Aggro/Threat mechanics don't work in PvX

This is "one way" an action camera can work.

Even in tab target games, this is "one way" the camera works. In fact, it is the way the camera works most of the time in a tab target game. However, it is not the only way it works. In many games, holding the right mouse button down de-syncronizes character and camera movement, with character movement being left with wasd, and camera movement being controlled with the mouse.

Again, being able to move your character in a straight line while looking in many different directions is a key player skill for MMORPOG's. There is no reason this player skill can not be present when a player in is action camera mode.

Sure, your attacks would still go in the direction your camera is facing, but that is the point. If you are taunted, you can only attack the character that taunts you for the duration, hence your camera pointing at them. That is literally the desired function here - however you can still run in what ever direction you want.

No it isn't, that is never how it works in action camera in mmorpgs, that is how it works in tab mmorpgs....

Left click and right click are both used for combat in action camera mmorpgs. You generally would hold control or such to move your camera around without being clocked on your character. (you can re-keybind but than you are losing one of your attacks, which is not a normal rebind).

Using the button that shifts your camera in a third person action camera to look around is extremely clunky. If you have played these other games you would be well aware of that. You are actually creating a 3 camera issue again for no reason there are better ways to approach this. (taunt camera, player camera, temp player adjusted camera)

So this is extreme tab mind set, are you are effectively making it worse than i thought if you are suggesting for the duration you can only attack towards the direction of the tank. This sounds fully like you are removing action camera and forcing tab playstyle on it. I'm unsure what this duration is going be be im assuming 2-3 seconds effect which brings a bunch of issues.

1. Extreme clunky feeling added to a game for 0 reason instead of taking a more well thought out approach.
2. again cameras flipping issues with the more degrees you need to turn the faster the camera will move creating a random disorienting effect out of gameplay.
3. Tanks able to use taunts from distances having a strong cc, that CC you in terms of taking your mobility away as you are force turned around. Then requiring plays to press clunky key binds to adjust their camera and see where they are going and have clunky movement do to the controls of temp player camera.

In most MMO PvP, the meta right now is to go for the healers first. If you don't kill the healers, they will just keep whoever you do go after alive - iobviously.

Players don't really have an option, in most games that is what you need to do to win.

All this suggestion does is shift that to needing to go to the tanks first - which realistically is where it should be.

Now, there are obviously more tricks to it than just alwaysgoing after the tank - you may want to find a way to get a burst DPS class through to take out a healer or two, or perhaps a top performing DPS or a support. The key point there though, is that you can't just go strqaight after those more vulnerable classes, because the tank is essentially excercising zone of control between you and them.

I get you are from Pve and this is a very PvE mind set in making things uni form and the same as PvE but this shouldn't really be the case. It should be the job of the teams to protect their backline, yes everyone needs tools to do their task but that doesn't mean one needs to be killed before you kill the other. This goes for both healers having broken healing so you can't kill tanks, or in your case trying to make them game annoying you you can't do anything but attack tanks.

To focus on "kill tank first" that shouldn't be a thing their control on the battlefield should be fun in a fun aspect with zone control. Taunt isn't really zone control all it is is a cc everyone has something like that, you are just implementing the worse version of a cc that creates clunky gameplay (though if it is a aoe taunt that would be zone control and very annoying). If we look at other games you can view tanks having large slows, creating walls to block people off and sight, of course the norm is a high amount of cc, being able to front line and start the fight off their their dmg reduction so the fights part off in a positive way for the dps and other places so they don't get blown up, etc. They also showed a skill that makes the dmg taken from other be transferred to you in a % another great tank and zone control skill. Idea that tanks need to force people to attack them through hard camera control is kind of absurd, idea that they aren't making a big impact just because people go for healers first isn't true. If you want them to have more impact that can be down without using camera control as a means to do so.

Yeah, and if you and your group or raid go after them first, you are all essentially immune to their taunts.

You are going to be taunted all around you, doesn't matter who you are going after your camera is going to be flipped around through the fight by the random taunts on you from all direction when you are off protection. It is a aids mechanic and you aren't going to be immune, you have just said earlier the effect lingers on you and you have to attack them duration the effect you won't be immune to anything. This is a bad idea, you are physically trying to force something that makes the overall experience much worse.

Yeah they would be immune.

