How can we improve corruption and world pvp?

As it stands the community seems split on this topic, pvers seem to like the udea of corruption and harsh penalties for pking and pvpers seem to hate it, i myself think think the concept is good but the design is extremley flawed, at no point in time should a player drop armor/ gear as a result of dying in pvp, resorces and materials i can live with, so instead of having a 100 comment long argument lets brain storm some ideas to make it better for both parties,

On another post i read this week someone mentioned an idea of having corruption not come into play if you are attacked at night time, i think this is super cool and emersive, also corruption could be like a 15 minute debuff of stats after you PK but you dont lose materials or armor, what are your thoughts? For a pvx game that is mostly designed around pvp in my opinion the corruption system is way over the top, maybe there could be some zones that you are flagged in and others no

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LowQuey

Chicago wrote: »

tautau wrote: »

Out of curiosity, why don't you think a PKer should not drop armor &/or weapons? Do you simply think that it is too harsh, or is there a logical reason behind your opinion?

I think resorces is a harsh enough punishment on death, but weapons/armor is just to mucj in my opinion and not good game design, i feel like its a lazy fix for a badly designed game mechanic, dont get me wrong i think there needs to be a deturent for griefing and pking, but dropping armor or weapons isnt it

If the items were permanent then I would agree with you, however as far as I'm aware (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) item will have a limited lifespan in aoc so would only hasten them losing it.
Also would have to understand that the circumstances for gaining corruption is specifically KILLING non-combatants. That's deliberately killing those that do not wish for whatever reason to partake in PvP.
Back in the old days of WoW we had level 60s running around in stv killing level 30s for no reason without gain beyond "bullying" those of lower level. The corruption systems is designed to prevent this.

On the other hand I have always said that the corruption system is ultimately flawed in MANY ways. What's to stop you storing your good gear, going on a killing spree with rubbish gear and then dropping that when you die? Nothing. What's to stop you standing in an aoe to flag someone and then killing them when they're marked for pvp? If they make it so your aoesndont hit others when you aren't marked for pvp what's to stop you stealing farm until you are attacked, or standing in the way so a miss click marks them for pvp and killing them?

To me the corruption system is designed to prevent griefing, and sadly just gives a million more ways to grief others and get away with it.

Ludullu

LowQuey wrote: »

What's to stop you storing your good gear, going on a killing spree with rubbish gear and then dropping that when you die? Nothing.

If you PK a ton, you'll get a shitton of corruption that you'd probably have to clear through deaths. A ton of deaths. That means a SHITTON of penalties, because each death will have x4 penalties. That means going several levels below your current power lvl. And at high lvls returning back to your base strength would probably mean weeks of grind. If you have that kind of time to waste for just a few kills during a single killing spree - go ahead and do it. But I doubt a lot of people will have that kind of time.

And you won't be able to repeat that activity because of your PK count. So even if there is a lot of people willing to waste their time - it's gonna be a one-off thing.

Now, this assumes that PK count reduction methods will be very VERY costly and/or difficult to do. At least that's the feedback I'll be giving to Intrepid.

LowQuey wrote: »

What's to stop you standing in an aoe to flag someone and then killing them when they're marked for pvp? If they make it so your aoes dont hit others when you aren't marked for pvp what's to stop you stealing farm until you are attacked, or standing in the way so a miss click marks them for pvp and killing them?

Aoes don't flag you up unless you use them to flag up (by hitting a key combo).

If you can steal someone's farm - you already won. If their only choice is to flag on you - they'll either invite some help (be it for pve farming or to kill you) or they'll think that they're stronger than you. If they are stronger in pvp - you lost. If they're not - you've won the spot, congrats.

All of that is just a normal situation in an owpvp game. No griefing there.

LowQuey

I think you're missing the point. Griefers enjoy going to lower level players and making their lives hell. This makes the game less fun and isnt true pvp. Think about all the ways a higher level player can do this and get around the corruption system. There's loads. The corruption system does nothing to tackle this problem. And beyond, as you say, calling for help from friends who are also higher level, there is genuinely nothing to stop them doing it. At which point if this is the only way to stop them what is the point of the corruption system at all as you are relying on people not the system to fix the griefing.

Noaani

LowQuey wrote: »

I think you're missing the point. Griefers enjoy going to lower level players and making their lives hell. This makes the game less fun and isnt true pvp. Think about all the ways a higher level player can do this and get around the corruption system. There's loads.

I can't think of any ways they can do this.

