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Do You Prefer Your 'Gear' Gains To Be Connected or Not Connected To Bosses (Lore Wise)?
Azherae
Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
Bear with me here, the precise question I want to ask is difficult to express. I'll put the question first as best I can, followed by context, followed by a game specific example. Read as much as you have interest/time for.
The Question
When a player gains abilities through gear in a game, that gear can be 'connected' to a boss, fight, or experience in lore, or it can be 'disconnected' by being available through many paths.(We are not counting 'buying the gear from someone else, because in the 'connected' form, you still know that someone fought the boss). Does this affect your immersion one way or the other? Do you prefer to feel your gains 'embodied' in your character as a personal thing, or do you prefer them connected to some 'concept in the world' even if this results in more drama over gear in some way?
The LoreMaster's Will
I'm also trying to formulate a question for a LiveStream for Steven specifically, that adds some context to this. Please feel free to discuss the question and philosophy too. We've seen specific gear ideas like the Titanbark Mail from Lord Oakenbane, Cyclops weapons, Carphin weapons, etc. These could be placeholders, they could be an indication of Steven's wishes as LoreMaster, they could be 'being debated'. I want to know if they indicate Steven's wishes because that influences a part of design that doesn't get directly addressed a lot.
If Steven wants 'Connected' gains, even if full gear never drops it's likely that materials will lead directly into 'Gear that tells a story'. If you see someone in "FullBring Armor" you know that they fought the 'Titanic Fullbringer'. Or you know that someone out there did. Perhaps give you the moment of thinking about 'specialists out there in the world who fight it'. Or reminding you of your experiences when you fought it. The 'memories' or 'immersive triggers' are contained in the gear itself.
If we use things like 'base gear augmented with gems/slots', or as suggested in another thread by @Laetitian, Item Stat Points that (I presume, they can clarify) would just be assigned to certain base gear, does it change the experience for you? If my presentation here seems biased it's because I know it affects it for me, and you can check my examples below. That said, any suggestions about how to succinctly phrase this question for next month are appreciated, it does not seem like one I can easily 'trim down'.
Basically:
"Does Steven prefer strong lore connections in finished gear (e.g. Cyclops Gear) between the source of the gear and the overall bulk of the stats it gives, enough that we should be expecting this to be a common part of itemization?"
Example 1: FFXI - Kirin's Osode/etc
Kirin is the top boss of the Shujin, the one beyond the Four Gods of Tu'Lia in FFXI. At the time of release, explicitly A Big Deal, full 'raid' content, level 92, summons his personal 'copies' of each of the other Four Gods, etc. I mention all this because the lore is part of the point. Expand the below if you don't immediately get the reference/relevance.
Example 2: Monster Hunter World - Empress Gear/etc
Monster Hunter World's "Lunastra" is an Elder Dragon that drops specific parts of itself when defeated, but MHW also has a 'jewel' and 'slot' system at higher levels, and unlike FFXI's Kirin (note that MHW has a different Kirin, I'm not talking about that one, hence Lunastra example) it is 'Lore Agnostic'. More powerful enemies drop better/more powerful jewels, but you don't have to remember which drops which, it's almost entirely random. At best, there's some weighting in the loot tables, so Kirin drops more Critical Hit gems, Vaal Hazak might drop more Speed Healing type Gems, etc. Honestly, this probably isn't true. RNG is just streaky. Expand below to get reference/relevance.
Example 3: Black Desert Online - Most Gear
BDO is very 'skill heavy', your gear often just represents 'tiers of skill' or 'slightly varied paths to the power caps'. Combined with a steep sloped 'mountain' to climb (and slide back down, at least in some versions/eras) this focuses everything on the player's time investment and sometimes a bit of their PvP skill (depends on the era) but generally Disconnects performance from gearing and puts it into Enhancing, which is fueled by nearly all activities. This means that players who play a lot and 'work hard' in some way can get to the same power level and type (mostly because there aren't many gear-based power types, or many gear differences, honestly). They still have a little from their World Bosses, but if you're not familiar, expand below.
Thank you for reading through whatever parts of that you found relevant. I wish I could make the 'question' better, but just throw whatever your thoughts on the matter are, in here, and maybe let Steven know if you're likely to have any explicit negative reactions to 'gating specific builds/stats behind specific boss kills' if he really desires the 'Connected' effect.
As for me, I'm ambivalent on that, it definitely increases my immersion, but I recognize that the downsides of it can also lower my other forms of enjoyment depending on the design, so this is a 'whatever Steven wants' situation for me, in the sense that I have no reason to disagree with any point on the spectrum between the two as long as the design fits the game. I've already got a full opinion on how this 'should' work in Ashes somewhere, but even that is based on 'all the defined priors', and those are subject to change like most other things.
