NiKr wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Extrapolating some of those reasons would at least imply Ashes will have a similar success flow towards those player types. Would that then mean that, if Ashes manages to make their combat as good as they can, they'll compete with BDO? Can they even compete against the sunk cost of all those players, with both games requiring big time investments (BDO does, right?)?
Azherae wrote: » Extrapolating some of those reasons would at least imply Ashes will have a similar success flow towards those player types.
NiKr wrote: » Azherae wrote: » As for new users, BDO gets some new users who have no intention of playing competitively, because it is basically the prettiest 'lifeskilling' game available until ArcheAge 2 appears. This can definitely be the saving grace for Ashes as well and seems to be the route that quite a few western mmos are trying to take. Make a pretty and cool world to live in and let the people do random stuff in it. If Ashes somehow manages to come out before the majority of newly announced mmos do (that is if they are even real), I think they'll manage to grab a good piece of the playerbase pie. AA2 will definitely be the biggest competitor there, if the games come out within months of each other. I'd assume that it won't be a competitor if AA comes out way before Ashes, because it'll ruin itself soon enough and leave the people wanting a similar experience.
Azherae wrote: » As for new users, BDO gets some new users who have no intention of playing competitively, because it is basically the prettiest 'lifeskilling' game available until ArcheAge 2 appears.
NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » The main point you can make is the much younger crowd has not played games like these before, and it be a question is if they would like and enjoy it. I feel like they would again as long as the game is good, and still have a fun world and pve setting that doesn't feel dead and boring. This being something IS is working on and why i have different vibes with this game than others. Yep, this was pretty much what I was talking about. We'll just have to see how it pans out in AoC's case. Mag7spy wrote: » To the bdo part my question to counter would be what other PvP focused mmorpg out there has more numbers than BDO? It's more of a "what other pvp game is even out there". I feel like BDO has cornered the pvp mmo niche right now, due to it pulling in both the pvpers and the action combat people. Mag7spy wrote: » Though to the main part about being being raised up in this, is it is never a good example to bring up BDO because of the many issues the game has had and created a certain perception of it that stunts its growth atm. I feel bdo works against your point though of a younger crown not being into a open world pvp game with full flagging, no teleport, etc since this game does fit the bill for those in the many years, with its player count being consistent. I'd imagine that sunk cost fallacy plays a big role in that consistency. How many new players does BDO get in a month? Is there even a way to know that? Cause considering its design, I'd assume that majority of its current players are veterans that have invested a shitton of time and money into the game and don't just want to leave (the WoW effect pretty much). The "combat is amazing" thing definitely plays into BDO's hand, because any newcomer to the genre will probably at least try the game out cause they'd hear about it as soon as they ask "what's a game with good combat". The retention is the big question here. And it'll be an even bigger question when it comes to Ashes. In other words, I'm somewhat pessimistic towards the game's prospects right now. And I feel like it'll probably only get worse from here. Either through Intrepid changing their core design or by people seeing that Ashes is a niche within a niche game that doesn't appeal to them. I'd definitely be happy to get proven wrong though.
Mag7spy wrote: » The main point you can make is the much younger crowd has not played games like these before, and it be a question is if they would like and enjoy it. I feel like they would again as long as the game is good, and still have a fun world and pve setting that doesn't feel dead and boring. This being something IS is working on and why i have different vibes with this game than others.
Mag7spy wrote: » To the bdo part my question to counter would be what other PvP focused mmorpg out there has more numbers than BDO?
Mag7spy wrote: » Though to the main part about being being raised up in this, is it is never a good example to bring up BDO because of the many issues the game has had and created a certain perception of it that stunts its growth atm. I feel bdo works against your point though of a younger crown not being into a open world pvp game with full flagging, no teleport, etc since this game does fit the bill for those in the many years, with its player count being consistent.
