Sleep is OP

A 30 second CD seems like nothing when you look at the ttk on these mobs. I'm assuming players will have a similar health pool. Sleeps also typically last a long time in mmos but this looks more like a polymorph from wow except it doesn't heal you, which is broken. Just based off of the tools we saw available to the cleric tank and fighter, we need some defensive CDs on other classes to counteract this. This is the first class we've seen with both disengage and a hard CC. And yes, it is a hard CC idc what the wiki says.

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Vissox

Mag7spy wrote: »

Spif wrote: »

I'm wondering if some/all classes will have access to some kind of self-CC break. Likely long cooldown and/or high cost. As primarily a grouping game, maybe not.

I'm sure that will be a thing like every other mmo with protection. There is so much we dont know about combat and how things are going to work.

But people are looking at it not as a alpha but like a game that is releasing. not considering they are looking at a game that is not finished lol. This is stuff ill give feedback as well eventually but when we know how everything with combat works. And even then this isn't a balance pass they are just making the functioning elements work.

Doesn't matter how many times you say it though will always have someone new that comments on it or compares to to games that have not only been finished but been out for like a decade.

Everyone here knows it's in alpha. How is intrepid supposed to know if something needs to be changed if noone talks about it? That's what these forums are for.

Vaknar

How do you feel about sleep, hard CC, and soft CC abilities in other MMORPGs? Or perhaps any other games with PvP, such as MOBAs? Do you like them, dislike them, or perhaps wish they were different in a way? I'd love to hear some more elaboration on these questions and this idea!

Ludullu

Vaknar wrote: »

How do you feel about sleep, hard CC, and soft CC abilities in other MMORPGs? Or perhaps any other games with PvP, such as MOBAs? Do you like them, dislike them, or perhaps wish they were different in a way? I'd love to hear some more elaboration on these questions and this idea!

No CC is OP as long as there's a way to cleanse it. Sleep should be cleansable by your mate hitting you or, if Intrepid want to forbid that action, there should be some item that can remove sleep (mb a rock that you can throw at a person to wake them up). And there should be at least 2 archetypes who have a general cleanse (probably cleric and bard), which would require the party to keep those 2 players apart to avoid aoe CCs. This would also allow Intrepid to have more hard CCs across all archetypes.

Veeshan

NiKr wrote: »

Veeshan wrote: »

Drop party flag up if sleep an issue and hit ur sleeping friend once to wake the ahole up if u realy need too

Just to clarify, we don't know if we can hit our mates currently. Steven said that we can't flag on them, but there might be a tiny chance that we'll be able to hit them if we're already flagged.

probaly wont be able to hit group members but dont see why u couldnt leave a group and hit them. either way just like sleep or anythign else to do with balance we need to play the game before we can accuratly comment on it.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Vaknar wrote: »

How do you feel about sleep, hard CC, and soft CC abilities in other MMORPGs? Or perhaps any other games with PvP, such as MOBAs? Do you like them, dislike them, or perhaps wish they were different in a way? I'd love to hear some more elaboration on these questions and this idea!

No CC is OP as long as there's a way to cleanse it. Sleep should be cleansable by your mate hitting you or, if Intrepid want to forbid that action, there should be some item that can remove sleep (mb a rock that you can throw at a person to wake them up). And there should be at least 2 archetypes who have a general cleanse (probably cleric and bard), which would require the party to keep those 2 players apart to avoid aoe CCs. This would also allow Intrepid to have more hard CCs across all archetypes.

This isn't true, actually. Knockback and Knock-Up can be made OP because it's not cleansable in any meaningful way, it's just a setback that is usually non-reactable.

Some might argue that knockback is not a real CC, but Colossal Blow disagrees with those people and they can die under tower.

You could similarly argue that if you have enough chance of resistance, no CC can be OP, and I'd agree there, but then you're getting back into the 'CC isn't technically OP but it is certainly not fun', and it can get to specific situations where it is reasonable to consider it OP if the situation that follows even the cleanse is too ridiculously disadvantaged to the target.

