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After 6 Years you finally made me post (freeholds/etc... feedback).
Slyfers
Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I was debating whether I should make this post because I was hoping to wait for Alpha Two so I can give feedback on design flaws or exploits during the testing period. However, with the new update to the freeholds system and the drama surrounding it. I think this topic cannot wait.
To begin, I do not think that many people can see the problems that will follow when a bad design is implemented and the long-lasting impact it will have on a game. Past games also believed that their players would socialize and work together but every single time it has been proven wrong because developers just don’t understand human nature.
With that said.
For those of you who don’t want to read any further the current update to the freehold system in my own opinion is a complete failure and when you are asking people to pay $15 a month for a game where the most sought-after endgame artisan skills (farming/animal husbandry) are tie to limited amount of players in a fantasy MMORPG, it is the most insane thing I have ever heard.
Let’s start off with “freeholds are a privilege not a right” which in my opinion are a poor choice of wording. The words should only be used in legal status and not in video game development.
We already have things that are considered privileges such as castles, flying mounts, and legendary items. If you really wanted to add privileges to freeholds, then it should be done through the blueprint system. The blueprints should be a 1% drop rate and also be acquired through endgame raid bosses for the higher-end stations. You simply can’t keep putting exclusivity on everything in the game.
You also can’t keep saying the game is not for everyone because eventually the game will be for no one. With this redesign you have ensured that there will be a massive player drop off and guarantee that there will be no player growth after the first few months, new players will learn the importance of limited freeholds and simply choose not to play. Those who are currently playing that lose their freeholds will just quit. They will not try to win them back, which am assuming you think players would do.
Let’s look at ArcheAge housing system for a moment. If people couldn’t get land to place anything above an 8x8 farm or if they lost their land during server mergers, they would just quit the game. The main problem with ArcheAge housing is that they had different size plots for different types of housing/farms, and they allowed the players to place it anywhere in the area that allowed housing which led to players placing their houses and farms to take up as much space as they can.
During 2017-2020 most people assume that maybe 80% of a server population would be able to get a freehold and the other 20% would have in-node housing and join a family to gain access to the freehold system. Then people assumed that everyone could get a freehold, but you might not get it in the spot that you wanted. Also, you had a grace period to save your freehold or that it wouldn’t be hard to get a new spot for your freehold.
If you think that having large number of freeholds which are right next to each other, breaks game immersion then that ship sailed long ago with the teddy bear mount and other cosmetics. If the problem is really that you don’t want to have those player towns, then I suggest you look at some fortified villages that were built to protect them from raiders and design the free hold plots to fit into the world.
My thoughts on current changes to the freeholds
Why was the size increased? I see a lot of wasted space in the game with large distances between locations on the freehold. If you already playing to make guild freeholds than make them the 1.5 or 2 acres Why did you make freeholds extremely limited when you know from other games that this is a determining factor if people play your game? Why are you making it more focused on the family system when there are other systems that can fit that need? I think you assume too much on how people will act in gaming and ignore basic human nature. In my opinion, the new freehold system will kill off the player base. Just like all of the other games that have similar player housing designs. At least ArcheAge gave you an 8x8 to start off with. Then the game devs went back to help solve this issue by creating two whole new zones just for player housing and an 8x8 tower house.
I would like to remind Intrepid studios about some of their comments on other games.
You did not like the fact that in other games had game mechanics that would destroy a player’s personal progression.
But you are ok with it now.
You did not like the fact that in New World that guilds(company) who own territory got the gold when players used the crafting stations in that town.
But you are ok with it now.
I do not think that these changes to the freehold system should have been made without a Lead Game Designer.
My Feedback on freeholds
1. Decrease the size back down to .5 acres.
2. Remove the bidding system.
3. Remove the parcel system.
4. Put designated plots in the world where players can buy them with gold.
5. Allow 3 or 4 stations beside the house.
6. Make the area where players buy freeholds look like fortified villages in real life, if immersion is that important.
7. Remove Inn and apartment housing (they are not real player housing anyway if you can’t craft).
8. Remove in-node housing and replace it with in-node freeholds (these should be the privilege and limited freeholds).
9. Make the blueprints for the higher tier crafting stations hard to get such as 1% drop rates and raid bosses.
Other Feedback
Hire a psychology consultant like other video game studios, to get a better understanding of how people will socialize with your game designs to see if they would work or not. Also, let’s do some quick math about the income that Ashes will need to generate to keep afloat. Ashes of Creation would need 1 million players for the first 3 months, which would equate to 45,000,000.00 to break even on the development of the game and only if the cost hasn’t surpassed that number. I would have to say that after the first 6 months of release of Ashes and this is the freehold update that makes it to live, I would argue that there would be around 150,000 players left and by the 1-year mark I would say it will drop down between 25,000 -50,000 across both NA/EU which will then hinder the continuous development for Ashes of Creation. If the data from the other PvX games that are similar to Ashes of Creation are to go by then it shows us that the main reasons why the player base quits is due to the destruction of a player progression of the game and limited player housing. Why does anyone think that Ashes of Creation won’t face these same problems that other PvX games had is beyond me.