The main penalty to corruption is the time it takes to work it off, not the chance of dropping gear. It is actually probable that the majority of times people gain corruption when the game is live, it will be worked out via experience gain before the player is killed.

The chance to drop gear is simply a mechanic to ensure players with corruption have an actual reason to want to work that corruption off - working corruption off is the penalty.

akabear

LowQuey wrote: »

I think you're missing the point. Griefers enjoy going to lower level players and making their lives hell. This makes the game less fun and isnt true pvp. Think about all the ways a higher level player can do this and get around the corruption system. There's loads. The corruption system does nothing to tackle this problem. And beyond, as you say, calling for help from friends who are also higher level, there is genuinely nothing to stop them doing it. At which point if this is the only way to stop them what is the point of the corruption system at all as you are relying on people not the system to fix the griefing.

Griefing low levels players can be common at game startup, less common after the game establishes. With the penalties higher with level disparity, and greater social consequences when the game IS established, I believe it will dissipate down to players who learn very quickly what happens should they cross wrong paths.
This is where the MMO part of the game hopefully has sufficient breath to shine.

Electronn

BaSkA_9x2 wrote:

... because of some biases most of the backers seem to have.

Once testing resumes I hope that carebears and PvE players won't have their opinions shutdown in the testing forum area like they are today, because I'm not sure if Ashes will have a healthy player base if it doesn't minimally cater to these kinds of players.

100%. Very well said.

It seems the Old Guard of this forum has good intentions in that they are trying to jawbone Ashes into being the ideal MMO for them, while not having the awareness that hitting those ideals will alienate the masses.

These people know who they are.

However, I honestly believe Steven understands that the most vocal members of today's forum do not represent the masses that will be so important to this game's future. Yesterday's WB demo reinforced this belief.

Ludullu

mcnasty wrote: »

These people know who they are.

Yes, it me

mcnasty wrote: »

However, I honestly believe Steven understands that the most vocal members of today's forum do not represent the masses that will be so important to this game's future. Yesterday's WB demo reinforced this belief.

Steven also made a kinda long tired sigh when Margaret brought up the question of "there's gonna be pvp around the boss". I'd imagine that all those masses wouldn't be all too happy when a stonger party just comes to the same boss, wipes the floor with them and then kills the boss easily.

The old guard is just trying to keep the game on its original rails, that were promised by Steven quite some time ago. So far we seem to be fairly successful

Ludullu

LowQuey wrote: »

I think you're missing the point. Griefers enjoy going to lower level players and making their lives hell. This makes the game less fun and isnt true pvp. Think about all the ways a higher level player can do this and get around the corruption system. There's loads. The corruption system does nothing to tackle this problem.

If Intrepid really wanted to prevent this kind of thing from happening, they could add an aggro trigger for strong mobs in the area. As soon as a lvl50 dude attacks a lvl<40 mob several lvl50 mobs aggro onto that dude and don't relent until he's far from the location. There, issue solved.

Due to how mob spawn locations will work with node progression, there supposedly will always be high lvl mobs together with low lvl ones, so this should be doable in theory.

LowQuey wrote: »

And beyond, as you say, calling for help from friends who are also higher level, there is genuinely nothing to stop them doing it. At which point if this is the only way to stop them what is the point of the corruption system at all as you are relying on people not the system to fix the griefing.

As akabear said, the friends part will be about the community and how it manages the game. Intrepid can't really do anything about that particular interaction. An asshole that doesn't let lowbies farm will be punished by those who're interested in those lowbies' success. It'll be guilds (that might have those lowbies as their mentees, or node mates who want their node to succeed, or just good samaritans that want to keep the game good).

Solvryn

mcnasty wrote: »

BaSkA_9x2 wrote:

... because of some biases most of the backers seem to have.

Once testing resumes I hope that carebears and PvE players won't have their opinions shutdown in the testing forum area like they are today, because I'm not sure if Ashes will have a healthy player base if it doesn't minimally cater to these kinds of players.

100%. Very well said.

It seems the Old Guard of this forum has good intentions in that they are trying to jawbone Ashes into being the ideal MMO for them, while not having the awareness that hitting those ideals will alienate the masses.

These people know who they are.

However, I honestly believe Steven understands that the most vocal members of today's forum do not represent the masses that will be so important to this game's future. Yesterday's WB demo reinforced this belief.

There's always been some weird gate keeping behavior when it relates to this community. A lot of PvP centric guilds gonna make sure they pay up for acting like that.

Just the way it is.

The good thing is Steven is now clear that he wants balancing and combat design mechanics tested in A2 by the players and I do enjoy that.

Hopefully that'll make combat really damn good.