I don't know if Ashes would have the type of esoteric CCs I'm thinking about that cause that reaction, but MMOs don't usually shy away from them, so overall, I disagree with you here.

tautau

IIRC in L2, many strong guild parties would have several 2nd acct support toons following along routinely. In some of the scenarios presented above, those OOP (out of party) support toons could quickly wake the slept main party toons in various ways, such as a quick slap. Wouldn't this solve the 'problem' of sleeping the healer, the whole party, or other sleeping issues?

While you may not like the idea of 2nd accounts on a separate computer, Steven has said that is allowed therefore it is something that we can expect to be commonplace.

Vissox

Vaknar wrote: »

How do you feel about sleep, hard CC, and soft CC abilities in other MMORPGs? Or perhaps any other games with PvP, such as MOBAs? Do you like them, dislike them, or perhaps wish they were different in a way? I'd love to hear some more elaboration on these questions and this idea!

In MOBAS a lot of CC is dodgeable. Other than mouse over(aimed) AoE, I don't think this should happen in MMOs. I think at least 1 defensive cooldown should be available to every class, to either mitigate incoming damage, dispell the CC, or get away when the CC ends. (Like mage blink). CC is vital in PVP, but with a click and cast system where CC isnt dodgeable, there needs to be things you can use to interact. As far as PVE goes I'm less concerned. I understand that ashes will be rock paper scissors balanced, but a skilled pair of scissors should beat a terrible rock. Shit analogy I know but you get my point.

Ludullu

Veeshan wrote: »

probaly wont be able to hit group members but dont see why u couldnt leave a group and hit them. either way just like sleep or anythign else to do with balance we need to play the game before we can accuratly comment on it.

We can't flag on pretty much any mate, so unless we're talking the situation that tautau described - right now we might not be able to wake our mates with a hit.

Azherae wrote: »

This isn't true, actually. Knockback and Knock-Up can be made OP because it's not cleansable in any meaningful way, it's just a setback that is usually non-reactable.

This is where my lack of outside experience shows itself. What do those 2 effects do? I assume knockback just pushes you in a direction and knock-up throws you upward for a few seconds? If those are the case then yeah, I'd say that knockback is a CC only in the most literal sense of CC (as in, you're Controlling a part of the Crowd). The melee showcase had those rock mobs that pushed the character back with their hits. Would that be considered a CC then too? Cause that might mean that we could potentially have weapon passives with that effect (cause the effect itself is already in the game).

And if knock-up is what I said then yeah, that'd be the biggest CC in the game and I guess it could be seen as OP. But I'd definitely dislike it then, cause there'd be no counterplay to it. But I said as much in my original post. No CC is OP as long as there's a counter.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Veeshan wrote: »

probaly wont be able to hit group members but dont see why u couldnt leave a group and hit them. either way just like sleep or anythign else to do with balance we need to play the game before we can accuratly comment on it.

We can't flag on pretty much any mate, so unless we're talking the situation that tautau described - right now we might not be able to wake our mates with a hit.

Azherae wrote: »

This isn't true, actually. Knockback and Knock-Up can be made OP because it's not cleansable in any meaningful way, it's just a setback that is usually non-reactable.

This is where my lack of outside experience shows itself. What do those 2 effects do? I assume knockback just pushes you in a direction and knock-up throws you upward for a few seconds? If those are the case then yeah, I'd say that knockback is a CC only in the most literal sense of CC (as in, you're Controlling a part of the Crowd). The melee showcase had those rock mobs that pushed the character back with their hits. Would that be considered a CC then too? Cause that might mean that we could potentially have weapon passives with that effect (cause the effect itself is already in the game).

And if knock-up is what I said then yeah, that'd be the biggest CC in the game and I guess it could be seen as OP. But I'd definitely dislike it then, cause there'd be no counterplay to it. But I said as much in my original post. No CC is OP as long as there's a counter.

