Off-topic Discussions from 'we have a new lead game designer bill trost'

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Noaani wrote: »

Trost coming on board is probably the best news anyone wanting Ashes to be more than just another pure PvP MMO like L2, Archeage, BDO or Albion could have hoped for (and yes, as far as MMO's go, those games are pure PvP).

Ashes in no way has shown signs of being purely PvP or being overly focused on PvP anyways, so that worry seems a bit unfounded to begin with in my opinion.

What I am optimistic about is that the final product that was New World will motivate him to be part of a better project without copy pasted towns, contradicting design choices and such. That paired with Steven being quite firm on how he wants the final game to work and the immense body of experience Trost brings should do for an improved development process.

Noaani

Kilion wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Trost coming on board is probably the best news anyone wanting Ashes to be more than just another pure PvP MMO like L2, Archeage, BDO or Albion could have hoped for (and yes, as far as MMO's go, those games are pure PvP).

Ashes in no way has shown signs of being purely PvP or being overly focused on PvP anyways

Yeah it has.

You can play Ashes in the same basic way as you play the above PvP focused games.

You can not play Ashes in the way you would play a PvE focused game.

Now, I'm not suggesting for a second that Intrepid should allow for that type of gameplay, but I absolutely will not sit here and let anyone make such absurd and baseless claims like the comment you made above.

As I have said many times, if Intrepid want Ashes to have long lasting appeal in the West (ie, not Korea), then they need to attract people that are primarily interested in PvE, but are happy to also PvP.

There is nothing at all to suggest that any such player would be interested in this game once it launches.

Liniker

Noaani wrote: »

Trost coming on board is probably the best news anyone wanting Ashes to be more than just another pure PvP MMO like L2, Archeage, BDO or Albion could have hoped for (and yes, as far as MMO's go, those games are pure PvP).

what are you talking about in what universe L2, AA, BDO or albion are pure PvP mmos? just because PvP isn't only reserved to arenas? god.... please protect us from these PvE guys 🤦🏻‍♂️

Noaani

Liniker wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Trost coming on board is probably the best news anyone wanting Ashes to be more than just another pure PvP MMO like L2, Archeage, BDO or Albion could have hoped for (and yes, as far as MMO's go, those games are pure PvP).

what are you talking about in what universe L2, AA, BDO or albion are pure PvP mmos? just because PvP isn't only reserved to arenas? god.... please protect us from these PvE guys 🤦🏻‍♂️

As far as MMORPG's go, they are as PvP as you can get.

See, this is the problem with you PvP focused people. You see anyone that wants more PvE than you as a "PvE guy". You immediately dismiss any such notions. Your assertion that I must be talking about any game in which PvP isn't arena only is a ludicrous jump - there are MANY steps in between those games and arena only PvP.

Again, this is another of those absolutely baseless comments that I am simply unable to leave be. Stop being so utterly ridiculous. Of fucking course there is plenty between open world PvP games like Albion, Archeage, BDO and L2 and arena only games - stop it with the actual and absolute bullshit.

You should know better.

Liniker

Noaani wrote: »

See, this is the problem with you PvP focused people. You see anyone that wants more PvE than you as a "PvE guy".

You and Dygz are literally the best possible example I can think of "PvE guys" lol

if you think those are pure pvp games be ready, Ashes is probably going to be your worst nightmare because there is absolutely zero reasons to PvP in BDO's open world, there are safe maps in albion with zero pvp, archege you can 100% play without doing pvp because its faction and maps aren't always in conflict

if by having open world pvp makes it a "pure pvp mmo" than I guess sure, if we are going to make dumb statements like that I can say mortal online 2 is a pure RP game because there are plenty of RP guilds in that game.

Chocometeor

All the best for the Team! good luck Bill!
But i think after the huge fails of Amazon especially in its ''Gaming Department'' saying that he worked a long time for it doesnt sound like a good thing to me.

And saying he worked on New World makes it even worse the game was really ''flat'' in its RPG elements.
Makes be a bit worried tbh.

daveywavey

Maybe he can bring about a resurgence of the good cosmetic packs!

Little excerpt from our guild discord about the Pig Rooster thing (the Pooster):

I think that says it all!

I know they don't want extra Alpha testers, but they can still go back to releasing us some awesome cosmetics...

BaSkA_9x2

I have no idea if he's good at developing games or not, but from his resume it seems he's worked on many awesome games.