LowQuey

akabear wrote: »

LowQuey wrote: »

I think you're missing the point. Griefers enjoy going to lower level players and making their lives hell. This makes the game less fun and isnt true pvp. Think about all the ways a higher level player can do this and get around the corruption system. There's loads. The corruption system does nothing to tackle this problem. And beyond, as you say, calling for help from friends who are also higher level, there is genuinely nothing to stop them doing it. At which point if this is the only way to stop them what is the point of the corruption system at all as you are relying on people not the system to fix the griefing.

Griefing low levels players can be common at game startup, less common after the game establishes. With the penalties higher with level disparity, and greater social consequences when the game IS established, I believe it will dissipate down to players who learn very quickly what happens should they cross wrong paths.
This is where the MMO part of the game hopefully has sufficient breath to shine.

I agree entirely, which is why the whole corruption system is pointless. Its a system designed to prevent something that cannot be fixed by a system put in place. PKing will happen until the community as a whole decide to prevent it. That will only happen through the establishment of the node/game where things become more "civilised".

I remember in vanilla wow my guild took over an entire horde village for 3 days. Could you imagine that happening any other time then right at the start of WoW? Of course not. 6 guilds and 100 randomers would desend on us in 5 minutes and kill us all.

My point again is that the corruption system is fundermentally flawed and cannot be fixed.

LowQuey

NiKr wrote: »

.
If Intrepid really wanted to prevent this kind of thing from happening, they could add an aggro trigger for strong mobs in the area. As soon as a lvl50 dude attacks a lvl<40 mob several lvl50 mobs aggro onto that dude and don't relent until he's far from the location. There, issue solved.

Not at all. This would just mean level 50s would be able to farm in lower level areas.

Due to how mob spawn locations will work with node progression, there supposedly will always be high lvl mobs together with low lvl ones, so this should be doable in theory.

I'd doubt they would combine the two as this would lead to big problems with lower level farming and make the above idea happening accidently far more likely making it even less viable.

As akabear said, the friends part will be about the community and how it manages the game. Intrepid can't really do anything about that particular interaction. An asshole that doesn't let lowbies farm will be punished by those who're interested in those lowbies' success. It'll be guilds (that might have those lowbies as their mentees, or node mates who want their node to succeed, or just good samaritans that want to keep the game good).

Which once again makes the corruption system itself pointless lol

Ludullu

LowQuey wrote: »

My point again is that the corruption system is fundermentally flawed and cannot be fixed.

What kind of system would you prefer to it then? Is there any system that would stop those kinds of actions? What kind of limitations would you need to implement into such a system to prevent it from fucking over player interactions.

Solvryn

NiKr wrote: »

LowQuey wrote: »

My point again is that the corruption system is fundermentally flawed and cannot be fixed.

What kind of system would you prefer to it then? Is there any system that would stop those kinds of actions? What kind of limitations would you need to implement into such a system to prevent it from fucking over player interactions.

Trying to dictate player behavior is fundamentally a fruitless task for a developer, people are going to grief no matter what. The answer to griefers is people actually going out and stomping the shit out of them, honor PKing. Go out there, fundamentally make the griefers log off. They either quit or log back in and don't try that shit again out of fear of getting camped.

People also forget that griefing comes in all forms, not just ganking someone over and over. The answer to that is also, going out absolutely dominating someone and letting them rethink their actions.

The current system in corruption doesn't allow much room for players to police others, letting players set the tone for server culture is the way to go.

Let the players contain grief players and shitbags.

Ludullu

Solvryn wrote: »

The current system in corruption doesn't allow much room for players to police others, letting players set the tone for server culture is the way to go.

Let the players contain grief players and shitbags.

Yeah, I do agree that the current system seems to be a bit too harsh to allow players self-police, but quite often people fail to self-police w/o some proper rules, which is why I still think that we need the corruption system but just an updated version of it.

But either way we still haven't tested it and Intrepid don't know how their current iteration will work with players.

Solvryn

NiKr wrote: »

Solvryn wrote: »

The current system in corruption doesn't allow much room for players to police others, letting players set the tone for server culture is the way to go.

Let the players contain grief players and shitbags.

Yeah, I do agree that the current system seems to be a bit too harsh to allow players self-police, but quite often people fail to self-police w/o some proper rules, which is why I still think that we need the corruption system but just an updated version of it.

But either way we still haven't tested it and Intrepid don't know how their current iteration will work with players.

Yep. The best way to deter PKing is by having honor PKers, PK them.

That's why I hope to have an expanded system.

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