Mag7spy wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » The main point you can make is the much younger crowd has not played games like these before, and it be a question is if they would like and enjoy it. I feel like they would again as long as the game is good, and still have a fun world and pve setting that doesn't feel dead and boring. This being something IS is working on and why i have different vibes with this game than others. Yep, this was pretty much what I was talking about. We'll just have to see how it pans out in AoC's case. Mag7spy wrote: » To the bdo part my question to counter would be what other PvP focused mmorpg out there has more numbers than BDO? It's more of a "what other pvp game is even out there". I feel like BDO has cornered the pvp mmo niche right now, due to it pulling in both the pvpers and the action combat people. Mag7spy wrote: » Though to the main part about being being raised up in this, is it is never a good example to bring up BDO because of the many issues the game has had and created a certain perception of it that stunts its growth atm. I feel bdo works against your point though of a younger crown not being into a open world pvp game with full flagging, no teleport, etc since this game does fit the bill for those in the many years, with its player count being consistent. I'd imagine that sunk cost fallacy plays a big role in that consistency. How many new players does BDO get in a month? Is there even a way to know that? Cause considering its design, I'd assume that majority of its current players are veterans that have invested a shitton of time and money into the game and don't just want to leave (the WoW effect pretty much). The "combat is amazing" thing definitely plays into BDO's hand, because any newcomer to the genre will probably at least try the game out cause they'd hear about it as soon as they ask "what's a game with good combat". The retention is the big question here. And it'll be an even bigger question when it comes to Ashes. In other words, I'm somewhat pessimistic towards the game's prospects right now. And I feel like it'll probably only get worse from here. Either through Intrepid changing their core design or by people seeing that Ashes is a niche within a niche game that doesn't appeal to them. I'd definitely be happy to get proven wrong though. Im sure a lot of it can be sunk cost, but at the same time what other new mmorpg is out there to play since BDO that is good? Lost ark, new world? When ashes is a finished game with content and combat based on its direction and it gets where it needs to be. It is the game people will be playing (that doesn't mean combat is perfect but the perception is it is fun). And all those systems and and pvp will bring a lot of new eyes and opinions. Some that like it, a lot that don't (which is nothing different that the old days where people avoided pvp) With gaming being larger now though you are going to hear more voices, but it also means there will be more people to play and enjoy it. Ashes with pvp is the only reason why I see it being called a niche game, but i feel it has plenty ability to surpass that and won't simply be a tiny community. The only risk of that is maybe kr games, but each one keeps being bad. Other risk might be riot mmorpg, but that will be for casuals.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » The main point you can make is the much younger crowd has not played games like these before, and it be a question is if they would like and enjoy it. I feel like they would again as long as the game is good, and still have a fun world and pve setting that doesn't feel dead and boring. This being something IS is working on and why i have different vibes with this game than others. Yep, this was pretty much what I was talking about. We'll just have to see how it pans out in AoC's case. Mag7spy wrote: » To the bdo part my question to counter would be what other PvP focused mmorpg out there has more numbers than BDO? It's more of a "what other pvp game is even out there". I feel like BDO has cornered the pvp mmo niche right now, due to it pulling in both the pvpers and the action combat people. Mag7spy wrote: » Though to the main part about being being raised up in this, is it is never a good example to bring up BDO because of the many issues the game has had and created a certain perception of it that stunts its growth atm. I feel bdo works against your point though of a younger crown not being into a open world pvp game with full flagging, no teleport, etc since this game does fit the bill for those in the many years, with its player count being consistent. I'd imagine that sunk cost fallacy plays a big role in that consistency. How many new players does BDO get in a month? Is there even a way to know that? Cause considering its design, I'd assume that majority of its current players are veterans that have invested a shitton of time and money into the game and don't just want to leave (the WoW effect pretty much). The "combat is amazing" thing definitely plays into BDO's hand, because any newcomer to the genre will probably at least try the game out cause they'd hear about it as soon as they ask "what's a game with good combat". The retention is the big question here. And it'll be an even bigger question when it comes to Ashes. In other words, I'm somewhat pessimistic towards the game's prospects right now. And I feel like it'll probably only get worse from here. Either through Intrepid changing their core design or by