I hope that he wasn't very involved with New World though. I don't expect him to talk shit about that game, but whoever made some of the design decisions for New World should stop making decisions. Saying you've worked on Amazon Games for a long time or, even worse, New World, shouldn't be something you're a proud of.

Noaani

I'm going to address your post in reverse order.

Liniker wrote: »

if you think those are pure pvp games be ready, Ashes is probably going to be your worst nightmare because there is absolutely zero reasons to PvP in BDO's open world, there are safe maps in albion with zero pvp, archege you can 100% play without doing pvp because its faction and maps aren't always in conflict

So, you said that you are concerned that Ashes is moving too much towards a PvE game, and then go on here to essentially say it is the most PvP MMO ever.

Great logic my dude.

So which is it, is the game heading too much towards PvE, or is this PvX game even more PvP games even the developers of said games consider PvP?

or were you just talking out your arse in your first post in this thread?

Noaani wrote: »

See, this is the problem with you PvP focused people. You see anyone that wants more PvE than you as a "PvE guy".

You and Dygz are literally the best possible example I can think of "PvE guys" lol

This is only true if you are unable to read.

As I have said many times on these forums, the MMO I have spent the second most amount of time in (a total of about 5 years) is Archeage. I specifically made a point of being the only pirate on the server for a good portion of the time I played - ,making me red to literally everyone on the server in literally every zone in the game.

I'm perfectly at home with PvP. Honestly, more so than most of the "PvP" crowd here.

The thing is, I am also a realist.

That realist in me says that no western AAA MMO will ever last 10+ years (the amount of time I spent in the MMO I have played the longest) without courting a solid core of PvE players.

This is because the thing you need for PvP to function is other players. If you don't have other players, you don't have PvP, you just have P.

The reason for the solution being solid PvE is simple - PvE players are PvP targets.

Players that are focused on PvP tend to leave a game if they are not winning in PvP (there are scientific papers that suggest a person will give up on an activity if they are not successful at least 40% of the time, that tracks with my anecdotal observations). This is why Archage under Trion went from fully packed servers to near empty BEFORE the heavy handed monetization game in, and honestly even before the changes to Thunderstruck Trees went live (if you played Archeage at release, you will know what I am talking about here).

PvP players are just like this, they jump in on a new game, play it for a bit, and unless they are basically running a server they tend to just leave. This is obviously a generalization, but when talking about MMO populations, generalizations are fine to talk about.

A PvE player, on the other hand, will stick in a game if they lose every PvP encounter. They are getting that 40%+ success from PvE - and if that PvE is actually good, they will be mostly fine with that.

A successful PvE player will stick in a game for 10 or more years (something Bill Trost knows all too well from his time at EverQuest). Get those people in an MMO with solid open world PvP, but do so in a way where they are actually happy staying in that game (lets be honest here, the bulk of the PvP crowd on these forums have no idea how to keep a PvE crowd happy), and you have a solid core of players in your game that are targets for your PvP players whom are now winning at PvP more often and thus are going to stay in the game longer.

Now, I have no doubt you won't bother reading the above, and will continue to point to me as being one of the "PvE guys". This is purely because of the lack of staying power PvP players have.

Kilion

Kilion wrote: »

Ashes in no way has shown signs of being purely PvP or being overly focused on PvP anyways

Noaani wrote: »

Yeah it has. You can play Ashes in the same basic way as you play the above PvP focused games. You can not play Ashes in the way you would play a PvE focused game.

I can't really see that. If one were to solely focus on PvP in Ashes, the mechanics as they are presented up until now make it extremely difficult if not impossible to progress in the way a PvX player (which I would define as the target player base). Node citizenships offer reduced advantages because PvP seems more globalized than the PvE portion of the game. The Castle Nodes need significant "PvE support" to sustain themselves through out the continuous sieges. Caravan raids require a player to be where the desired goods are actually passing through which is something that is subject to change as the "metas" in the different regions change. And equipment primarily is tied to artisan professions which seem to require from all I have read significant commitment in PvE to make timely progress.

Noaani wrote: »

Now, I'm not suggesting for a second that Intrepid should allow for that type of gameplay, but I absolutely will not sit here and let anyone make such absurd and baseless claims like the comment you made above.

Green: Not saying you did. Not sure if I used the word "unfounded" incorrectly? (I thought it is not a very strong word - wasn't meant as an insult or anything)

Orange: The comment the game is not overly focused on PvP is baseless and absurd or what were you referring to? Or on a more general note: Do you think the balance of PvP ad PvE is off?

