Aggro/Threat mechanics don't work in PvX

MMORPG's have traditionally used a system of mob AI called Aggro in which a mob will preferentially attack player characters which perform certain actions, primarily that of dealing damage to the mob but later expanded to things like healing friendly characters. This was a simple AI which fit the constraints of early computer processor cycles while producing mob behavior which was better than the most primitive system of just attacking the nearest target or most recent attacker. Such simplistic AI would have allowed trivially easy control of what character a mob attacked making for dull and unchallenging PvE.

Under aggro systems Tanking classes were given special skills which move them up the mob priority list despite a low damage output from the Tank. In essence they break the otherwise effective AI of a mob and force it into inefficiently attacking the character most resistant to that attack. So long as mobs are balanced around this mechanic the gameplay is reasonably compelling mix of puzzle, timing and teamwork and it makes the Tanks role of being a meat-shield far more skillful and enjoyable then it would otherwise be if it was completely passive.

The problem is that these whole dynamic collapses when the opponent is not an AI but instead another player with full awareness of how the game works and full freedom to attack whomever they wish. And yet Tanking IS a viable class in most PvP games because Tanks are built differently in such games so as to make opposing players either rationally choose to attack the tank rather than another target or allow the Tank to create situations in which opponents have no other option but to attack them thus expending offensive potential inefficiently.

AoC would be far better off replicating Tank design from PvP games such as Overwatch and LoL and pairing them with mob AI's that seek to replicate the rational choices that a human would make in combat that cause them to attack Tanks. This will allow Tank gameplay to be consistent from PvE to PvP.

Well established PvP Tank mechanics include targeted pull effects, silence or other enemy DPS reductions, 'vaulting' into the middle of enemy groupings, increased damage potential when surrounded, projectile shields and movement barriers.

Some new methods which might be explored would be 'blinding' type effects on opponents which allow only nearby characters to be seen and attacked. An effect which leashes a melee opponent to remain within a short distance of the Tank. A damage redirection from nearby allies towards the Tank. I'm sure other skills can be created which provide control of enemy damage which would be effective on both players and AI.

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Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

The more people around the more that can cycle the taunt, to want a taunt to work the same as PvE you have going to have target and aoe taunts. The more people that have skills like that more the often you will be taunted off the protection and more people it will affect in larger wars.

Yeah, but if the way the mechanic works is that you xant be taunted into are already under the effect of a taunt, and if you gain an immunity to CC (effectively very diminishes returns) after the effect of that CC has run its course, then you could have 100 tanks casting taunts on you non stop, and you would still only be affected by one every 8 - 10 seconds.

In a fast paced game, it is entirely possible that a taunt that moves tour camera may be a little disorienting. That's kind of the point,it makes you WANT to kill the tanks first, or at least distract them enough while your friends go after the healers.

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

The more people around the more that can cycle the taunt, to want a taunt to work the same as PvE you have going to have target and aoe taunts. The more people that have skills like that more the often you will be taunted off the protection and more people it will affect in larger wars.

Yeah, but if the way the mechanic works is that you xant be taunted into are already under the effect of a taunt, and if you gain an immunity to CC (effectively very diminishes returns) after the effect of that CC has run its course, then you could have 100 tanks casting taunts on you non stop, and you would still only be affected by one every 8 - 10 seconds.

In a fast paced game, it is entirely possible that a taunt that moves tour camera may be a little disorienting. That's kind of the point,it makes you WANT to kill the tanks first, or at least distract them enough while your friends go after the healers.

Im well aware you would be affect by one every 5-10 seconds that is still one every 5-10 seconds too much.

This point doesn't hold up it is disorienting and annoying so you go to kill them first? Effectively you could use the same argument about any skill that can ruin the overall experience of a game by saying kill them first.

The point i made earlier as well is a taunt doesn't mean anything about using your damage reduction against a player as well it doesn't make sense in action combat.