Long live the Sandal Lord/LoreMaster.
The Question
When a player gains abilities through gear in a game, that gear can be 'connected' to a boss, fight, or experience in lore, or it can be 'disconnected' by being available through many paths.(We are not counting 'buying the gear from someone else, because in the 'connected' form, you still know that someone fought the boss). Does this affect your immersion one way or the other? Do you prefer to feel your gains 'embodied' in your character as a personal thing, or do you prefer them connected to some 'concept in the world' even if this results in more drama over gear in some way?
The LoreMaster's Will
I'm also trying to formulate a question for a LiveStream for Steven specifically, that adds some context to this. Please feel free to discuss the question and philosophy too. We've seen specific gear ideas like the Titanbark Mail from Lord Oakenbane, Cyclops weapons, Carphin weapons, etc. These could be placeholders, they could be an indication of Steven's wishes as LoreMaster, they could be 'being debated'. I want to know if they indicate Steven's wishes because that influences a part of design that doesn't get directly addressed a lot.
If Steven wants 'Connected' gains, even if full gear never drops it's likely that materials will lead directly into 'Gear that tells a story'. If you see someone in "FullBring Armor" you know that they fought the 'Titanic Fullbringer'. Or you know that someone out there did. Perhaps give you the moment of thinking about 'specialists out there in the world who fight it'. Or reminding you of your experiences when you fought it. The 'memories' or 'immersive triggers' are contained in the gear itself.
If we use things like 'base gear augmented with gems/slots', or as suggested in another thread by @Laetitian, Item Stat Points that (I presume, they can clarify) would just be assigned to certain base gear, does it change the experience for you? If my presentation here seems biased it's because I know it affects it for me, and you can check my examples below. That said, any suggestions about how to succinctly phrase this question for next month are appreciated, it does not seem like one I can easily 'trim down'.
Basically:
"Does Steven prefer strong lore connections in finished gear (e.g. Cyclops Gear) between the source of the gear and the overall bulk of the stats it gives, enough that we should be expecting this to be a common part of itemization?"
Example 1: FFXI - Kirin's Osode/etc
Kirin is the top boss of the Shujin, the one beyond the Four Gods of Tu'Lia in FFXI. At the time of release, explicitly A Big Deal, full 'raid' content, level 92, summons his personal 'copies' of each of the other Four Gods, etc. I mention all this because the lore is part of the point. Expand the below if you don't immediately get the reference/relevance.
Kirin drops a body piece explicitly called Kirin's Osode. Not even a chance of confusion here. It can be sold in a player's personal Bazaar (you interact with their character when you see them in a specific way, always active) but can't be Auctioned. But it's actually not that 'great' a gear piece for most situations, as it literally only gives 'big chunks of all base stats and some Light Elemental Defense', which is good for this discussion because...
FFXI also eventually added an 'enhancement' system for gear, and a specific form of it for the Kirin/Four Gods gear (to revitalize the content for a bit). You can put special effects onto the Osode, allowing it to match the special effects of some other gear pieces. You fight one of the other Four Gods and get an item that is normally used to spawn Kirin, but you break it up into 'Scraps (4)' and then use it as 'Enhancement Material' for any of their gear pieces, and it even enhances each one differently (the devs almost certainly just defined what types of stat blocks they wanted available and worked backwards, it's still somewhat luck, but you can cleanse and retry).
The connection is still there, though. In order for you to get the 'power' of an Osode, regardless of the enhancement, you have to 'think of Kirin'. By contrast, to get the enhancement you might 'forget which of the other Four Gods you fought to get the Scrap you used to power it up'. FFXI is very 'Connected' for most gear. Gear itself might be 'easily obtained, just purchased using some currency', but those only 'lose' the feeling of 'an associated fight', not 'an associated source'.
FFXI also eventually added an 'enhancement' system for gear, and a specific form of it for the Kirin/Four Gods gear (to revitalize the content for a bit). You can put special effects onto the Osode, allowing it to match the special effects of some other gear pieces. You fight one of the other Four Gods and get an item that is normally used to spawn Kirin, but you break it up into 'Scraps (4)' and then use it as 'Enhancement Material' for any of their gear pieces, and it even enhances each one differently (the devs almost certainly just defined what types of stat blocks they wanted available and worked backwards, it's still somewhat luck, but you can cleanse and retry).