people seeing that Ashes is a niche within a niche game that doesn't appeal to them. I'd definitely be happy to get proven wrong though. Im sure a lot of it can be sunk cost, but at the same time what other new mmorpg is out there to play since BDO that is good? Lost ark, new world? When ashes is a finished game with content and combat based on its direction and it gets where it needs to be. It is the game people will be playing (that doesn't mean combat is perfect but the perception is it is fun). And all those systems and and pvp will bring a lot of new eyes and opinions. Some that like it, a lot that don't (which is nothing different that the old days where people avoided pvp) With gaming being larger now though you are going to hear more voices, but it also means there will be more people to play and enjoy it. Ashes with pvp is the only reason why I see it being called a niche game, but i feel it has plenty ability to surpass that and won't simply be a tiny community. The only risk of that is maybe kr games, but each one keeps being bad. Other risk might be riot mmorpg, but that will be for casuals. Do you personally perceive a difference between BDO's 'people can attack you but there are safe zones and most crafting is done in those and even if you die you just lose time' and Ashes' 'people can attack you, there are minimal safe zones and if you die you lose your gathered things'?
Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » The main point you can make is the much younger crowd has not played games like these before, and it be a question is if they would like and enjoy it. I feel like they would again as long as the game is good, and still have a fun world and pve setting that doesn't feel dead and boring. This being something IS is working on and why i have different vibes with this game than others. Yep, this was pretty much what I was talking about. We'll just have to see how it pans out in AoC's case. Mag7spy wrote: » To the bdo part my question to counter would be what other PvP focused mmorpg out there has more numbers than BDO? It's more of a "what other pvp game is even out there". I feel like BDO has cornered the pvp mmo niche right now, due to it pulling in both the pvpers and the action combat people. Mag7spy wrote: » Though to the main part about being being raised up in this, is it is never a good example to bring up BDO because of the many issues the game has had and created a certain perception of it that stunts its growth atm. I feel bdo works against your point though of a younger crown not being into a open world pvp game with full flagging, no teleport, etc since this game does fit the bill for those in the many years, with its player count being consistent. I'd imagine that sunk cost fallacy plays a big role in that consistency. How many new players does BDO get in a month? Is there even a way to know that? Cause considering its design, I'd assume that majority of its current players are veterans that have invested a shitton of time and money into the game and don't just want to leave (the WoW effect pretty much). The "combat is amazing" thing definitely plays into BDO's hand, because any newcomer to the genre will probably at least try the game out cause they'd hear about it as soon as they ask "what's a game with good combat". The retention is the big question here. And it'll be an even bigger question when it comes to Ashes. In other words, I'm somewhat pessimistic towards the game's prospects right now. And I feel like it'll probably only get worse from here. Either through Intrepid changing their core design or by people seeing that Ashes is a niche within a niche game that doesn't appeal to them. I'd definitely be happy to get proven wrong though. Im sure a lot of it can be sunk cost, but at the same time what other new mmorpg is out there to play since BDO that is good? Lost ark, new world? When ashes is a finished game with content and combat based on its direction and it gets where it needs to be. It is the game people will be playing (that doesn't mean combat is perfect but the perception is it is fun). And all those systems and and pvp will bring a lot of new eyes and opinions. Some that like it, a lot that don't (which is nothing different that the old days where people avoided pvp) With gaming being larger now though you are going to hear more voices, but it also means there will be more people to play and enjoy it. Ashes with pvp is the only reason why I see it being called a niche game, but i feel it has plenty ability to surpass that and won't simply be a tiny community. The only risk of that is maybe kr games, but each one keeps being bad. Other risk might be riot mmorpg, but that will be for casuals. Do you personally perceive a difference between BDO's 'people can attack you but there are safe zones and most crafting is done in those and even if you die you just lose time' and Ashes' 'people can attack you, there are minimal safe zones and if you die you lose your gathered things'? BDO pvp is pointless it is just about losing time and pits players against each other to increase the time cycle of the game for your progression. Ashes model is interesting and makes pvp meaningful and of course has consequences to balance it out. This kind of pvp is actually interesting to me. So there is a big different imo. In bdo i look at death as I'm spawn beside the person, node or with a tear and we fight for half a hour, hours, hours, etc. There is a loss of connection nd starts to feel more like an arena game.
