Misses, resists and other combat RNG

What are people's thought on the topic of RNG in combat?

1) My impression is that there will be no RNG misses or resists of damaging attacks. Same goes for effects from attacks like DoTs, CC or debuffs. If someone sends it your way, and you don't have a specific effect that keeps from landing, it's going to stick. You may be able to reduce the damage with resists/armor stats, but it won't just be completely nullified. I bring that up because after the mage preview I've been seeing a lot of comparisons to systems where you just stack resists to a specific element to not get hit by it.

2) RNG blocks, dodges or parries. My understanding is that the default level of evade/block/parry will be 0%. I don't think we've seen anything official related to this from the Devs other than active block showcased in the tank preview. There are a lot of options .Tank and rogue are the most likely classes to have something like this. Either as a passive X% chance to block/evade damage, or as an active buff that gives an X% chance. But since all classes could have rogue/tank/other

#1: IMO for a modern MMO, RNG missing/resists are not needed. It's just too huge of a benefit for an attack to completely miss, especially in a cooldown based system.

For #2, I'm also not a fan of anything passive. But a moderate-to-long-cooldown RNG-based defensive buff would be ok (Ex: gain 30% evade chance for the next 5 seconds). Even better would be a cooldown based buff that negates the next attack against you. I'm more interested in having active block or iframes incorporated into the dodge roll

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Noaani

Nerror wrote: »

On the flipside, if Intrepid was making an MMOFPS like Planetside 2, I would be against RNG elements in combat.

100% agreed.

This is something I am unsure of those with a background in more action oriented games really understand.

An RPG isnt necessarily supposed to be your skill at aiming vs your opponents skill at dodging or blocking, it is supposed to be your characters skill at aiming vs your opponents characters skill at dodging or blocking.

That isnt to say player skill isnt a thing, it's just that in tab target games player skill is more mental than physical - never more true than at the top end.

In one guild I was in years ago, someone passed around a MENSA test they had, and most of the guild had a go at it. For fun, one of the officers listed the results, and the list was basically identical to the existing list the guild had in terms of who we considered the best players.

I dont really have a point to make with this anecdote, I just found it interesting at the time (and still find it interesting now).

Edit to add; I forgot to explain why RNG is needed when the paradigm is character vs character as opposed to player vs player.

Without RNG, either every attack will hit, or every attack will miss. You can't have a 90% chance to hit without some form of RNG to designate that 10%. The idea of having literally every 10th hit miss would mean that players would just ensure every 10th hit is a small attack.

Without this RNG, a game that is character vs character as opposed to player vs player is over before it even starts.

Solvryn

Most action oriented players just don't stick to action only because they prefer it, they play tab at the highest levels as well.

The concept of a role isn't as archaic and myopic as it once was, as action combat and FPS both have roles and those roles are not diminished as a player needs to be strong in their role in order for their team to succeed.

Songcaller

At a core level, Output RNG simulates dice rolls. If all these games weren't based on DnD and had some other inspiration, output RNG probably wouldn't exist. I do love input RNG but output RNG is a cancer. There's a reason you don't see RNG in Esports environments and when an Esports World Cup was won due to an RNG Miss there was uproar.

Solvryn

Neurath wrote: »

At a core level, Output RNG simulates dice rolls. If all these games weren't based on DnD and had some other inspiration, output RNG probably wouldn't exist. I do love input RNG but output RNG is a cancer. There's a reason you don't see RNG in Esports environments and when an Esports World Cup was won due to an RNG Miss there was uproar.

Aye, doesn't fly in PVP.

Lodrig

Neurath, you keep saying I'm trying to make the game something it isn't, but the game clearly DOSE have miss chance and RNG in it already which your saying needs to be removed, while I'm just saying that distance for ranged attacks needs to be an input to calculating these miss chances. You're the one asking for the more radical change as you want total removal of a mechanic, now I don't have anything inherently against radical ideas (particularly when the game is in alpha that's the time for them) but your characterization of our respective radicalness is backwards.

And your justification is that you feel AoC should be or at least be as close as possible too an e-sports game even though this is nowhere in the game's goals, and frankly I do not think an MMORPG game could EVER be an effect e-sport game. Again, your desire is the one less in line with the games vision, simply because the game has PvP as a prominent goal does not mean it aspires to be counterstrike.

Songcaller

You need to read the wiki. The devs said arena will be esports if the demand is high after launch and Steven said there will only be rng in enchantment overcharge. Other than that, the devs said there might be input rng due to the seasons.