Again, if you are targeting a character with tank primary, you shouldn't be able to be taunted off of them. The idea of taunts here is to encourage players to go after tanks first, so if you are going after a tank you shouldn't be able to be taunted off. Any other effects on a taunt ability should take hold, just not the actual taunt component.

This being possible is counter to the entire point.

I'm not saying you are taunted right away or during the effect....I'm saying at then end of the effect when the protection is gone be it 5-10 seconds or less potentially. Another tank will be able to use taunt on you and flipping your camera around.

I can think of so many better ways to implement these things that be more interesting lol. At the end of the day i hope they go without taunt and just use aggro while having great zone control effects for pvp and pve. Taunt is boring.
@Noaani

@NiKr How many more pages do i need to write now, legit making me feel like I'm writing for 4 people x.x.

Wait you play games in 'Attack In Camera Direction' mode in Action MMOs?

That explains so much.

Change the setting to 'Attack In Character Facing Mode' to solve the problem, Mag.

EDIT: Nvm, I knew BDO kinda didn't have this setting but turns out that New World doesn't have it either so I'll just assume most games Mag plays don't have it.

Mag7 for your data, a lot of other games have 'attack in direction character is facing' as a setting you can use and players of those games build up a specific skill related to spatial awareness where they can fluidly adjust the camera to keep it on their target while moving in the direction they want in a gradient.

For an example, see recent Monster Hunter games, where the character attacks in their facing direction and the player controls the Camera separately.

Mag7spy wrote: »

NiKr How many more pages do i need to write now, legit making me feel like I'm writing for 4 people x.x.

That's a question for Noaani, not me. I'm done with this convo

I want taunts in Ashes because I'm gonna be a tank. You don't want them because they feel clunky/oldschool/bad/etc to you. I see no way for us to come to an understanding on this point.

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

NiKr How many more pages do i need to write now, legit making me feel like I'm writing for 4 people x.x.

That's a question for Noaani, not me. I'm done with this convo I want taunts in Ashes because I'm gonna be a tank. You don't want them because they feel clunky/oldschool/bad/etc to you. I see no way for us to come to an understanding on this point.

I, too, don't know why you're still writing, Mag. It's not that people don't understand your points, it's that no one here agrees with them. It wouldn't matter how much more you typed if no one in the conversation agrees.

But we're definitely not 'misunderstanding' you.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

I'm not saying you are taunted right away or during the effect....I'm saying at then end of the effect when the protection is gone be it 5-10 seconds or less potentially. Another tank will be able to use taunt on you and flipping your camera around.

As I have said in each of my last three posts, and you have quoted, if you are targeting a character with tank primary, you shouldnt be able to he taunted off of them. The idea of this is to encourage players to go after tanks first in PvP, and so if that is what you are doing, there is no need for you to be able to be taunted off.

Thus, in effect, if you are attacking a tank, you are immune to taunts from everyone.

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

NiKr How many more pages do i need to write now, legit making me feel like I'm writing for 4 people x.x.

That's a question for Noaani, not me. I'm done with this convo I want taunts in Ashes because I'm gonna be a tank. You don't want them because they feel clunky/oldschool/bad/etc to you. I see no way for us to come to an understanding on this point.

I don't think we will because you want to impact it is on and only one way and aren't open to ways that don't impact the mechanics of the gameplay negatively. You got like 100 other ways to go about it but you want the one way that is not common place in games for clear reasons. Which you said tab could be a solution which shows it isn't a good idea to begin with.

So ill stick to my points and i guess we leave it at that.

Azherae wrote: »

Wait you play games in 'Attack In Camera Direction' mode in Action MMOs?

That explains so much.

Change the setting to 'Attack In Character Facing Mode' to solve the problem, Mag.

EDIT: Nvm, I knew BDO kinda didn't have this setting but turns out that New World doesn't have it either so I'll just assume most games Mag plays don't have it.

Mag7 for your data, a lot of other games have 'attack in direction character is facing' as a setting you can use and players of those games build up a specific skill related to spatial awareness where they can fluidly adjust the camera to keep it on their target while moving in the direction they want in a gradient.

For an example, see recent Monster Hunter games, where the character attacks in their facing direction and the player controls the Camera separately.

You always attack in facing direction that is not what I'm talking about though. If you were to hold ctrl and attack you would be attacking int he facing direction of your attack. This is not what I'm talking about at all. Im saying when you have something effecting your camera not in your control at random points it will feel clunky or while you are holding ctrl to swap your camera it will feel clunky. Mmorpgs have this, pubg has this, other survival games or 3rd person has this.