To begin, I do not think that many people can see the problems that will follow when a bad design is implemented and the long-lasting impact it will have on a game. Past games also believed that their players would socialize and work together but every single time it has been proven wrong because developers just don’t understand human nature.
With that said.
For those of you who don’t want to read any further the current update to the freehold system in my own opinion is a complete failure and when you are asking people to pay $15 a month for a game where the most sought-after endgame artisan skills (farming/animal husbandry) are tie to limited amount of players in a fantasy MMORPG, it is the most insane thing I have ever heard.
Let’s start off with “freeholds are a privilege not a right” which in my opinion are a poor choice of wording. The words should only be used in legal status and not in video game development.
We already have things that are considered privileges such as castles, flying mounts, and legendary items. If you really wanted to add privileges to freeholds, then it should be done through the blueprint system. The blueprints should be a 1% drop rate and also be acquired through endgame raid bosses for the higher-end stations. You simply can’t keep putting exclusivity on everything in the game.
You also can’t keep saying the game is not for everyone because eventually the game will be for no one. With this redesign you have ensured that there will be a massive player drop off and guarantee that there will be no player growth after the first few months, new players will learn the importance of limited freeholds and simply choose not to play. Those who are currently playing that lose their freeholds will just quit. They will not try to win them back, which am assuming you think players would do.
Let’s look at ArcheAge housing system for a moment. If people couldn’t get land to place anything above an 8x8 farm or if they lost their land during server mergers, they would just quit the game. The main problem with ArcheAge housing is that they had different size plots for different types of housing/farms, and they allowed the players to place it anywhere in the area that allowed housing which led to players placing their houses and farms to take up as much space as they can.
During 2017-2020 most people assume that maybe 80% of a server population would be able to get a freehold and the other 20% would have in-node housing and join a family to gain access to the freehold system. Then people assumed that everyone could get a freehold, but you might not get it in the spot that you wanted. Also, you had a grace period to save your freehold or that it wouldn’t be hard to get a new spot for your freehold.
If you think that having large number of freeholds which are right next to each other, breaks game immersion then that ship sailed long ago with the teddy bear mount and other cosmetics. If the problem is really that you don’t want to have those player towns, then I suggest you look at some fortified villages that were built to protect them from raiders and design the free hold plots to fit into the world.
My thoughts on current changes to the freeholds
Why was the size increased? I see a lot of wasted space in the game with large distances between locations on the freehold. If you already playing to make guild freeholds than make them the 1.5 or 2 acres Why did you make freeholds extremely limited when you know from other games that this is a determining factor if people play your game? Why are you making it more focused on the family system when there are other systems that can fit that need? I think you assume too much on how people will act in gaming and ignore basic human nature. In my opinion, the new freehold system will kill off the player base. Just like all of the other games that have similar player housing designs. At least ArcheAge gave you an 8x8 to start off with. Then the game devs went back to help solve this issue by creating two whole new zones just for player housing and an 8x8 tower house.
I would like to remind Intrepid studios about some of their comments on other games.
You did not like the fact that in other games had game mechanics that would destroy a player’s personal progression.
But you are ok with it now.
You did not like the fact that in New World that guilds(company) who own territory got the gold when players used the crafting stations in that town.
But you are ok with it now.
I do not think that these changes to the freehold system should have been made without a Lead Game Designer.
My Feedback on freeholds
1. Decrease the size back down to .5 acres.
2. Remove the bidding system.
3. Remove the parcel system.
4. Put designated plots in the world where players can buy them with gold.
5. Allow 3 or 4 stations beside the house.
6. Make the area where players buy freeholds look like fortified villages in real life, if immersion is that important.
7. Remove Inn and apartment housing (they are not real player housing anyway if you can’t craft).
8. Remove in-node housing and replace it with in-node freeholds (these should be the privilege and limited freeholds).
9. Make the blueprints for the higher tier crafting stations hard to get such as 1% drop rates and raid bosses.
Other Feedback
Hire a psychology consultant like other video game studios, to get a better understanding of how people will socialize with your game designs to see if they would work or not. Also, let’s do some quick math about the income that Ashes will need to generate to keep afloat. Ashes of Creation would need 1 million players for the first 3 months, which would equate to 45,000,000.00 to break even on the development of the game and only if the cost hasn’t surpassed that number. I would have to say that after the first 6 months of release of Ashes and this is the freehold update that makes it to live, I would argue that there would be around 150,000 players left and by the 1-year mark I would say it will drop down between 25,000 -50,000 across both NA/EU which will then hinder the continuous development for Ashes of Creation. If the data from the other PvX games that are similar to Ashes of Creation are to go by then it shows us that the main reasons why the player base quits is due to the destruction of a player progression of the game and limited player housing. Why does anyone think that Ashes of Creation won’t face these same problems that other PvX games had is beyond me.
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Comments
I believe much of the FH backlash is it seems with every amazing reveal, there's also a giant caveat: Not for the average player.
If all those filthy casuals are gone though... who do you think becomes the average player?
I'm not advocating for an equal or fair system. I have faith that Intrepid will have enough systems in place for the typical gamer to find $15/month of value.