1. The skill would only last like a second or two, you aren't really testing out your defenses since you are just having a player focus you for a few seconds. Pretty much you are ruining the experience very almost minimal and no gain. Unless the taunt lasted like 5-10 seconds and was aoe so you could pick up 2-3 players it isn't doing much. And than the latter gets into broken level cc that are not fun for pvp.
2. Using it on a action based player again only ruins the experience and makes the game feel clunky where u random just can't control your camera. Which can be disorienting and very annoying even more so in larger pvp wars. This needs to be weighed in fun playability vrs just giving the taunt an affect like this for little to no reason. If players aren't forced to attack as well you are not testing how tanky you are.
3. As i said before this kind of taunt is more like a root, but one that would not be fun for any player to deal with and a much more annoying version of one. This kind of affect would benefit a bruiser and a assassin just as much, it isn't just isolated to a huge perk for a tank since it would just be a few second taunt or forced camera turn.

If a tank is going to test their durability you need to have true motivation to be attacking them, and not using a janky idea like forcing a camera to move that really doesn't force anyone to attack you. It just makes a game feel clunky.

This is why i suggest the idea of tanks having more zone control, and mentioned about having abilities that have a stronger affect on players unless the player attacks them. Creating a circumstance where players can reduce the effects or dmg on them, etc but attacking the tank or deal with the added consequences of not attacking them. It becomes a much more natural element that can lead tot he same result, without reducing the players experience in a way that takes control from players in the worse way possible with forced camera control.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

This point doesn't hold up it is disorienting and annoying so you go to kill them first? Effectively you could use the same argument about any skill that can ruin the overall experience of a game by saying kill them first.

Your camera being moved a small amount every 10 seconds or so is not disorienting.

If it were 5 seconds as you are saying (I never said 5 seconds, the difference matters), then maybe.

Even then, the point of a taunt is to force you to stay on the tank. There is no need for tau ts to work if you are already going after someone with a tank primary. Add this in and you completely negate the camera spin, while taunts in general are having the desired effect (making players want to kill the tank first).

The point i made earlier as well is a taunt doesn't mean anything about using your damage reduction against a player as well it doesn't make sense in action combat.

I still fail to see what damage reduction has to do with taunt mechanics.

To the points you numbered 1 through to 3. To the first point, a big part of the effect of a taunt would be a change on player behavior. I PvP, you would probably want to take the tank down first, rather than going after the healer. In essence, this version of taunt is having the desired effect even without needing to be cast.

Your second point and third points are basically the same - CC sucks. This applies to all CC, and to all players. In this regard, adding this to taunts in Ashes would just be like adding another CC variation. Stuns and roots are equally not fun, but are significantly more restrictive than this version of a taunt would be (especially if players adjust tactics to always go for the tank first).

As to your suggestion of zone control - that is what this version of taunting would result in.

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

This point doesn't hold up it is disorienting and annoying so you go to kill them first? Effectively you could use the same argument about any skill that can ruin the overall experience of a game by saying kill them first.

Your camera being moved a small amount every 10 seconds or so is not disorienting.

If it were 5 seconds as you are saying (I never said 5 seconds, the difference matters), then maybe.

Even then, the point of a taunt is to force you to stay on the tank. There is no need for tau ts to work if you are already going after someone with a tank primary. Add this in and you completely negate the camera spin, while taunts in general are having the desired effect (making players want to kill the tank first).

The point i made earlier as well is a taunt doesn't mean anything about using your damage reduction against a player as well it doesn't make sense in action combat.

I still fail to see what damage reduction has to do with taunt mechanics.

To the points you numbered 1 through to 3. To the first point, a big part of the effect of a taunt would be a change on player behavior. I PvP, you would probably want to take the tank down first, rather than going after the healer. In essence, this version of taunt is having the desired effect even without needing to be cast.

Your second point and third points are basically the same - CC sucks. This applies to all CC, and to all players. In this regard, adding this to taunts in Ashes would just be like adding another CC variation. Stuns and roots are equally not fun, but are significantly more restrictive than this version of a taunt would be (especially if players adjust tactics to always go for the tank first).

As to your suggestion of zone control - that is what this version of taunting would result in.

This is getting into subjective points and also you play more tab games. To me and a lot of people every 10 seconds will be annoying. And also you are not the one to decide on the protection time of a cc 10 second protection doesn't sound realistic in a game like this that will have higher pace combat as well as with fewer skills. They will need to make sure there are more consistent ways to catch a player on top of the ttk being longer.