Lodrig

You only need to look the prior page where Character Stats are shown to see that your mistaken on the presence of RNG, so whatever dev quote your referencing is either a misinterpretation or out of date. Your entitled to your opinions, but not to mis characterize the current state of development.

Songcaller

Stats are input rng. Not output rng.

To be clear, some games can have 100% accuracy and you still miss due to output rng. I have no qualms with input rng, just output rng.

Ludullu

The best way to check whether there is output rng in Ashes is to hit lvl1 mobs as a much higher lvl character. If you ever miss - there's either output rng or the scaling of stat comparisons is quite mean to the attacker. If your 100acc can miss against 1ev, then I'd assume that you'd be missing quite a bit against any characters that are near your accuracy stats.

Noaani

Neurath wrote: »

You need to read the wiki. The devs said arena will be esports if the demand is high after launch and Steven said there will only be rng in enchantment overcharge. Other than that, the devs said there might be input rng due to the seasons.

Yeah, but the first comment was said in a "don't be stupid, MMO's aren't e-sport games" kind of way.

The comment about enchanting was that there wouldn't be any RNG *in crafting* other than enchanting.

In terms of combat, this is probably worth reading

RNG is always going to play a role in Ashes of Creation whether that be in PvP or PvE, but one way to mitigate that is through the action system. The action system is going to be far less sort of dependent on those you know dice rolls and there'll be far more in your own hands. They won't ever completely eliminate that but it's a way for us to sort of reward skilled play versus sort of tactical strategies type play.

Now, that is from Jeff rather than Steven, but still.

I find it somewhat interesting how this mirrors my comment at the top of this page about how tab target combat is more about tactics and strategy, while action combat is more about player skill (reflex and such). Neither one completely eliminates the need for the other skill type, it's just that each combat type has a predilection towards one or the other.

Songcaller

Yes, I understand your position. But you can't build a hybrid system based on one half of the hybrid. If there is rng output on tab skills, then I would gravitate to action skills. I think resists and immunities are enough. We don't need output miss.

You have the combat tracker. I've seen only one instance where a skill hasn't landed in the dev streams (sleep) other than that I couldn't tell if it was a resist or an rng miss.

Lodrig

You seem to have fatally misunderstood the concept of input/output RNG if you think a player stat called 'accuracy %' is input Randomness. The clear meaning of that stat is that when a player makes an attack there will be a dice roll and a certain portion of the time there will be a miss, it may be that the target has another stat and that two opposing rolls occur or percentages are subtracted, like your accuracy is subtracted from their dodge %. But in the end, this is all standard RPG hit chance math that dates back to 1st edition D&D and is THE classic definition of output randomness because it occurs AFTER the players action choice and determines the outcome of the attack. An example of input randomness would be how many goblins are in a room after you enter it, the player is presented the option to flee or fight the goblins, aka the input the encounter was random and then the player makes a choice of how to deal with it. The first page video explains it all perfectly.

Songcaller

Input rng changes the fundamental iteration of an outcome based on predetermined parameters. It can be environment or it can be inherent. You've described the output rng system when you went to dice roll after the input calculations.

There are reasons you can skip the output rng and just have input rng. You can affect input rng with a build but output rng is a constant randomness which cannot be accounted for. It literally takes player agency away.

Noaani

Neurath wrote: »

Yes, I understand your position. But you can't build a hybrid system based on one half of the hybrid. If there is rng output on tab skills, then I would gravitate to action skills. I think resists and immunities are enough. We don't need output miss.

You have the combat tracker. I've seen only one instance where a skill hasn't landed in the dev streams (sleep) other than that I couldn't tell if it was a resist or an rng miss.

To be clear, based on your description of input RNG vs output RNG (not a definition I've heard before), I actually do agree that output RNG is bad.

I've always been of the opinion that any action in combat should have it's outcome determined equally by both parties. This is what I've talked about on these forums previously as opposed RNG. Any time RNG is involved, it should be my appropriate stat vs your appropriate stat, with an RNG roll.

Basically, both involved parties should have the ability to influence the outcome of RNG via gear and buffs as appropriate.

The above post was simply clearing up what Intrepid have said on RNG, and making sure people know it will be (by necessity) a part of combat.

Korela

Nerror wrote: »

Character stats and skills have to matter, IMO, and not just in some flat numbers kind of way.