Game is still a long way off. Have patience all.
I thought about the acres aswell why increase it too 1,5 if it was 0,5 ? just leave it like that and give double or triple the amount of Freeholds so some more Players can get one..
And cutting off Highest Crafting / Processing with a System that only a hand full off Players have too ? I dont know just feels wrong.
Thats like Giving the Most Powerful and Richest People (That were able to get a Freehold) even more Power.
IMHO the best point in topicstarter is the advise to hire psychologist
Where will your elite freeholds be once your server has to close for failing numbers?
This is getting tiring at this point, because nobody's actually asking for that, yet you people who defend the current vision of Freeholds constantly keep bringing up that point.
Nobody's asking for a guaranteed participation trophy, have you even read the post?
Why are you arguing that you should be able to play Ashes without even paying? What are you even talking about?
This is such an insightful comment.
The people who choose not to play because of reason A might not be the same who choose not to play for reason B or reason C. So you're not just losing one group of players who don't like A, B and C, but are losing all the players who don't like A, B or C.
Instead of having incentives to join an older server, every new player faces a huge catch up to the floating freehold market.
And new players have to catch, without having access to productivity of freeholds in the first place.
How much wealth will players generate through freeholds/caravans? Maybe 1/3 of their total wealth?
Seems hard to manage if you dont play hardcore.
You essentially have a money printer for players that reached level 50 first, the very hardcore players that have an easier time to generate money anyway.
Dont get me wrong, im not against hardcore players and accomplishments, as im a hardcore player myself, but i dont see it as healthy for the server population to stack the odds against players that reach level 50 later than other’s do.
And it's quite ironic, since it was also a problem in Archeage. They kept making new servers, fresh starts, because a new player joining an established server would have a miserable experience.
And it's quite funny because I played Archeage since alpha/closed-beta, and when the game went live, I played for a few months and quit. Then came back for a fresh start, because you simply can't continue playing on your old character on an old server (unless you want to just throw money at the game and use cash shop, but that's another issue).
I can easily see this being a problem in AoC as well (even though the game won't be p2w - COPIUM).
Oh and yet another area where I can point this out: They said they want to make the leveling experience matter, and they don't want it to just be a gateway to endgame, and they don't want only the endgame to matter.
Well, this will inevitably lead to people rushing to max level as fast as possible.
Anyone with half a brain knew this wasnt gonna be the case
5% in node housing
20% freehold
75% node apartments
Was what it was looking like it was gonna be and seem like after this update that looks correct node housing could come up though.
I also beleive 70% of players think they want freehold however they probaly realy dont when they relise what it means. large amount of investment needed to level it to be useful and one node war away from loosimng everything they are the high risk vs high reward for housing, In node housing is in the middle and appartments are low risk.
Also tbh i think a fairfew casual players will be able to get freehold due to nature of the game. probaly 75% of the player base will be close to the metropolis nodes and in the nodes around it so the node away from those population desintiy will have little compeition on the freehold spots there. Also less PvP
This being said there could be a way to accommodate those who want to do farming but cant get frreehold by having luxury appartment that have roomtop garden where there a small garden for some small scale farming similiar to Archage public farms
> Complains about game feature when being a solo player means they cannot access certain content
Yes, and there was a lot of assumptions and fake numbers thrown around to try to prop his doomer conclusion. I think FOMO is more at play then people want to admit. I also think his solutions are no good. My advice, find a guild that can compete. If you want to play the mmorpg like a single player game then prepare to be disappointed.
So, the answer is to be in one of maybe three mega-guilds on each server? It's mega-guild or nothing? That's your solution?
Sounds like a pretty boring server.
Since when have guild caps been in the thousands? Guilds can band together and cooperate to overthrow other guilds. Seems part of the game. It takes interacting and planning so I can see why people may be against that.
Since when have guilds been limited by guild sizes?
The wiki says 300 unless that has changed.
That hasn't changed.
However, {My Guild 1}, {My Guild 2}, {My Guild 3} etc has been a fact of MMO's for years now.
A guild as a system in game and a guild in terms of a player community are not the same thing.
On the other hand, what content is there for the casual player? Nodes are supposed to be the centre of the game or dynamics. At the moment nodes are useless. I couldn't care less about nodes. What benefits does a node give me compared to a free hold?
I cannot compare it to real life, but to be fair this feels like most playerbase will be the 99% looking how the 1% enjoys all the features of the game, and that 1% keeps telling the other 99% "if you work hard enough you can also get it!".
A game strongly based around nodes, you are saying you don't care about nodes lol?
I think you'll find that you have it backwards.
In a game that is supposed to be about nodes, the developers haven't given players a reason to care about nodes.
From what Steven has said and shown, the game is not based around nodes. It's based around exclusivity and guilds, not nodes.
Big..Fat... DITTO !!!
You clearly have not been following development
@Noaani stop trying to create a argument about nothing you know what the game is about.
I know Steven wants nodes to matter.
That is why I have said in many threads over the last few days that while they do not matter now, I expect that to change. It has to change, because Steven wants nodes to matter.
Stop telling me to stop creating an argument when you don't even know what the argument I am making is.