If you are already going after the tank and you are adding camera spin it is going to feel like input delay and feel clunky. This is why i keep telling you it is bad design for action camera, if you played more games like this it should be very clear how bad things feel not controlling your camera for any amount of time as you are in the motion of combat.

Lets not assume you are going after the tank though as im talking about general flow of combat with many people around you. Or there could be other tanks and it is pulling your focus and making the gameplay and combat feel clunky. If you are holding W to move forward and your camera is being affect you are going to be moving in weird arcs it is not a good feeling, that is clunky.

CC sucks for everyone yes but it part of the game. But there is a big different between a cc rooting you normally or stopping you from moving. And a CC that physically effects your camera that will be disorienting int he middle of large fights. Which do to your camera also being affected you "WASD" inputs will all be clunky as you need to go off someone else's manual control of your cameras and not your own control.

As to your suggestion of zone control - that is what this version of taunting would result in.

To an extent yes but the point is it ruins the experience of everyone else and does it in a very boring way. The kit of a tank should be fun and have zone control not relying on a taunt, or using the taunt you design it in a way that ensures things are fun without bringing down the experience of every other player. You can put anything in the game you the balance of what it does and how it affects players should always be taken into consideration.

Why can we not think of ways to tackle this without lowering the bar of experience for the rest of the players?

Azherae

Mag7spy wrote: »

Why can we not think of ways to tackle this without lowering the bar of experience for the rest of the players?

Because that experience is intended. What you call clunkiness is what the rest of us consider 'the point of the ability'.

If I have a choice between 'being CCed so that I can't finish an aimed attack on a target in front of me' and 'being forced to point at another player so that the attack can be released and automatically hit that player' I'm definitely choosing the second.

And this is coming from me whose characters/Archetypes usually have frustratingly high execution requirements already. This implementation would not even phase me. I just accept "I have been taunted/grabbed and my best option now is to hit the Tank'" because that's the point of the taunt.

What feels clunky to you feels totally normal to me. Realistic? Probably not. Frustrating? Not at all. Clunky? Absolutely not.

You can throw out your usual 'You don't speak for everyone, me and a lot of people not in this thread don't like it!' but I am speaking only for me here. I'm not telling you that you should change your mind and consider it not clunky, but I'm also not finding many people in this thread who have your perspective so obviously no one here pays much attention to your 'me and a couple of the guys think this is clunky. You don't know them. they're definitely agreeing with me though, there's a lot of them'.

Ludullu

Have there been a game with this kind of mechanic before? Would be interesting to see proper reactions to it, rather than imagining how one or another group of people would feel about it.

Mag7spy

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Why can we not think of ways to tackle this without lowering the bar of experience for the rest of the players?

Because that experience is intended. What you call clunkiness is what the rest of us consider 'the point of the ability'.

If I have a choice between 'being CCed so that I can't finish an aimed attack on a target in front of me' and 'being forced to point at another player so that the attack can be released and automatically hit that player' I'm definitely choosing the second.

And this is coming from me whose characters/Archetypes usually have frustratingly high execution requirements already. This implementation would not even phase me. I just accept "I have been taunted/grabbed and my best option now is to hit the Tank'" because that's the point of the taunt.

What feels clunky to you feels totally normal to me. Realistic? Probably not. Frustrating? Not at all. Clunky? Absolutely not.

You can throw out your usual 'You don't speak for everyone, me and a lot of people not in this thread don't like it!' but I am speaking only for me here. I'm not telling you that you should change your mind and consider it not clunky, but I'm also not finding many people in this thread who have your perspective so obviously no one here pays much attention to your 'me and a couple of the guys think this is clunky. You don't know them. they're definitely agreeing with me though, there's a lot of them'.

What you are saying screams "I want this i don't care about it feeling bad more clunky" So indeed you are truly only speaking for yourself while not refuting all the points that make it clunky.

If that is the case more than equally people saying they don't' want it and also having a valid reason ontop of it would make more sense to listen to them.

