Why does no MMORPG ever implement the shield and spear weapon combination?

Seriously guys!
The only class to use a "spear" (more like a lance) and shield in an MMORPG, at least as far as i know, is the lancer from Tera...
It would be really cool, if tanks had the ability to specc into holding a spear in one hand and a shield in another, like a spartan hoplite.
They could give the spear slower attackspeed or something in return, but i really like the idea of forcing the enemy to keep his distance.

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Ventharien

Ravudha wrote: »

My guess: when designing fantasy people think Western medieval, and spears are way down the list of weapons that most people think of from that era. Maybe some Eastern MMOs include spears because they feature a bit more prominently in their military history (just a guess).

I suppose we do have an overemphasis on swords that they used. Actual medieval combat saw way more use of pikes, halberds, billhooks, and various maces. Swords were a sidearm.

Damokles

Dygz wrote: »

I thought swords v armor is more about chopping rather than slicing?

Swords in european medieval times evolved to puncture the chainlinks of chain armour. Swords were actually way better at thrusting most of the time then either chopping or slashing. (Except of course swords like the cutlass/scimitars or sabres)
Swords after all are designed to be larger daggers

(First proto swords were found to date to around 3300 bc in turkei, while knifes could be found to date to times even before that)

Of course you have to think about the location if you want to talk about the general use of a sword.
Scimitars like the Shamshir from persia/afrika were produced to inflict heavy and deep slashing wounds while being wielded by horse or camel riders, because people didnt normally wear heavy armour in the desert. The strong curvature also allowed people to stricke above or around shields ofcource.
Southeast asian swords are designed for hacking, because people also used them to hack through the thick jungle surrounding them.

Mesis

I mean spear+shield is cool but what about shield+shield?

Atama

Mesis wrote: »

I mean spear+shield is cool but what about shield+shield?

Mi don’t know if you’re aware but that topic has already been beaten to death on the boards, we even got an official declaration that we won’t have double shields in the game.

Damokles

Mesis wrote: »

I mean spear+shield is cool but what about shield+shield?

I vote for the one shield challenge
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Numilor

Birdie wrote: »

Because in most games, spears are two handed weapons. Spears can only be used while in formation to keep the enemy troops in a distance. Also strong against cavalry. However it's not useful in 1v1 combat. You can't win with a spear and a shield!
(That's the realistic point of view of course)

Ehm what? The spear was THE most used melee weapon, it's easy to use, has long range, cheap, does pretty well with armor, effective.

If you wanna talk about realism, it's by far one of the best weapons in melee.

If you wanna talk about cosmetics, then yes, a sword usually looks better than a spear, which is why they are not that popular in fantasy maybe.

the sword is massively over represented, it works well against unarmored people, but as soon as you slap armor on them, you can kiss your cutting capabilities goodbye for the most part, not saying anything against them in particular, swords look cool, but this bs, about how the spear is not good in 1v1 needs to be stopped.

Numilor

Damokles wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

I thought swords v armor is more about chopping rather than slicing?

Swords in european medieval times evolved to puncture the chainlinks of chain armour. Swords were actually way better at thrusting most of the time then either chopping or slashing. (Except of course swords like the cutlass/scimitars or sabres)
Swords after all are designed to be larger daggers
(First proto swords were found to date to around 3300 bc in turkei, while knifes could be found to date to times even before that)

Of course you have to think about the location if you want to talk about the general use of a sword.
Scimitars like the Shamshir from persia/afrika were produced to inflict heavy and deep slashing wounds while being wielded by horse or camel riders, because people didnt normally wear heavy armour in the desert. The strong curvature also allowed people to stricke above or around shields ofcource.
Southeast asian swords are designed for hacking, because people also used them to hack through the thick jungle surrounding them.

Yep, pretty much, cutting swords are good against bad armor or unarmored people, if you have a plate armor you need a weapon that has either blunt capabilities or that can pierce, you are pretty much never gonna pierce the full plate, so you need to aim for the joints, you could also use the back of the sword as a blunt instrument because it was more effective than cutting.

This is also one of the reason why a dagger was used against an enemy that was on the ground, since the dagger is smaller, it's much easier to maneuver, and to get into the joints of the armor.

In a game, ofc this shouldn't be the case, you shouldn't be punished for the weapon you choose, it should be mostly cosmetic, with some gameplay differences, but nothing too crazy, like if you use a sword against plate you can basically never win.

midgard

a sword is made for WAR .
a spear can be used for war but it was a hunting weapon first .
even the spartans carried a sword as a backup weapon just in case the phalanx broke formation or any situation where their spear was unusable.

swords are olso better if you are allone in a fight .
spears are better if you can go in a groep/platoon .

unknown

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Atama

Darksaber wrote: »

Because a spear is a two-handed weapon. If you want to wield "spear-and-shield" you would need a glaive/guisarme in one hand and a shield in the other hand.

Then it’s no wonder that no Hoplites are alive today. They went into battle not knowing that their way of fighting in battle was physically impossible. Silly Greeks!