Yes. That's why random is bad - It negates power of stats and skills.

Nerror wrote: »

I think it improves the game experience when we get some unpredictability and chaos due to RNG.

Online games already has "some unpredictability and chaos" - the players.

Nerror wrote: »

It increases the skill ceiling for players to adapt to a series of bad luck RNG and still overcome the odds.

Nope. It decreases the skill ceiling because players are no more able to control the outcome of their actions. It rather increases the skill floor for no-brain-all-keys-smash-pray-for-rng players.

Lodrig

Neurath wrote: »

Input rng changes the fundamental iteration of an outcome based on predetermined parameters. It can be environment or it can be inherent. You've described the output rng system when you went to dice roll after the input calculations.

There are reasons you can skip the output rng and just have input rng. You can affect input rng with a build but output rng is a constant randomness which cannot be accounted for. It literally takes player agency away.

Yes, you have FATALLY misunderstood the input/output randomness distinction. Please go watch the video, repeatedly if necessary.

Input Randomness is random RESULTS that are presented to the player prior to choices, like the random map generation in a rogue-like. Output randomness is the random success of player actions after the choice to act has been made. It does not matter if a player is told what their probability of success is, or if their ability to make character build/gear choices will alter that probability. Nearly every RPG ever made has done both those things (I need to roll a 17 or higher to hit because of my +3 sword) and AoC seems no different, but that is still definitionally output randomness.

Ludullu

Lodrig wrote: »

Yes, you have FATALLY misunderstood the input/output randomness distinction. Please go watch the video, repeatedly if necessary.

Input Randomness is random RESULTS that are presented to the player prior to choices, like the random map generation in a rogue-like. Output randomness is the random success of player actions after the choice to act has been made. It does not matter if a player is told what their probability of success is, or if their ability to make character build/gear choices will alter that probability. Nearly every RPG ever made has done both those things (I need to roll a 17 or higher to hit because of my +3 sword) and AoC seems no different, but that is still definitionally output randomness.

Ok, great. This is all semantics that we should not give a shit about at this current moment.

Do you agree with Neura's point or do you want literally any and all points of rng in combat gone?

JamesSunderland

Korela wrote: »

Online games already has "some unpredictability and chaos" - the players.

Players can be way more predictable than you imagine, logical/meta patterns can be pretty well defined, without RNG inside the system itself.

Korela wrote: »

Nope. It decreases the skill ceiling because players are no more able to control the outcome of their actions. It rather increases the skill floor for no-brain-all-keys-smash-pray-for-rng players.

You simple don't consider "Adapting to the possibilities/outcomes of RNG" or
"Playing around the hand you are dealt with" a skill, without recognizing that your concept of skill is just limited.

Solvryn

https://inputrandomness.com/about/

Songcaller

Lodrig wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

Input rng changes the fundamental iteration of an outcome based on predetermined parameters. It can be environment or it can be inherent. You've described the output rng system when you went to dice roll after the input calculations.

There are reasons you can skip the output rng and just have input rng. You can affect input rng with a build but output rng is a constant randomness which cannot be accounted for. It literally takes player agency away.

Yes, you have FATALLY misunderstood the input/output randomness distinction. Please go watch the video, repeatedly if necessary.

Input Randomness is random RESULTS that are presented to the player prior to choices, like the random map generation in a rogue-like. Output randomness is the random success of player actions after the choice to act has been made. It does not matter if a player is told what their probability of success is, or if their ability to make character build/gear choices will alter that probability. Nearly every RPG ever made has done both those things (I need to roll a 17 or higher to hit because of my +3 sword) and AoC seems no different, but that is still definitionally output randomness.

The results of input rng aren't so random. You should know that if you have a higher stat than another then you will be much more successful if you've ever faced an Evasion Build and you couldn't touch them at first. In fact, the debate rages on because Evasion Builds want the randomness of RNG whilst those who oppose them want the certainty of build mechanics. Input RNG can literally make an evasion build obsolete, and Output RNG can make an Accuracy build obsolete.

The literal dichotomy of accuracy verses evasion is input rng at it finest. Output RNG is not related to accuracy or evasion, its literally just an extra calculation which determines whether an attack is successful or not. I explained you have some games with 100% accuracy but you still miss due to Output RNG. You seem to either not read my input or you have random output. The input RNG has already determined the effectiveness of the attack yet output rng does the same thing again with a randomised outcome.

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