I think Azherae was talking about 8-directional-based combat design. Instead of just "you always attack forward", you can hit in any of the 8 directions (the combos of wasd that is) while your camera is directed onto one point. Genshin works this way (an action combat game), Star Rail works this way (action combat in the overworld) and multiple other action combat games have this. And I'm assuming some games even have this as an option, as Azherae said.

Oh, and this doesn't require any button presses or anything, you just gotta have enough skill to adjust to the changes of your surroundings on the fly. But I'm sure you'll still consider it clunky.

NiKr wrote: »

I think Azherae was talking about 8-directional-based combat design. Instead of just "you always attack forward", you can hit in any of the 8 directions (the combos of wasd that is) while your camera is directed onto one point. Genshin works this way (an action combat game), Star Rail works this way (action combat in the overworld) and multiple other action combat games have this. And I'm assuming some games even have this as an option, as Azherae said.

Oh, and this doesn't require any button presses or anything, you just gotta have enough skill to adjust to the changes of your surroundings on the fly. But I'm sure you'll still consider it clunky.

This is literarily not what I'm talking about lol. I play a lot of types of games and know how different cameras work. I even explained this with pictures and referenced other games.

Play Pubg and adjust the camera and with the alt button and try to move with WASD. Pubg is free so it wont cost you money.

I'm starting to chalk this up to stubbornness and trying to understand what I'm talking about with cameras, do to the few of you wanting one way and refusing to see anything else which to me is wild.

Again Player camera, tempt player camera (the one you can adjust to look around), Player camera control by enemy.

You direction you move in is based on player camera, if enemy controls the camera it affects the direction you move in, so if camera down a 180 flip you will move forward instead of backwards based on your original desired direction. Temp player camera does not control the direction of where you attack or what direction you move. Your attacks will be linked to camera so the direction the player cameras is facing or how the enemy is controlling is. Hence move meant will feel clunky since you are not in around and your camera is being forced to face in certain directions reducing your effective moment and the point of using action camera.

This is not a good feature, I don't think you understand how much you are actually ruining the experience of a player. But if you plan to be in tab most the time, and have mostly played tab games this is where i'm saying the bias comes into play not understanding how it will feel. Azherae playing a lot says she is fine with clunky games so i can't say anything to that. But you think the normal player is going to be fine, again people hate losing control, this is the worse way to lose control.

Mag7spy wrote: »

This is not a good feature, I don't think you understand how much you are actually ruining the experience of a player. But if you plan to be in tab most the time, and have mostly played tab games this is where i'm saying the bias comes into play not understanding how it will feel. Azherae playing a lot says she is fine with clunky games so i can't say anything to that. But you think the normal player is going to be fine, again people hate losing control, this is the worse way to lose control.

Ok I think there might be something akin to progress here.

In some games I play, the direction of the character's movement is entirely separate from the camera facing except when aiming reticle based shots (which pause the character and snap their facing to the camera facing).

I always move the camera to face whatever I want to attack anyway, and then when I want to make an attack at the camera position I press... W and the attack button. Or I tap W and press the attack button. Or if it is reticle based and 'snaps to facing' then I just press the attack.

I entirely agree that if I am moving let's say 'diagonal backward strafe' away from a Ranger with my camera on that Ranger, and I then get taunted by a Tank directly on the other side of me from that Ranger, and my camera spins, I will, for about 12 frames minimum, end up moving diagonally away from the tank and therefore slightly closer to the Ranger. My camera view will now be on the Tank. I probably still know where the ranger is and I switch to pressing diagonal forward for some Diagonal Progression toward the Tank to maintain my direction.

I can no longer attack the Ranger with my reticle-targeted ranged abilities unless I reorient myself. I must now move the camera 180 while blending the movement of my character to counter the camera movement. I consider this still having control of my character, but definitely not my camera (since I'm just resetting a change anyway, I am reasserting control relative to my goal).

From what I understand, the part you have the problem with is the 12 frames, not the 'blending of camera movement with direction changes to retain the direction you are moving while doing the 180 camera turn'.

Is that right?

Mag7spy wrote: »

But if you plan to be in tab most the time, and have mostly played tab games this is where i'm saying the bias comes into play not understanding how it will feel.

