Sleep is OP

A 30 second CD seems like nothing when you look at the ttk on these mobs. I'm assuming players will have a similar health pool. Sleeps also typically last a long time in mmos but this looks more like a polymorph from wow except it doesn't heal you, which is broken. Just based off of the tools we saw available to the cleric tank and fighter, we need some defensive CDs on other classes to counteract this. This is the first class we've seen with both disengage and a hard CC. And yes, it is a hard CC idc what the wiki says.

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Vissox

Also did I mention AoE? Scary

Songcaller

Every time a new class is shown the class seems detached from the rest. Not even sure how the current iterations will be balanced. Ranger seems like it will devastate all of the other classes. You could sleep the ranger but the mage is so slow the ranger can make the leap and just continue to nuke.

Depraved

pretty sure your teammates will be able to wake u up and heal u...also don't clump together in one spot T_T

HybridSR

Might be OP in PvE but that's about it. Who cares, it's a PvP game.

and in PvP, If sleep is the same as L2, then anyone can give you a little tap and wake you up. Also seems to be short range and it will probably calculate vs your M.DEF. 30 second CD means it's a one time use in a fight.

Don't see anything wrong with this.

tautau

I like the sleep the way it works now. However, since a mage is more of an offensive class than a support class, I was a bit surprised to see the mage have sleep. I would have thought that bards and clerics would be the classes with sleep. Granted, mages will need it to survive well if hunting solo, but won't they generally be in groups?

So, I would gently suggest that sleep be given to other classes and taken from mages (or maybe mages have an individual target sleep, rather than an area sleep), given the extent of the attack spells that mages have compared to support classes (or what I assume support classes will have).

Vissox

HybridSR wrote: »

Might be OP in PvE but that's about it. Who cares, it's a PvP game.

and in PvP, If sleep is the same as L2, then anyone can give you a little tap and wake you up. Also seems to be short range and it will probably calculate vs your M.DEF. 30 second CD means it's a one time use in a fight.

Don't see anything wrong with this.

Your theory only works if anyone is dumb enough to break the sleep. The point remains that's so far no ability shown. Can give anyone enough sustain to deal with a free frost mage rotation into a sleep and to the same rotation all over again.

Vissox

Depraved wrote: »

pretty sure your teammates will be able to wake u up and heal u...also don't clump together in one spot T_T

You can't expect people to be in groups 24/7.

nanfoodle

Sleep is not OP. Any damage wakes them up. This would make it useless in large scale battles. It could be helpful in small groups of PvP, 2v2 to 5v5. Even then it will take some coronation. Also look what it comes from, the glass cannon. They need powerful spells and even then, people will focus fire the biggest threat first. Healers and Glass cannons and almost always the first to get focus fired. Also its not AoE, looked like cone to me.

Vissox

nanfoodle wrote: »

Sleep is not OP. Any damage wakes them up. This would make it useless in large scale battles. It could be helpful in small groups of PvP, 2v2 to 5v5. Even then it will take some coronation. Also look what it comes from, the glass cannon. They need powerful spells and even then, people will focus fire the biggest threat first. Healers and Glass cannons and almost always the first to get focus fired. Also its not AoE, looked like cone to me.

Again, why would anyone do damage to the BOD CC target? Look at WoW, do you see serious players breaking polymorphs and blinds? Yes, it is AOE they said so on stream, you can literally see it sleep 3 flower things at once. How often do you honestly expect massive open world fights? Is it really often to be a main factor in sleep balance? I don't think so.

nanfoodle

Vissox wrote: »

nanfoodle wrote: »

Sleep is not OP. Any damage wakes them up. This would make it useless in large scale battles. It could be helpful in small groups of PvP, 2v2 to 5v5. Even then it will take some coronation. Also look what it comes from, the glass cannon. They need powerful spells and even then, people will focus fire the biggest threat first. Healers and Glass cannons and almost always the first to get focus fired. Also its not AoE, looked like cone to me.

Again, why would anyone do damage to the BOD CC target? Look at WoW, do you see serious players breaking polymorphs and blinds? Yes, it is AOE they said so on stream, you can literally see it sleep 3 flower things at once. How often do you honestly expect massive open world fights? Is it really often to be a main factor in sleep balance? I don't think so.

I played an enchanter and a Bard in EQ1. I also played Every Bard class in DAoC. In my experience, the more people you have the harder it is to have people not break CC. Even in large organized raids with EQ1 vets, it would happen allot. Make it an encounter thats just random players, it will be rare sleep will be effective.

They did call it AoE but when the mobs was to the side of the mage, it did not get CCed, only what was in front of the Mage and FYI, cone is often called an AoE even thought its not really.

WHIT3ROS3

AOE = Area of Effect. Cone = Area. Cone = AOE.

As for the rest of the thread. Waste of time. A single ability can't be "OP" when seen without any context.

Ludullu

It is not OP

Noaani

WHIT3ROS3 wrote: »

A single ability can't be "OP" when seen without any context.

Basically this.