The connection is still there, though. In order for you to get the 'power' of an Osode, regardless of the enhancement, you have to 'think of Kirin'. By contrast, to get the enhancement you might 'forget which of the other Four Gods you fought to get the Scrap you used to power it up'. FFXI is very 'Connected' for most gear. Gear itself might be 'easily obtained, just purchased using some currency', but those only 'lose' the feeling of 'an associated fight', not 'an associated source'.
Example 2: Monster Hunter World - Empress Gear/etc
Monster Hunter World's "Lunastra" is an Elder Dragon that drops specific parts of itself when defeated, but MHW also has a 'jewel' and 'slot' system at higher levels, and unlike FFXI's Kirin (note that MHW has a different Kirin, I'm not talking about that one, hence Lunastra example) it is 'Lore Agnostic'. More powerful enemies drop better/more powerful jewels, but you don't have to remember which drops which, it's almost entirely random. At best, there's some weighting in the loot tables, so Kirin drops more Critical Hit gems, Vaal Hazak might drop more Speed Healing type Gems, etc. Honestly, this probably isn't true. RNG is just streaky. Expand below to get reference/relevance.
So we have a direct contrast between the two systems here. If I see someone wearing Lunastra Armor, I know they fought it. Maybe even specialize a bit (RNG means you might need to fight 10+ just to get a full set). But their 'power' might be mostly in their chosen gems which tells me nothing about how they got it.
In fact, sometimes the random 'event' gear that they give out for cool looking cosmetics reasons has little 'base stats' or special 'contributes to a set bonus' that you might want, and in exchanges has more/better gem slots so you can customize it. Would this sort of thing disconnect from the 'world'? Someone running around in a full Gala set is probably quite strong still if they have lots of powerful gems in the slots or a really focused build made out of Gem combinations, but you have no idea what they fought or fight to get it, you can focus entirely on their personal skill, amount of time playing, etc. For all you know they just fought 1000 Great Jagras during that event with the big one where it literally spit up Gems. Optimal, but Disconnected.
In fact, sometimes the random 'event' gear that they give out for cool looking cosmetics reasons has little 'base stats' or special 'contributes to a set bonus' that you might want, and in exchanges has more/better gem slots so you can customize it. Would this sort of thing disconnect from the 'world'? Someone running around in a full Gala set is probably quite strong still if they have lots of powerful gems in the slots or a really focused build made out of Gem combinations, but you have no idea what they fought or fight to get it, you can focus entirely on their personal skill, amount of time playing, etc. For all you know they just fought 1000 Great Jagras during that event with the big one where it literally spit up Gems. Optimal, but Disconnected.
Example 3: Black Desert Online - Most Gear
BDO is very 'skill heavy', your gear often just represents 'tiers of skill' or 'slightly varied paths to the power caps'. Combined with a steep sloped 'mountain' to climb (and slide back down, at least in some versions/eras) this focuses everything on the player's time investment and sometimes a bit of their PvP skill (depends on the era) but generally Disconnects performance from gearing and puts it into Enhancing, which is fueled by nearly all activities. This means that players who play a lot and 'work hard' in some way can get to the same power level and type (mostly because there aren't many gear-based power types, or many gear differences, honestly). They still have a little from their World Bosses, but if you're not familiar, expand below.
The 'issue' with BDO World Bosses is that they aren't very skill based, though higher skill and gear does increase your chances of getting their rare drop. The drop chance is already very low though, if 50 people fight the boss, anywhere between 0 and 3 of those 50 are getting the big drop that day, and that's base version so enhancement go! More importantly for this topic, the 'sensible' thing to do is to put an Alt at the world boss' location, preferably of the class you can autopilot or slightly enjoy the boss on or can achieve highest DPS. This makes the gain further 'Disconnected'. I don't get Kutum boxes by 'using my main to fight Kutum', I log over there at 3 minutes before Boss Spawn if not otherwise busy. This doesn't apply to Ashes but it's a simple example of how far it can go in that direction. They've been trying lately to make this more Connected for some reason, offering Quests, special enhancement items, etc. Just think of it as them moving closer to one of the examples above for whatever reason.
The gear itself is still only really 'special' in one or two ways or perhaps 'the way it allows you to get to the main relevant caps for whatever', but this means most people just choose the easiest one or collect them all for different situations as they play more. I can't say with certainty if this is effective, I have too many biases against this game, but BDO players might be able to say if they have proper associations. I do know that outside of these World Bosses, there are Field Bosses that have similar drops, and there's some slight association.