I don't really understand people who use this sort of reasoning.

For something to be 'over-powered', it only has to be 'outside the standard power scope of the rest of the system', not 'unstoppable'. If a tactic shuts down 90% of opposing strategies to the point where they stand no real chance and then when you put in all the effort to counter it, you've devoted so much energy to it that the rest of your flow requires you to play perfectly while your opponent basically 'hits a button and waits for you to do a lot of hard work to overcome it', this is 'OP' to me.

I know that you don't play a lot of games that make you personally care about balance (and also that you don't really care about it much yourself), but I'd hope that you could come to accept that in this world of competitive games, people will (correctly?) use the term 'OP' to refer to something that is just by its nature (not by its tuning) so much work to counter that you might as well give up or resort to using it.

There are many mechanics that I've personally removed from games or seen developers remove from games for this reason. Then again, I basically 'went to war' over this before and that took years so I guess there will always be holdouts who insist otherwise.

The problem in that situation came from the fact that once 'I removed the OP thing from the game', the population of people willing to play the version where it wasn't removed fell to basically nothing.

I still disagree with you, therefore, but I'm definitely familiar with your stance.

If you find yourself very precisely defining the semantics of 'a counter', there's no need to explain it to me, because the entire problem with balance in games is that people don't agree on what 'a counter' is.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

If you find yourself very precisely defining the semantics of 'a counter', there's no need to explain it to me, because the entire problem with balance in games is that people don't agree on what 'a counter' is.

Wouldn't "a general cleanse ability" be broad enough not to be considered a convoluted solution that requires a ton of work though? Like, if " a button that requires a ton of counter action" is considered OP, then wouldn't any stun, paralyze, sleep, be completely and utterly OP? Or is that your point and you'd remove all those effects from the game?

L2 had all of those, which is why I'm completely used to playing against them, but it also had a full cleanse on the healer class and a race-specific cleanse on a particular race of characters (that race didn't have healer classes), so imo all those effects weren't OP because there'd always be a solution to them on hand. It was a button that countered a button, no more work required.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

If you find yourself very precisely defining the semantics of 'a counter', there's no need to explain it to me, because the entire problem with balance in games is that people don't agree on what 'a counter' is.

Wouldn't "a general cleanse ability" be broad enough not to be considered a convoluted solution that requires a ton of work though? Like, if " a button that requires a ton of counter action" is considered OP, then wouldn't any stun, paralyze, sleep, be completely and utterly OP? Or is that your point and you'd remove all those effects from the game?

L2 had all of those, which is why I'm completely used to playing against them, but it also had a full cleanse on the healer class and a race-specific cleanse on a particular race of characters (that race didn't have healer classes), so imo all those effects weren't OP because there'd always be a solution to them on hand. It was a button that countered a button, no more work required.

For many others, that gameplay type is a bit shallow, and similarly, there's a subset of players who don't even experience that type of gameplay because the games that utilize it don't make it through their 'filter'.

It's actually because of this that you're probably going to see a lot more of these topics as we continue. Steven comes from the 'old days' of MMOs and L2 in particular, where that would be considered acceptable gameplay, but there are some that will not tolerate that anymore, hence the thread.

Some games DO remove those entirely given their design goals. I'm not saying that Ashes should or should not, and maybe I'm overstating the point here, but just consider one specific thing. Is Javelin a CC if you can't do anything during it and can only go in the direction the Tank pulls you with it?

You probably don't need to devote any time to discussing this with me, I'm moreso just pointing out that your definitions might not be the 'common' ones anymore. I can't say that with certainty either, I guess.

Azherae

Vaknar wrote: »

How do you feel about sleep, hard CC, and soft CC abilities in other MMORPGs? Or perhaps any other games with PvP, such as MOBAs? Do you like them, dislike them, or perhaps wish they were different in a way? I'd love to hear some more elaboration on these questions and this idea!

In MOBAs since the game design direction is different, I generally don't have a problem with most CC.