Noaani wrote: »

As I have said many times, if Intrepid want Ashes to have long lasting appeal in the West (ie, not Korea), then they need to attract people that are primarily interested in PvE, but are happy to also PvP.

Agreed, to me it looks like the PvP content of Ashes will primarily function as an "unplanned redistribution" mechanism of PvE acquired resources. Which means that for the game to incentivize player to play long term it needs to make PvE rewarding enough that players will do it despite the loss of portions of their attainments.

Noaani

Kilion wrote: »

Kilion wrote: »

Ashes in no way has shown signs of being purely PvP or being overly focused on PvP anyways

Noaani wrote: »

Yeah it has. You can play Ashes in the same basic way as you play the above PvP focused games. You can not play Ashes in the way you would play a PvE focused game.

I can't really see that. If one were to solely focus on PvP in Ashes, the mechanics as they are presented up until now make it extremely difficult if not impossible to progress in the way a PvX player (which I would define as the target player base).

Take not of what I actually said - not what you think I said.

I didn't say that Ashes was solely focusing on PvP, I said it was looking to be as PvP as an MMORPG could possibly be.

Without the basics of world building inherent to PvE content, a game can not be considered an MMORPG.

As it stands now, Ashes basically just meets that basic standard. Any less of a world, and the game would not be able to be considered an MMORPG.

Keep in mind, when I am talking about PvE, I am not talking about harvesting and crafting and such (the activities likely required to maintain a castle), I am talking about shit to kill.

See my post above yours here for an overview of the rest of my thoughts on the matter.

Suffice to say - the game needs a massive focus on PvE from what it has now. It doesn't need any changes to the PvP systems in place, however.

Kilion

Noaani wrote: »

[...]
Keep in mind, when I am talking about PvE, I am not talking about harvesting and crafting and such (the activities likely required to maintain a castle), I am talking about shit to kill. [...]

Suffice to say - the game needs a massive focus on PvE from what it has now. It doesn't need any changes to the PvP systems in place, however.

I am afraid I'm still unsure what you think Ashes is lacking in regards to PvE. What does this "more", this additional focus look like? Or do you mean that they should show more of what the PvE-side of the game has to offer?

Noaani

Kilion wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

[...]
Keep in mind, when I am talking about PvE, I am not talking about harvesting and crafting and such (the activities likely required to maintain a castle), I am talking about shit to kill. [...]

Suffice to say - the game needs a massive focus on PvE from what it has now. It doesn't need any changes to the PvP systems in place, however.

I am afraid I'm still unsure what you think Ashes is lacking in regards to PvE. What does this "more", this additional focus look like? Or do you mean that they should show more of what the PvE-side of the game has to offer?

In order tp attract a player that is primarily PvE focused to Ashes from another game, Ashes needs to offer a better PvE experience.

One of the key things (note - not the only thing) to this regard is guaranteed access to content - something Ashes currently has literally zero of right now.

Now, I am not suggesting any ways to achieve this - not in this thread at least. However, if a guild with the above PvE focus can play a game where they can have their pick of taking on any one of 15 relevant encounters on a given night, or a game where they may have a chance at fighting off others enough in order to be able to have a go at one encounter on any given night, which game do you think that guild will play?

Fact is, Ashes needs to actually go a little beyond other games in regards to PvE in order to attract these guilds - and so far it is sitting at having literally nothing.

Liniker

Noaani wrote: »

So, you said that you are concerned that Ashes is moving too much towards a PvE game, and then go on here to essentially say it is the most PvP MMO ever.

Great logic my dude.

So which is it, is the game heading too much towards PvE, or is this PvX game even more PvP games even the developers of said games consider PvP?

or were you just talking out your arse in your first post in this thread?

It's hilarious how the only way you can be right is by creating an argument literally no one ever said, and replying to that made up argument lol

in which multiverse I ever said Ashes is moving too much towards PVE?

You used to at least make sense Noaani.

I said my concern is ashes CHANGING direction, that means I am Happy with the current direction and don't want it to change...... how do you from there to 'game is heading to PvE'...?

again, hilarious.

Noaani

Liniker wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

So, you said that you are concerned that Ashes is moving too much towards a PvE game, and then go on here to essentially say it is the most PvP MMO ever.

Great logic my dude.

So which is it, is the game heading too much towards PvE, or is this PvX game even more PvP games even the developers of said games consider PvP?

or were you just talking out your arse in your first post in this thread?