I've mainly played Genshin for the past 3 years. It's an action combat game with 8-directional combat. And it moves my camera when I come close to a place of interest (usually a quest spot) or if some event has just occurred and the game wants me to pay attention to it right away.

And I'm completely fine with this mechanic. And would like if tank taunts did the same in Ashes

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae playing a lot says she is fine with clunky games so i can't say anything to that. But you think the normal player is going to be fine, again people hate losing control, this is the worse way to lose control.

What I think is that Ashes will utterly fail to attract any kind of "normal" player. At this point in time I truly believe that. I've watched several doomer videos about the state of mmos (and gaming in general) and I saw quite a few people thinking that Ashes will somehow save the genre. I'm 95% sure it will not only fail at doing that, but will also get shit on by the majority of current gamers.

And I'm saying this even in the context of Intrepid somehow pulling off the best possible combat in the entire genre (which I'm 70% sure they won't be able to do). Just today Asmon did a reaction to LA's current state and said "people put up with the shitty design of the game due to its cool combat" (which afaik also applies to BDO). But even that "putting up" is kinda dwindling, cause over 90% of players have left the game. I'm almost sure that Ashes will be in the same spot, even if they somehow manage to counter any and all bots.

So with all that being said, I really don't think that forced camera movement will somehow be the biggest reason for people to leave the game. I'm sure there'd be at least a few people that do, but nowhere near majority.

Mag7spy wrote: »

the few of you wanting one way and refusing to see anything else which to me is wild

I personally don't want to be a glorified bard when I play a tank. And I expect bards to be the main CC-having archetype. Tank's goal is to prevent his party from taking damage. That comes in the way of defensive actions (usually that's buffs, but I've been a loud proponent of action-based directional blocks of incoming dmg) and redirection of damage. In pve redirection comes from aggroing mobs, which in turn leads to tanks having multiple abilities with aggroing effects and a direct taunt whose whole purpose is to interact with the mob's vector of attacks.

And I'd prefer if that taunt wasn't just a pve tool, because I want to use everything I have in pvp as well. I wanna cast a taunt on a player and go "look at me, I am your target now"

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

This is not a good feature, I don't think you understand how much you are actually ruining the experience of a player. But if you plan to be in tab most the time, and have mostly played tab games this is where i'm saying the bias comes into play not understanding how it will feel. Azherae playing a lot says she is fine with clunky games so i can't say anything to that. But you think the normal player is going to be fine, again people hate losing control, this is the worse way to lose control.

Ok I think there might be something akin to progress here.

In some games I play, the direction of the character's movement is entirely separate from the camera facing except when aiming reticle based shots (which pause the character and snap their facing to the camera facing).

I always move the camera to face whatever I want to attack anyway, and then when I want to make an attack at the camera position I press... W and the attack button. Or I tap W and press the attack button. Or if it is reticle based and 'snaps to facing' then I just press the attack.

I entirely agree that if I am moving let's say 'diagonal backward strafe' away from a Ranger with my camera on that Ranger, and I then get taunted by a Tank directly on the other side of me from that Ranger, and my camera spins, I will, for about 12 frames minimum, end up moving diagonally away from the tank and therefore slightly closer to the Ranger. My camera view will now be on the Tank. I probably still know where the ranger is and I switch to pressing diagonal forward for some Diagonal Progression toward the Tank to maintain my direction.

I can no longer attack the Ranger with my reticle-targeted ranged abilities unless I reorient myself. I must now move the camera 180 while blending the movement of my character to counter the camera movement. I consider this still having control of my character, but definitely not my camera (since I'm just resetting a change anyway, I am reasserting control relative to my goal).

From what I understand, the part you have the problem with is the 12 frames, not the 'blending of camera movement with direction changes to retain the direction you are moving while doing the 180 camera turn'.

Is that right?

Party, we need to consider the time it takes for the camera to turn during that turn arch your character will be moving "feeling akin to being drunk" and at the end of the turn from the taunt you would be moving full in a backwards position of intention from before (aka if you were moving back now you are moving forward).

You have control of your attack and your movement it is the lack of camera control that affects your overall gameplay experience.

With what you guys have suggested having to have your camera on the tank, you won't be able to look away or focus is pulled back to it every few seconds for a duration. If you use Temp player camera the movement will feel clunky akin to pubg since it isn't your true camera, as your actual camera is forced to face the tank. You are simply using your key to look around since your actual camera is forced to look at the tank for the duration and attack the direction only what taunts you.