MOBAs are hard to compare because:

1. Respawns are easy
2. The number of possible opponents is limited to 5.
3. The number of tactically correct opponents is limited to 3 in most situations (basically if a 5v1 is happening and you stall the 5 long enough as the 1, you're winning fairly hard)
4. Their TTK on the Bruiser and Tank characters is often quite long, upwards of 30 seconds for the first to fall in a 3v3 even as some people get focused down, sometimes.

So I'd say it all comes down to what the team wants Ashes to feel like. Their basis and constraints are quite different and I don't envy them at all, having to balance 'having multiple hard CC in a game with 8+ expected enemy combatants at a time'.

Fortunately I expect that the groups that build a lot of CC will be the ones that suffer, not the ones who 'forego it'. I hope it's fun for them still.

CC is a great way to add dynamism to things with the right limitations and cooldowns, it's just hard to apply those to MMOs in a commonly enjoyable way, I think.

Noaani

Azherae wrote: »

The problem in that situation came from the fact that once 'I removed the OP thing from the game', the population of people willing to play the version where it wasn't removed fell to basically nothing.

If Blizzard released servers in 2009 that didnt have LFG/LFR, no one would have played on them.

That doesnt mean LFG/LFR were good for the game, it means players will always opt for the path of least resistance.

In regards to CC, sure, if you give people the option to play a game with CC or without CC, 99% of players would likely opt to play without CC. However, now you are left with a game that inherently has less depth.

Frustration in a game isn't a bad thing - in moderation. Players will always try to avoid it if you give them the opportunity, but that doesnt mean a developer should always give players that opportunity.

Noaani

Azherae wrote: »

This isn't true, actually. Knockback and Knock-Up can be made OP because it's not cleansable in any meaningful way, it's just a setback that is usually non-reactable.

In most games I have played with knockbacks and such, you dont generally have any means to react to them as you say, but without fail such games have a stat (stamina/constitution usually) that can prevent them from happening.

They are a for of CC that is a pure gear check rather than a reaction check, and in an MMORPG, both need to be valid - reaction check is a check on the player, a gear check is a check on character progression.

Sure, a knockback that lasts a few seconds may be overpowered,but in games I've played I think the longest I've seen is 0.25 seconds - barely more than an interrupt.

Abilities that have trip as an effect are a different story though. I've seen trips in some games that last 3 or 4 seconds, and not all classes have a counter to it (and there is no gear counter). I would consider that overpowered far more than I would consider a knockback with a gear check to ever be overpowered.

Okeydoke

Vaknar wrote: »

How do you feel about sleep, hard CC, and soft CC abilities in other MMORPGs? Or perhaps any other games with PvP, such as MOBAs? Do you like them, dislike them, or perhaps wish they were different in a way? I'd love to hear some more elaboration on these questions and this idea!

CC is pretty critical to add depth to tab target combat systems, that being what we seem to be headed for. Remains to be seen how much the reticle camera and skillshots will be incorporated into the game.

Make it tactical, make it have the ability to turn the tide of battles, make it needed in pve encounters, but don't go overboard with how powerful it is. And add a combination of any or all of the following as counterplay: diminishing returns, resistances, active defenses like cleanses, and personal CC breaks/avoidance.

Balance it. The more powerful the CC, the longer the cast time and/or the longer the cooldown. Just in general follow that rule. There may be exceptions, such as a class or build that relies on a fairly powerful CC being more readily available and usable, strategic use of skill points that enhance CC's for CC focused builds. But just use common sense balance in general. CC should be a force multiplier when used cleverly, but not an automatic I win card against overwhelming odds.

Songcaller

How do you feel about sleep, hard CC, and soft CC abilities in other MMORPGs?

I've seen cc throw games and cc making games. I'm a fan of hard cc but I feel soft cc also has a place. I often find cc has a short range and I do prefer longer ranged cc. I like sleep because it is a medium to long ranged cc. I've seen sleep used to great effect and I've seen sleep used in DnD. I love the versatility of sleep and I also love that you can often regenerate health whilst asleep.