Atama

midgard wrote: »

a sword is made for WAR .
a spear can be used for war but it was a hunting weapon first .
even the spartans carried a sword as a backup weapon just in case the phalanx broke formation or any situation where their spear was unusable.

swords are olso better if you are allone in a fight .
spears are better if you can go in a groep/platoon .

Swords are just the evolution of knives, which are hunting weapons and tools. Swords have also been used as tools; many swords (especially single-edged ones) double as machetes to get through brush. Honestly, a sword really is just a big knife/dagger.

A hunting spear is not the same spear you take into war, which is more likely to be a pike or similar pole arm designed exclusively for war. Pikes are even more of a war weapon since (as you say) they are of limited use outside of mass combat.

Spartans did have swords as a sidearm, true. It’s equivalent to a handgun carried by a modern soldier. But just as an assault rifle is a soldier’s primary weapon today, a spear was a soldier’s primary weapon in ancient times. The sword is what you fell back on, not what you intended to use.

So it’s more accurate to say that a spear was far more of a war weapon than a sword.

MoronicBeing

Birdie wrote: »

Because in most games, spears are two handed weapons. Spears can only be used while in formation to keep the enemy troops in a distance. Also strong against cavalry. However it's not useful in 1v1 combat. You can't win with a spear and a shield!
(That's the realistic point of view of course)

I know this is old but I gotta ask, this is a joke right? Over the last 5,000 years the vast majority of infantry in any conflict was fought with spears, this definitely includes one handed spears and shields. Swords and combatants that used them were outright rare in comparison actually. The Chinese, the Aztec, the Greek, the mesopotamian, the Japanese, the hun, the rusk, the Norse, the Ethiopian including the warrior king Memnon, and the native Americans have all throughout history used shields and spears together in combat. They did before swords existed and after swords existed and unlike swords, spears especially the short kind with long broad blades were easy to handle and far easier to kill with. A spear doesn't roll if you strike wrong like a sword does, spears always strike true and are far more dangerous especially in the hands of a farmer or shoe maker. Nobody had to study the spear to kill effectively. Formation be damned the spear is far more effective than any sword in single combat and formation.This comment is silly, you're silly.

Songcaller

Mortal online 2 has spear and shield.

Nerror

I would love to see spear and shield being more common. A pointy stick is in many ways superior to other weapons.

KingDDD

Ravudha wrote: »

I don't know why everyone's analysing the physics of spears and how they work. I doubt that's the reason they're not in games. If MMO developers can justify scythes and fist weapons there's always a way to justify spears.

My guess: when designing fantasy people think Western medieval, and spears are way down the list of weapons that most people think of from that era. Maybe some Eastern MMOs include spears because they feature a bit more prominently in their military history (just a guess).

It's all about the animations. Shield and spear require very specific animations that only work for shield and spear. It's just not worth the time investment to build animations and rigs for this specific weapon combo. You are more likely to see spear + shield in games that are class locked vs games that have free weapon choice.

Tyranthraxus

Another element to consider is the *era* that most high-fantasy games take place in: mideaval times.

While IRL the short-spear-and-shield combo was used in ancient warfare, we're talking eras like the ancient and classical eras - and there are reasons that armies stopped this combo in-favor of the sword-and-shield. (namely the difficulty of in-fighting of soldiers; your longer weapon is a liability when someone is bumping up against you in a fight to the death!)

When mideaval soldiers carried spears, they were often only for skirmish-purposes and either mixed in with defensive formations of men with sword-and-shield armaments, or they themselves also had a sword and shield, once they had to drop the spear.

Wouldn't mind the option, though. It *is* a game.

daveywavey

MoronicBeing wrote: »

Birdie wrote: »

Because in most games, spears are two handed weapons. Spears can only be used while in formation to keep the enemy troops in a distance. Also strong against cavalry. However it's not useful in 1v1 combat. You can't win with a spear and a shield!
(That's the realistic point of view of course)

I know this is old but I gotta ask, this is a joke right? Over the last 5,000 years the vast majority of infantry in any conflict was fought with spears, this definitely includes one handed spears and shields. Swords and combatants that used them were outright rare in comparison actually. The Chinese, the Aztec, the Greek, the mesopotamian, the Japanese, the hun, the rusk, the Norse, the Ethiopian including the warrior king Memnon, and the native Americans have all throughout history used shields and spears together in combat. They did before swords existed and after swords existed and unlike swords, spears especially the short kind with long broad blades were easy to handle and far easier to kill with. A spear doesn't roll if you strike wrong like a sword does, spears always strike true and are far more dangerous especially in the hands of a farmer or shoe maker. Nobody had to study the spear to kill effectively. Formation be damned the spear is far more effective than any sword in single combat and formation.This comment is silly, you're silly.

Wow, you really dug through 4 years of posts just to find one where you could insult someone! That's going above and beyond.

Vaknar

https://discord.com/channels/256164085366915072/256164085366915072/624226301745823745

Link for anyone who'd like to see it with their own eyes ^_^

JamesSunderland

One-handed Short spear + Shield was possible in Archeage, its good to see that Steven will bring this possibility to Ashes aswell.

Songcaller

Cool beans

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