Pubg is free will take like 10 min to download. If you use the Alt button and move with your WASD you will see what I'm talking about for that with movement.

Azherae wrote: »

Is that right?

Btw, does Predecessor have fear-type effects? Cause I'd be interested in seeing how they work there, if they do. @Mag7spy same question for smite as well, cause I forgot to ask this when we were talking about those 2 games.

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

This is not a good feature, I don't think you understand how much you are actually ruining the experience of a player. But if you plan to be in tab most the time, and have mostly played tab games this is where i'm saying the bias comes into play not understanding how it will feel. Azherae playing a lot says she is fine with clunky games so i can't say anything to that. But you think the normal player is going to be fine, again people hate losing control, this is the worse way to lose control.

Ok I think there might be something akin to progress here.

In some games I play, the direction of the character's movement is entirely separate from the camera facing except when aiming reticle based shots (which pause the character and snap their facing to the camera facing).

I always move the camera to face whatever I want to attack anyway, and then when I want to make an attack at the camera position I press... W and the attack button. Or I tap W and press the attack button. Or if it is reticle based and 'snaps to facing' then I just press the attack.

I entirely agree that if I am moving let's say 'diagonal backward strafe' away from a Ranger with my camera on that Ranger, and I then get taunted by a Tank directly on the other side of me from that Ranger, and my camera spins, I will, for about 12 frames minimum, end up moving diagonally away from the tank and therefore slightly closer to the Ranger. My camera view will now be on the Tank. I probably still know where the ranger is and I switch to pressing diagonal forward for some Diagonal Progression toward the Tank to maintain my direction.

I can no longer attack the Ranger with my reticle-targeted ranged abilities unless I reorient myself. I must now move the camera 180 while blending the movement of my character to counter the camera movement. I consider this still having control of my character, but definitely not my camera (since I'm just resetting a change anyway, I am reasserting control relative to my goal).

From what I understand, the part you have the problem with is the 12 frames, not the 'blending of camera movement with direction changes to retain the direction you are moving while doing the 180 camera turn'.

Is that right?

Party, we need to consider the time it takes for the camera to turn during that turn arch your character will be moving "feeling akin to being drunk" and at the end of the turn from the taunt you would be moving full in a backwards position of intention from before (aka if you were moving back now you are moving forward).

You have control of your attack and your movement it is the lack of camera control that affects your overall gameplay experience.

With what you guys have suggested having to have your camera on the tank, you won't be able to look away or focus is pulled back to it every few seconds for a duration. If you use Temp player camera the movement will feel clunky akin to pubg since it isn't your true camera, as your actual camera is forced to face the tank. You are simply using your key to look around since your actual camera is forced to look at the tank for the duration and attack the direction only what taunts you.

Pubg is free will take like 10 min to download. If you use the Alt button and move with your WASD you will see what I'm talking about for that with movement.

I am not talking about temp player camera, why are you bringing it up?

I don't see what temp player camera has to do with this conversation.

Is this because you are talking about 'Playing Ashes primarily in Action Reticle mode' and don't want this effect because it would be troublesome then? I don't think it's unreasonable to have effects that one counters by 'entering Tab Target mode' in a hybrid game.

Azherae wrote: »

Is this because you are talking about 'Playing Ashes primarily in Action Reticle mode' and don't want this effect because it would be troublesome then? I don't think it's unreasonable to have effects that one counters by 'entering Tab Target mode' in a hybrid game.

I've brought that up before. Mag disagrees with this position.

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Is that right?

Btw, does Predecessor have fear-type effects? Cause I'd be interested in seeing how they work there, if they do. @Mag7spy same question for smite as well, cause I forgot to ask this when we were talking about those 2 games.

None that I'm aware of, but remember that Knockback can replace it for faster paced games. So as example, playing Sevarog, I would consider 'induce fear and cause your opponent to run under your tower' to be similar to what I do now, huge knockup-knockback to put them there personally by my own positioning.

I can see the distinction though.

Predecessor normally does that by forcing it another way, their newest character is one you'd like.

Greystone's Ultimate heals him and makes him immune and invincible but unable to attack for a bit, but then does AoE damage around him. The almost universal best response is to run away from him as fast as possible before the AoE goes off. You can't hurt him, and most builds certainly do 'fear' getting caught in that AoE unnecessarily.

But a ranged character outside of the range of it wouldn't move, so there's that nuance. Etc.