Or perhaps any other games with PvP, such as MOBAs?

I love the counter play between cc and cleanses. Often you can't land a cc due to dodges rather than rng. I prefer the active dodges to rng misses. I also prefer the tactical aspects of the cleanses and the wards, protection and stat schools. I had hoped ashes would be very tactical rather than hyper fast and so far I haven't been disappointed.

Do you like them, dislike them, or perhaps wish they were different in a way?

I feel diminishing returns is a must and also a cleanse is a must. I'd even state that anti-cc trinkets are also excellent. You would have to learn the best applications though. It would be bad to be able to shirk every cc due to the multi-faceted anti cc systems. CC should affect the battles but CC without intervention is never a good thing. Hard cc which can't be countered is a bane of pvp. Sometimes a few seconds of a cc can be enough even when a cc has been countered.

JamesSunderland

Vaknar wrote: »

How do you feel about sleep, hard CC, and soft CC abilities in other MMORPGs? Or perhaps any other games with PvP, such as MOBAs? Do you like them, dislike them, or perhaps wish they were different in a way? I'd love to hear some more elaboration on these questions and this idea!

Some of them get it right some of them just doesn't, very rarely you will find a game where the CC is too weak that it becomes meaningless but you can certainly find those where the CC is just hella broken.

CC in general has a heavy connection to the games TTK in terms of balance aswell as things like:

Is there RNG chance to resist the CC or for the CC to miss?
Stats possibilities for players to build mitigation?
CC duration reduction and CC resistance or even short duration CC immunity skills?
Diminishing CC Returns or limit of CC sequence to deal with possible CC locks?
Cleanses?

When such variables are properly aligned CC feels just right as an excelent tool for players that gives more depth and possibilities to the combat and if RNG is present, some nice unpreditability to it.

Sengarden

Are we really having a conversation this lengthy about a spell being “overpowered” when we haven’t even seen the various classes fighting each other in the current iteration phase? Only half of them have even had their second public iteration showcased, and each representing a less than halfway to max level character. Sure, this may be a concern at some point, like when it actually matters at all. But I really don’t think we have much info to go on to tell Intrepid how it should be “fixed”.

You and I haven’t seen that ability or any other new versions of abilities perform in PVP combat, so what exactly are you pulling your fears and subsequent suggestions from? Other games, I imagine. Let’s wait to see how this ability works in this game with the rest of these classes at a relevant level of power, then provide actually useful, specific feedback on these types of concerns.

KoshmaryGods

Sengarden wrote: »

Are we really having a conversation this lengthy about a spell being “overpowered” when we haven’t even seen the various classes fighting each other in the current iteration phase? Only half of them have even had their second public iteration showcased, and each representing a less than halfway to max level character. Sure, this may be a concern at some point, like when it actually matters at all. But I really don’t think we have much info to go on to tell Intrepid how it should be “fixed”.

You and I haven’t seen that ability or any other new versions of abilities perform in PVP combat, so what exactly are you pulling your fears and subsequent suggestions from? Other games, I imagine. Let’s wait to see how this ability works in this game with the rest of these classes at a relevant level of power, then provide actually useful, specific feedback on these types of concerns.

Well said

nanfoodle

Vaknar wrote: »

How do you feel about sleep, hard CC, and soft CC abilities in other MMORPGs? Or perhaps any other games with PvP, such as MOBAs? Do you like them, dislike them, or perhaps wish they were different in a way? I'd love to hear some more elaboration on these questions and this idea!

I love them. As long as there is counters, it fits Ashes combat system. I loved DAoC back in the day where good coordination of a small group on 20-50 players could take out 200 players with tools like CC. Was a down right thrill. This a better option then ball groups going unchecked because players dont have tools to deal with that. No one wants to see Ball groups be the only tactic thats valid.

EDIT: I feel the sleep spell maybe under powered IMO. I would like to see CC be a bigger tactic in Ashes.

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