The gear itself is still only really 'special' in one or two ways or perhaps 'the way it allows you to get to the main relevant caps for whatever', but this means most people just choose the easiest one or collect them all for different situations as they play more. I can't say with certainty if this is effective, I have too many biases against this game, but BDO players might be able to say if they have proper associations. I do know that outside of these World Bosses, there are Field Bosses that have similar drops, and there's some slight association.
Thank you for reading through whatever parts of that you found relevant. I wish I could make the 'question' better, but just throw whatever your thoughts on the matter are, in here, and maybe let Steven know if you're likely to have any explicit negative reactions to 'gating specific builds/stats behind specific boss kills' if he really desires the 'Connected' effect.
As for me, I'm ambivalent on that, it definitely increases my immersion, but I recognize that the downsides of it can also lower my other forms of enjoyment depending on the design, so this is a 'whatever Steven wants' situation for me, in the sense that I have no reason to disagree with any point on the spectrum between the two as long as the design fits the game. I've already got a full opinion on how this 'should' work in Ashes somewhere, but even that is based on 'all the defined priors', and those are subject to change like most other things.
Long live the Sandal Lord/LoreMaster.
Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
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Comments
maybe the number 1 best gear, but the 2nd best gear should be obtainable from other sources =x
(I thought the emote I added would clarify my point enough.)
@thread
I don't have particularly strong opinions about this.
I like it if there's strong rare gear for people to be motivated by, and depending on the rarity, others should be able to tell what they're looking at.
I am personally a big fan of having to adjust the content you pursue to the type of playstyle you want to enhance with your gear. It rewards both those who are able to opportunistically make do with what they get, as well as those who keep grinding the same content to get the specialisation they want.
This also facilitates any systems where items from single sources have unique (types of) characteristics, and unique identifiers (which is what your question is mostly about, I believe?)
But I can also appreciate other systems.
What matters more to me is that there shouldn't be too many players (say over 3%) who are significantly more than 30% more powerful than the median max-level player purely from gear advantages alone.
I think that's all I have to contribute.
Though I think an awesome lore bit that can be included in some of this crafted "Boss" gear would be that in the description of the lore it would include the "signature" of said crafter at the end of the lore piece. I do understand that the crafter can do this regardless if it's a Boss piece or not, but I don't think it'll usually be in the lore of said item. Not only does this give credit to the person who crafted it, but it also gives the reader an option to either
1. Go and reach out to said crafter to get the full story or significance behind said item
2. Give the crafter a small bit fame to be remembered by said reader. Which will add to the thought of "wow this is a very high tier item to craft, I know who I can go seek out if get some boss mats".
Of course both of those are a stretch, but it will help build the name of high end crafters who will be trying to get their name out there as Master crafters.
Obviously not every piece of gear needs a "lore" to be meaningful as you mentioned above in hard earned instances. But I think the mentioning of rare mats that aren't Boss mats can be included is said descriptions. For instance, if I was in a high end area that had difficult mobs, tons of potential ganking, and required high stats in wood chopping for the Ancient Tree that i'd be gathering off of, I would want my weapon that was relying on this mat to be made "high end" to have a reference to this. So now my Mace's Lore is described as "A Silvery mace that has a wooden handle using ancient bark from the Evertree ". This will cue and give other crafter's the understanding of "oh wow, this Evertree wood is nice af, I didn't know I could harvest that in the Jundark forest." So now reading this lore has given the reader insight on some new knowledge that is helpful on their Journey and will possibly attempt to harvest that bark next time they find themselves over there. So this remains "lore friendly" while also being useful for those who take the time to read.
I don't actually know if to expect this in Ashes at all.
This is bias from the game I come from, but simply put, FFXI has no concept of true BiS for most of its iterations.
There's 'BiS for you personally' which could come from something easy or something incredibly hard. There's 'good in many situations but never actually the best for almost any of them' (there's a lot of 'top level' gear like this) and there's definitely 'BiS according to the guide you are following because you don't feel like building your own style' in which case you should get it because it really IS BiS, someone else just did the work to discover that for you.
That game really doesn't like the concept of 'And this gear is just super strong compared to everything else you could get' even within the broader goals.
It makes inventory management a bit of a nightmare because you'll have like 4 different gear pieces for every slot and spend time working out before a boss fight 'which exact combination you want to wear to be optimal'. Or have gearswap macros to constantly change mid battle.
Ashes is taking the (imo) better approach of not letting you gearswap armor and such mid-battle, but I don't know if that means it will have 'Number 1 best gear' in that way. I guess I slightly hope that it doesn't. I'll put up with the inventory hell to have a more interesting experience, especially in a gear-agnostic PvX game where it will probably happen anyway.
