of the 400 - 500 players present in the alliance are given the option to need, greed or pass.

In content like this, on a scale like this, an agreement between all parties in the alliance is literally the only possibility.

Really though, on world bosses, it doesn't matter what loot systems are in place. These mobs will be taken out by guilds and/or alliances. A random solo player has no place with this content.

World events though, that is a different story.

Right. First of all, no. I have never played PvX games that require more than 300 players while enabling PvP (only PvE loot pinata bosses)... Not sure if that sounds like an amazing amount of fun or like an impossible terror fiesta.

If you are correct and those are the numbers required for world bosses then sure, I forfeit my case (although, I'd imagine pugging would be a thing with those numbers - but I dare not confidently say that guilds would be willing to roll out flying mounts to said pugs). Is there any confirmation on that those are the numbers for world bosses though? I'd imagine it might be the case for the "legendary world bosses", but for the regular ones?

Speaking of which - wiki has one quote that says flying mount might drop from legendary world bosses, and another saying that eggs might be acquired from "world bosses" - so I am not sure whenever both quotes are true (egg from regular world bosses, ready mounts from legendary world bosses).

Either way, before I drop the flying topic completely, I am going to repeat my point from the post you quoted:

When it comes to group play vs solo play (which is what this topic is about) flying isn't really something worth discussing. A regular level group player and a regular level solo player are both likely to never experience flying in AoC as it is reserved to much less than 1% of the server population. Even among the hardcore communities it is going to be rare af. Realistically, regular to "good" players will probably have gliding mounts at best (which is 100% fine by me - I prefer it that way). I mean, the flying mounts even comes with tons of restrictions like only being able to fly if mounted from the royal stables and only being able to fly 20-30 minutes at the time. ... ... And being killable (though they can obviously respawn like any other mount). : ] https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Royal_mounts

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