I do not expect that this effect would make it into the game because it doesn't generally have CC that lasts longer than usually 80 frames maximum (Sevarog's Colossal Blow previously mentioned, Countess' ult previously discussed) and 80f of 'runs away from target' isn't that meaningful in higher mobility games unless the effect can force the character to use movement skills too.

It might be cool as a "This thing makes you run away from them and also gives you a movespeed buff while doing it'.

SMITE may have some.

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

This is not a good feature, I don't think you understand how much you are actually ruining the experience of a player. But if you plan to be in tab most the time, and have mostly played tab games this is where i'm saying the bias comes into play not understanding how it will feel. Azherae playing a lot says she is fine with clunky games so i can't say anything to that. But you think the normal player is going to be fine, again people hate losing control, this is the worse way to lose control.

Ok I think there might be something akin to progress here.

In some games I play, the direction of the character's movement is entirely separate from the camera facing except when aiming reticle based shots (which pause the character and snap their facing to the camera facing).

I always move the camera to face whatever I want to attack anyway, and then when I want to make an attack at the camera position I press... W and the attack button. Or I tap W and press the attack button. Or if it is reticle based and 'snaps to facing' then I just press the attack.

I entirely agree that if I am moving let's say 'diagonal backward strafe' away from a Ranger with my camera on that Ranger, and I then get taunted by a Tank directly on the other side of me from that Ranger, and my camera spins, I will, for about 12 frames minimum, end up moving diagonally away from the tank and therefore slightly closer to the Ranger. My camera view will now be on the Tank. I probably still know where the ranger is and I switch to pressing diagonal forward for some Diagonal Progression toward the Tank to maintain my direction.

I can no longer attack the Ranger with my reticle-targeted ranged abilities unless I reorient myself. I must now move the camera 180 while blending the movement of my character to counter the camera movement. I consider this still having control of my character, but definitely not my camera (since I'm just resetting a change anyway, I am reasserting control relative to my goal).

From what I understand, the part you have the problem with is the 12 frames, not the 'blending of camera movement with direction changes to retain the direction you are moving while doing the 180 camera turn'.

Is that right?

Party, we need to consider the time it takes for the camera to turn during that turn arch your character will be moving "feeling akin to being drunk" and at the end of the turn from the taunt you would be moving full in a backwards position of intention from before (aka if you were moving back now you are moving forward).

You have control of your attack and your movement it is the lack of camera control that affects your overall gameplay experience.

With what you guys have suggested having to have your camera on the tank, you won't be able to look away or focus is pulled back to it every few seconds for a duration. If you use Temp player camera the movement will feel clunky akin to pubg since it isn't your true camera, as your actual camera is forced to face the tank. You are simply using your key to look around since your actual camera is forced to look at the tank for the duration and attack the direction only what taunts you.

Pubg is free will take like 10 min to download. If you use the Alt button and move with your WASD you will see what I'm talking about for that with movement.

I am not talking about temp player camera, why are you bringing it up?

I don't see what temp player camera has to do with this conversation.

Is this because you are talking about 'Playing Ashes primarily in Action Reticle mode' and don't want this effect because it would be troublesome then? I don't think it's unreasonable to have effects that one counters by 'entering Tab Target mode' in a hybrid game.

If there is no tempt player camera than you are looking in one direction towards the tank and can not change it. So there is no redirecting.

And yes hard disagree if something is designed to be bad and force you in tab that isn't a solution. We can also go the other way where it forces you out of tab into action view.

Designing skills to ruin the experience in certain modes should not be a thing.

Azherae wrote: »

Greystone's Ultimate heals him and makes him immune and invincible but unable to attack for a bit, but then does AoE damage around him. The almost universal best response is to run away from him as fast as possible before the AoE goes off. You can't hurt him, and most builds certainly do 'fear' getting caught in that AoE unnecessarily.

I feel like this is the kind of stuff that Mag wants for tanks (but in reverse of course). Smth that doesn't directly influence the player, but kinda "makes" them take an action that the attacker wants.

Mag7spy wrote: »

Designing skills to ruin the experience in certain modes should not be a thing.

But I feel like they'll inevitably exist, due to the hybrid nature of the system. If only one mode is more optimal to use - those who prefer the other mode will complain that the game is unfair to them. So the only fair thing would be to design the system in a way where people have to use both modes throughout their gameplay.