It's hilarious how the only way you can be right is by creating an argument literally no one ever said, and replying to that made up argument lol

in which multiverse I ever said Ashes is moving too much towards PVE? You used to at least make sense Noaani.

Cool, so, I misunderstood your factually incorrect and somewhat incoherent ramblings - that doesn't alter my point that the game needs to move more towards it's PvE content than it is now - though ideally without altering it's PvP - in order to deliver the PvX experience we were promised.

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Liniker wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

So, you said that you are concerned that Ashes is moving too much towards a PvE game, and then go on here to essentially say it is the most PvP MMO ever.

Great logic my dude.

So which is it, is the game heading too much towards PvE, or is this PvX game even more PvP games even the developers of said games consider PvP?

or were you just talking out your arse in your first post in this thread?

It's hilarious how the only way you can be right is by creating an argument literally no one ever said, and replying to that made up argument lol

in which multiverse I ever said Ashes is moving too much towards PVE? You used to at least make sense Noaani.

Cool, so, I misunderstood your factually incorrect and somewhat incoherent ramblings - that doesn't alter my point that the game needs to move more towards it's PvE content than it is now - though ideally without altering it's PvP - in order to deliver the PvX experience we were promised.

When you say more pve content you dont mean instanced content right.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Liniker wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

So, you said that you are concerned that Ashes is moving too much towards a PvE game, and then go on here to essentially say it is the most PvP MMO ever.

Great logic my dude.

So which is it, is the game heading too much towards PvE, or is this PvX game even more PvP games even the developers of said games consider PvP?

or were you just talking out your arse in your first post in this thread?

It's hilarious how the only way you can be right is by creating an argument literally no one ever said, and replying to that made up argument lol

in which multiverse I ever said Ashes is moving too much towards PVE? You used to at least make sense Noaani.

Cool, so, I misunderstood your factually incorrect and somewhat incoherent ramblings - that doesn't alter my point that the game needs to move more towards it's PvE content than it is now - though ideally without altering it's PvP - in order to deliver the PvX experience we were promised.

When you say more pve content you dont mean instanced content right.

Not necessarily.

It is one way they could go about it, but not the only way. Though as I said above, I am not going in to that in this thread - I have talked about it a lot on these forums in the past.

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Liniker wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

So, you said that you are concerned that Ashes is moving too much towards a PvE game, and then go on here to essentially say it is the most PvP MMO ever.

Great logic my dude.

So which is it, is the game heading too much towards PvE, or is this PvX game even more PvP games even the developers of said games consider PvP?

or were you just talking out your arse in your first post in this thread?

It's hilarious how the only way you can be right is by creating an argument literally no one ever said, and replying to that made up argument lol

in which multiverse I ever said Ashes is moving too much towards PVE? You used to at least make sense Noaani.

Cool, so, I misunderstood your factually incorrect and somewhat incoherent ramblings - that doesn't alter my point that the game needs to move more towards it's PvE content than it is now - though ideally without altering it's PvP - in order to deliver the PvX experience we were promised.

When you say more pve content you dont mean instanced content right.

Not necessarily.

It is one way they could go about it, but not the only way. Though as I said above, I am not going in to that in this thread - I have talked about it a lot on these forums in the past.

Well short form besides instanced content what would you want for more pve?

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Liniker wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

So, you said that you are concerned that Ashes is moving too much towards a PvE game, and then go on here to essentially say it is the most PvP MMO ever.

Great logic my dude.

So which is it, is the game heading too much towards PvE, or is this PvX game even more PvP games even the developers of said games consider PvP?

or were you just talking out your arse in your first post in this thread?

It's hilarious how the only way you can be right is by creating an argument literally no one ever said, and replying to that made up argument lol

in which multiverse I ever said Ashes is moving too much towards PVE? You used to at least make sense Noaani.

Cool, so, I misunderstood your factually incorrect and somewhat incoherent ramblings - that doesn't alter my point that the game needs to move more towards it's PvE content than it is now - though ideally without altering it's PvP - in order to deliver the PvX experience we were promised.

When you say more pve content you dont mean instanced content right.

Not necessarily.

It is one way they could go about it, but not the only way. Though as I said above, I am not going in to that in this thread - I have talked about it a lot on these forums in the past.

Well short form besides instanced content what would you want for more pve?

Two points with this. I am not talking about it in this thread - and it isn't a case of what I want, it is a case of what will get some PvE focused players in to the game.

hleV

Noaani wrote: »

As far as MMORPG's go, they are as PvP as you can get.

Wrong. That would be RF Online.

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