Short preface for those who don't know me: I don't really care about gear; I have a hard time to see items as rewards or symbols of achievements, to me they're only tools or mementos in rare occasions. Worse, finding raids demand too much committed repetition, and the hassle of dealing with people, I almost never pursue the acquisition of anything close to BiS. For me, good enough is, well, good enough. Until it isn't or chance puts something better in my hands.
Lore, logic, and immersion
I'll be blunt. If we think about it, drops rarely make any logical sense. Mobs should be using the items they drop and we should see everything on them in the loot window: from dirty socks, pouch filled with seashells to epic hair pin and stolen Shield of Glory +3. A weak argument can be made that our characters disregard at a glance what is of little to no use and that we're presented only what remains of "value". Oversized monster armour and weapon? Poof! Pixie-size leather boots? Poof! Fire singed and arrow pierced silk shirt? Poof! Half eaten suspicious meal in a sack? Poof! Oh! That why quest items don't drop if you don't have the quest! You get the idea.
Lore wise, how is it that primitive creatures garbed in fur and colour beads also happen to drop fancy steel axes, enchanted with arcane magic that they don't even use? They found a cache or some buried treasures? Cool if it's hinted at.
All I'm getting at is that, often, direct drops are immersion "breaking" shortcuts for the sake gaming convenience. When it comes to immersion, the dragon should not drop a load of items: it should guard its hoard. Said hoard containing the items.
Boss & respawns vs. crafting
"Dormammu, I've come to bargain." And get your phat loot. Having no awe at the sight of powerful items, I'm not the type to make the conscious links between where it comes from, all the work/efforts it took to acquire it and the person processing it. You've beaten that boss and then the RNG on the drop table? Cool story bro. In my cruel and non caring approach, I would find it very immersive if, at respawn, all the epic/legendary drops from a named boss immediately return to it. Big sword goes poof, magic belt too and then pants go down to ankle level.
So yeah, I'm more into either receiving a reward from another organization for disposing of the boss (indirect reward) or having crafting material salvaged from the operation and then having both the possibility of many options to go with and the small sense of progression, like finding where another piece of a puzzle fit.
My biggest pet peeve from direct drop has to do with random drop. In Warhammer Age of Reckoning, my group of friends and I were stock doing the same dungeon twice a week for a month, not because we couldn't clear it, but because the gear for our tank wouldn't drop. We couldn't move to the next tier because of a stupid RNG. Then all his slots drop in the same week, and the next week the mechanic was changed so that you got a token every time the boss was defeated and could exchange those for the gear. It killed the mood, we didn't last long after that, neither did the game anyway.
Compared to Dark Age of Camelot... I could have a crafter tailor all my gear for the exact bonuses I wanted. That was great.
So, since I make no connection between gear and accomplishment and because I rather not think too deeply about immersion, I'm in that weird place in any rpg. In mmorpg, I see people all exited for getting a bigger number item that will allow them to do more damage on bigger number hp mobs and I go, meh.
Oh well, lots of words, hope some of them lead somewhere for some people.
Humanoid bosses that use gear should certainly drop those, but dragons, ancients and cyclops should not drop finalized items except for very, very rarely. Let players butcher their corpses for materials. Meat, scales, sinew, bones, blood, etc. for crafting armor, weapons, a fancy dragon roast and a cyclops blood potion that increases strength. Or as components that are added to rare metals and what-not in the processing skills to create magic ingots for the crafters to use.
I want BIS items from exploration, from successful node and castle sieges, from the mariner classes, from questing, and in general from hard achievements in all the categories there are in the game. I really hope Ashes doesn't turn into a boss-focused game in terms of gear gains.
In fact, I want Ashes to downplay gear importance and let us get upgrades to our characters instead. For simplicity's sake, let's say you complete a hard achievement doing whatever you enjoy doing in the game (fishing, defending caravans, sailing, crafting, and yes, killing a worldboss), and you get a permanent 3% bonus to melee, ranged or magic damage. Or armor, or a primary stat bonus. Something tied to the character. A gift from the gods enhancing their body permanently. Something more than a title and cosmetic.
"Some dragon boss drops its horns / fangs / teeth / scales -> crafted weapon/armor carries that dragon's abilities to a degree (bonus to lightning damage etc.)", to
"Outright dropping a legendary weapon well known in lore"
I'd welcome the former case, as that's kind of essential to create immersion in any RPG; and I'd like to see the later case be limited to only some of the rarest gear. (Just imagine IF Arthas actually drops Frostmourne in WoW, and a shit ton of warriors/paladins/deathknights ended up walking around it. Hahahaha immersion? Hahahaha.)