Heljy wrote: » I assume that 'here at what AoC comes out, the average performance of the PC fleet will have increased. But you have to admit that the game has at least that. I was mainly talking about the gameplay consisting mainly of boting. seriously, this game invented the MMO with built-in bot, it’s crazy I think. I could be wrong, but I don’t think the public who are in AoC’s vision would be interested in that.
Depraved wrote: » why auto farm sucks cant aoe if ur auto hunting T_T
NiKr wrote: » Depraved wrote: » why auto farm sucks cant aoe if ur auto hunting T_T You see, that is just the wrong approach. It doesn't suck, because you can just not use it and be better than everyone who does. It literally makes it easier to be better than casuals.
Depraved wrote: » did u watch the video? the guy is aoeing manually...so playing manually > auto hunting. that was the point of my post ._. but its much better and rewarding to play manually.
NiKr wrote: » Depraved wrote: » did u watch the video? the guy is aoeing manually...so playing manually > auto hunting. that was the point of my post ._. but its much better and rewarding to play manually. And that is my exact point. Every casual player will be using autobattling. But because manual battling is way more profitable, you'll be way ahead of those autobattlers. Which means that autobattling is beneficial to anyone who doesn't use it.
Laetitian wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Depraved wrote: » did u watch the video? the guy is aoeing manually...so playing manually > auto hunting. that was the point of my post ._. but its much better and rewarding to play manually. And that is my exact point. Every casual player will be using autobattling. But because manual battling is way more profitable, you'll be way ahead of those autobattlers. Which means that autobattling is beneficial to anyone who doesn't use it. Huh? It could only be better for active players, if autobattlers (the active players' competition) would be playing manually if autobattling didn't exist. But wouldn't the real alternative you'd have to compare it against be that they wouldn't battle at all? So the existence of the autobattler just arbitrarily changes the gap between engaged and unengaged players. If that's the goal, you could just change the progression curve from the start. Save active players some time and still reward them to the same extent for the extent that they're ahead of the competition. Seems like a weak argument. It took a friend of mine a month of playing a good Western MMO to ask me why he had ever played Asian ones, and these types of mechanics are the reason why. I really don't think they deserve a word of defence, even if it's only "but it doesn't affect you." It's something that makes a game worse. Not bad. But worse.
Laetitian wrote: » If that's the goal, you could just change the progression curve from the start. Save active players some time and still reward them to the same extent for the extent that they're ahead of the competition. Seems like a weak argument.
Laetitian wrote: » It took a friend of mine a month of playing a good Western MMO to ask me why he had ever played Asian ones, and these types of mechanics are the reason why. I really don't think they deserve a word of defence, even if it's only "but it doesn't affect you."
Mag7spy wrote: » @Depraved If all the good content is at end game and base content is so bad not worth playing should be a good end game content loop etc. Else start should be fun from the beginning to the end.
Mag7spy wrote: » If all the good content is at end game and base content is so bad not worth playing should be a good end game content loop etc. Else start should be fun from the beginning to the end.
Heljy wrote: » "Get out fast AoC or you’ll be overtaken by Throne & Liberty"
Okeydoke wrote: » We'll see what Pax Dei has up their sleeve.
NiKr wrote: » I won't believe that game is real until it gets the Ashes alpha1 treatment