"I have been taunted/grabbed and my best option now is to hit the Tank'"

You realize this can be done without clunky camera controls right? In my suggestion I already mentioned their effects are strong on you (within reason) unless you hit the enemy that has taunted you.

But if you are dead set, don't care about any other approach and want forced cameras controls no matter what I don't think there is room left for discussion so you can want what you want lol.

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Have there been a game with this kind of mechanic before? Would be interesting to see proper reactions to it, rather than imagining how one or another group of people would feel about it.

Closest is smite and it is very annoying, in a mmo this would be compounded by more players and not being designed around 5. smite only has a few character with this but they can be more liberal with their stuff including have skills that make your screen black.

You aren't going to find games with action camera that you are being taunted every so often and forced to look at something even more so in faster paced games. Any normal person would see why that would be annoying as well as the effects it brings. (Of course I'm talking about PvP, you can be more open in pve experiences)

This is why I'm saying it is a consumer idea, there are a lot of ideas on the forums and a lot of bad ones. Take for example game needs to release earlier, AoC is P2W, adding a jail system in the game players vote, on, etc.

I'm open to talking about things in a way that makes things work but the core of the issue with forced camera spinning doesn't change no matter how you implement it. It is one thing to get knocked back, it is another for your cameras to be spinning on a arc while you still have "WASD" movement as do to how the camera controls your movement it is going tot throw off all your inputs and feel clunky + disorienting.

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

Closest is smite and it is very annoying

Which chars do that? I wanna try looking at how it works. Cause I have an imagine in my mind how I'd prefer it to work or how I could see it working (w/o it being annoying for me), but I'm interested in a pre-established application.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Have there been a game with this kind of mechanic before? Would be interesting to see proper reactions to it, rather than imagining how one or another group of people would feel about it.

Yeah both Smite and Predecessor do it, one or two others do similar things. You know this is just me 'dancing around triggering Mag7', but it just isn't that big a deal to a lot of people. Pretty sure something in Paladins has it, and I feel like an Overwatch character did too but I can't find it now.

Whether that's because they didn't or because most people just accept it without complaining about it, you can decide.

This thread is 90% 'Mag ranting about something he personally dislikes enough to feel that other people must dislike it too'. I've never had a serious discussion with anyone else who cared so I can't say how meaningful the effect is.

https://predecessor.fandom.com/wiki/Countess

Important part, her Ultimate is Forced Facing and CC too. I think there's at least two other 'forced facing' but I can't even remember because I have never seriously put much thought into this before now because it feels so normal to me.

This is what makes this discussion hard to even have properly. I can't find even any random old forum posts complaining about this in other games.

@Mag7spy can you help us out with that? Just a thread on Reddit or whatever for literally any game that implements this (maybe you can find a SMITE one?) with some other people who have the same opinion as you do?

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Closest is smite and it is very annoying

Which chars do that? I wanna try looking at how it works. Cause I have an imagine in my mind how I'd prefer it to work or how I could see it working (w/o it being annoying for me), but I'm interested in a pre-established application.

Athena has a taunt, and so does Serqet, but both skills are skill based with limited ranges (especially serqet).

Mag7spy

I can see a problem wit this idea, and I'm not the only one just generally wouldn't would not think something like this would be included.

@NiKr remember with these types of games (or if it is a ultimate the causes it) it is balanced around 5 people and they have limited ranges and are skill shots. If you included something like a mmorpg level taunt with the range and it was a auto effect and not a skill shot it be one of the most annoying thing in any of these games.

Mag7spy

@NiKr @Azherae Why are you talking about a stun skill, this is not a taunt...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlDc2ppcOi8

Stun and direction doesn't matter as much what we are talking about is a taunt and not being able to have control of camera during the duration.

GrilledCheeseMojito

Mag7spy wrote: »

I can see a problem wit this idea, and I'm not the only one just generally wouldn't would not think something like this would be included.

@NiKr remember with these types of games (or if it is a ultimate the causes it) it is balanced around 5 people and they have limited ranges and are skill shots. If you included something like a mmorpg level taunt with the range and it was a auto effect and not a skill shot it be one of the most annoying thing in any of these games.