Depraved

Vissox wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

pretty sure your teammates will be able to wake u up and heal u...also don't clump together in one spot T_T

You can't expect people to be in groups 24/7.

and you wont fight mages 1v1 24/7

and you might just cc the mage while he is casting sleep and interrupt him...

Okeydoke

WHIT3ROS3 wrote: »

A single ability can't be "OP" when seen without any context.

I agree with this. I don't agree it's all necessarily a waste of time though. I mean what else are we going to do, play one of the currently available mmos? abahahahahahahaharoflmao

ethyrial echoes of yore mother LOL. ahh shit. I'm just jk. Major props to anyone who puts out a game these days to the savage group of neckbeards known as gamers.

Anyway, nothing wrong with raising concerns imo. But there's not much in Ashes yet to compare to on whether mage sleep is OP. The cool down of it, the range, the length of the effect, it existing as a mage ability, it existing as an ability period - all subject to change and balancing.

The skill itself does make me wonder if we're heading towards a type of combat where CC is very important. It's always important. But important in a similar fashion to DAOC from back in the day, where landing CC's was often make or break as far as who won fights between opposing groups. I imagine there's a thread somewhere on this forum where the topic of CC has been debated. I don't recall specifically though, may have been before my time here.

prymortal

nanfoodle wrote: »

Sleep is not OP. Any damage wakes them up. This would make it useless in large scale battles. It could be helpful in small groups of PvP, 2v2 to 5v5. Even then it will take some coronation. Also look what it comes from, the glass cannon. They need powerful spells and even then, people will focus fire the biggest threat first. Healers and Glass cannons and almost always the first to get focus fired. Also its not AoE, looked like cone to me.

I agree Sleep is not OP & why.
The cooldown is OP for PVE & God mode OP for PVP. At least 40sec PVE with current balance. PVP.... 60 seconds at least.

Voeltz

Mark my words, the same people on here swearing "Sleep not OP" will be the first ones crying for it to be nerfed after an enemy group AOE sleeps them and their pals for 10 seconds before they can do anything, followed by 5 coordinated charge up meteors dropped on their heads sending them 100-0. I've seen it plenty of times across all kinds of games with CCs far weaker. Any time In PvP you pair a long lasting AOE CC with high burst damage attacks, charge ups and ultimates, decimation follows. And that's only ONE way it can be used.

Some people will have to experience it to understand, but that level of power from one ability should only come from Ultimates. You don't need to be psychic to know there WILL BE high burst damage attacks in the game, and there won't always be a way out of CC. I already saw some in the same gameplay video.

Noaani

Voeltz wrote: »

Mark my words, the same people on here swearing "Sleep not OP" will be the first ones crying for it to be nerfed

How can you claim someone else will be the first to do something you have already done?

Ludullu

Voeltz wrote: »

Mark my words, the same people on here swearing "Sleep not OP" will be the first ones crying for it to be nerfed after an enemy group AOE sleeps them and their pals for 10 seconds before they can do anything, followed by 5 coordinated charge up meteors dropped on their heads sending them 100-0. I've seen it plenty of times across all kinds of games with CCs far weaker. Any time In PvP you pair a long lasting AOE CC with high burst damage attacks, charge ups and ultimates, decimation follows. And that's only ONE way it can be used.

I've played the pvp mmo that had this literal ability. It wasn't OP, it was barely even used, because people had resistances, people could hit each other out of sleep, some aoe would always hit awake or you'd just play better than be in a damn ball of people that can be aoe slept.

Also, if the enemy party can coordinate their hits that well, while in a high pace pvp fight - they deserver to win. In my 12 years of playing that pvp mmo with this skill I knew maybe a few parties that were close to that kind of coordination, but they always fought at a skill lvl where their opponents just never clumped up for it.

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

I've played the pvp mmo that had this literal ability. It wasn't OP, it was barely even used, because people had resistances, people could hit each other out of sleep, some aoe would always hit awake or you'd just play better than be in a damn ball of people that can be aoe slept.

Also, if the enemy party can coordinate their hits that well, while in a high pace pvp fight - they deserver to win. In my 12 years of playing that pvp mmo with this skill I knew maybe a few parties that were close to that kind of coordination, but they always fought at a skill lvl where their opponents just never clumped up for it.

So, this is something I've never understood about PvP players.

If the game has abilities that CC nearby players, why would any PvP player complain about that rather than just - you know - stand a little further apart?

With top end PvE content, this is a basic aspect of life. Sometimes you need to literally be standing on top of each other, and sometimes you need to be literally as spread out as you can be while still being able to hit your target.

To me, it should be a basic understanding that if you are going up against an enemy with the ability to CC in a small AoE, you simply don't stand close together. This basic understanding turns that AoE CC, with it's AoE CC cost, in to a single target CC with an AoE cost.

In regards to the specific scenario you are talking about above, I've actually seen many groups of players capable of that level of coordination - and been in a few of them myself. From my experience, it is just another of those things that are necessary (at times) in top end PvE.

In my time playing Archeage, I only saw one group of players that were even close to it though - a group I was not a part of.

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