If you have a long enough cooldown and there's some form of CC protection in the game, then there's no issue because you can play around it. Either by building anti CC items, or by attacking when the taunt is down and the character cannot otherwise force you to shift your focus.

Mag7spy

GrilledCheeseMojito wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

I can see a problem wit this idea, and I'm not the only one just generally wouldn't would not think something like this would be included.

@NiKr remember with these types of games (or if it is a ultimate the causes it) it is balanced around 5 people and they have limited ranges and are skill shots. If you included something like a mmorpg level taunt with the range and it was a auto effect and not a skill shot it be one of the most annoying thing in any of these games.

If you have a long enough cooldown and there's some form of CC protection in the game, then there's no issue because you can play around it. Either by building anti CC items, or by attacking when the taunt is down and the character cannot otherwise force you to shift your focus.

The issue is constant forced camera control and chunkiness, I'm not talking about general cc prevention.

Keyword for the discussion is "forced camera control + lingering camera control"

Azherae

Mag7spy wrote: »

GrilledCheeseMojito wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

I can see a problem wit this idea, and I'm not the only one just generally wouldn't would not think something like this would be included.

@NiKr remember with these types of games (or if it is a ultimate the causes it) it is balanced around 5 people and they have limited ranges and are skill shots. If you included something like a mmorpg level taunt with the range and it was a auto effect and not a skill shot it be one of the most annoying thing in any of these games.

If you have a long enough cooldown and there's some form of CC protection in the game, then there's no issue because you can play around it. Either by building anti CC items, or by attacking when the taunt is down and the character cannot otherwise force you to shift your focus.

The issue is constant forced camera control and chunkiness, I'm not talking about general cc prevention.

If it's not constant it's fine.

JustVine

Mag7spy wrote: »

@NiKr @Azherae Why are you talking about a stun skill, this is not a taunt... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlDc2ppcOi8

Stun and direction doesn't matter as much what we are talking about is a taunt and not being able to have control of camera during the duration.

Yeah.... For someone that complains that others don't read or can't understand what you are saying so much, you certainly seem to struggle yourself here, and make a ton of assumptions on top of it. Unfortunately for you this means that your constant 'you don't read what I write!' tirades make you seem not very credible and your 'counter-arguments' even more ignorable.

So once again from the top.... "Leap to a nearby enemy hero, forcing them to face Countess and Suppress them for .75 seconds. After the duration, Countess deals magical damage (+10% of the target's maximum health) to the target and heals herself for 50% of the damage dealt."

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

Why are you talking about a stun skill, this is not a taunt..

That video is cool and all, but I'm trying to see the effect from the pov of the victim

Mag7spy

JustVine wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

@NiKr @Azherae Why are you talking about a stun skill, this is not a taunt... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlDc2ppcOi8

Stun and direction doesn't matter as much what we are talking about is a taunt and not being able to have control of camera during the duration.

Yeah.... For someone that complains that others don't read or can't understand what you are saying so much, you certainly seem to struggle yourself here, and make a ton of assumptions on top of it. Unfortunately for you this means that your constant 'you don't read what I write!' tirades make you seem not very credible and your 'counter-arguments' even more ignorable.

So once again from the top.... "Leap to a nearby enemy hero, forcing them to face Countess and Suppress them for .75 seconds. After the duration, Countess deals magical damage (+10% of the target's maximum health) to the target and heals herself for 50% of the damage dealt."

Jumping into the conversation that moves from insults and you trying to move it back to insults? Actually golden award for you.

Did you really not watch the video I linked, did you also not read what I wrote? If you are going to jump into the conversation with reading insults please read the post you are quoting on it, kind of embarrassing.

The move is a CC that makes your character face the character. Being hard CC (stun) is not a taunt (cc).

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Why are you talking about a stun skill, this is not a taunt..

That video is cool and all, but I'm trying to see the effect from the pov of the victim

Actually yeah that might be easier @Mag7spy, can you find a SMITE video from the perspective of someone being taunted/Forced Targeted for NiKr?

I don't wanna get caught up in the specifics of Countess' forced target so let's just use the one you know. Nothing worse than arguing with someone about experiences they don't even have.

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