Risk vs Reward for Gathering, Processing, and Crafting

Risk vs Reward is a tenet that Intrepid boosts for AoC.

Gathering
I see the risk in gathering due to the inherent nature of exploration in the world. PvP and PvE come with risk to travel to locations with resources and the transportation of those resources.

Processing
With the best processing being on Freeholds, I don't see a risk of PvE. PvP also is unclear on Freeholds but does seem like a non-factor. Processing machines are said to require materials but with markets those could also remove risk. Normally with processing and crafting RNG brings in risk but that also is not a factor in AoC.

Crafting
Similar to processing. Location and RNG is not a factor.

Where is the "risk vs reward"?

I've discussed this topic in discord and live stream chat. Node Sieges were used as an argument to impact processing and crafting with the destruction of freeholds and crafting. This would disrupt those categories but very infrequently.

I worry the best processing and crafting locations will be "rich". Rich groups will more easily be able to hire defending groups and prepare for sieges. With the recent bidding system for Freeholds I worry that the Rich groups will win bids, become richer by having short travel times between their highly valued Freehold location by having top tear processing with low travel times to L6 Nodes for crafting (most likely economic node which has a distributed market), and become richer to where they can corner the processing/crafting/freehold markets. "Rich get richer"

Any concern here?

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Azherae

From my perspective it's an obvious flaw and I have multiple concerns, but they're reasonably well known by now I think.

Are you just checking 'if you're alone in your concern' or is there a specific discussion you'd like to have about it?

Raven016

Erodgemon wrote: »

I worry the best processing and crafting locations will be "rich". Rich groups will more easily be able to hire defending groups and prepare for sieges.

If you have to pay for protection, isn't that negotiated? Protection could be expensive unless guild members work for free, for the greater benefit of the guild.
But overall, a smaller group which can do both PvP and PvE will have advantage over groups which need to hire and split their profit.

Depraved

Erodgemon wrote: »

Risk vs Reward is a tenet that Intrepid boosts for AoC.

Gathering
I see the risk in gathering due to the inherent nature of exploration in the world. PvP and PvE come with risk to travel to locations with resources and the transportation of those resources.

Processing
With the best processing being on Freeholds, I don't see a risk of PvE. PvP also is unclear on Freeholds but does seem like a non-factor. Processing machines are said to require materials but with markets those could also remove risk. Normally with processing and crafting RNG brings in risk but that also is not a factor in AoC.

Crafting
Similar to processing. Location and RNG is not a factor.

Where is the "risk vs reward"?

I've discussed this topic in discord and live stream chat. Node Sieges were used as an argument to impact processing and crafting with the destruction of freeholds and crafting. This would disrupt those categories but very infrequently.

I worry the best processing and crafting locations will be "rich". Rich groups will more easily be able to hire defending groups and prepare for sieges. With the recent bidding system for Freeholds I worry that the Rich groups will win bids, become richer by having short travel times between their highly valued Freehold location by having top tear processing with low travel times to L6 Nodes for crafting (most likely economic node which has a distributed market), and become richer to where they can corner the processing/crafting/freehold markets. "Rich get richer"

Any concern here?

it doesnt matter what you do, most of the wealth will be concentrated in a (relatively) small group, wether its by freeholds or not. read about pareto distribution.

and theres also risks with freeholds. they probably give you the best rewards, but they also carry the highest risk. you can lose everything at any time.

Fantmx

It still feels alien to talk about processing and crafting in a risk vs reward scenario beyond failing to craft or process items.

The only place you will be safe on your freehold is in your house so you most certainly could have PvP occuring as you process or craft.

I agree that currently it seems the most rich people will collect the majority of freeholds. But testing will let us see if that is valid.

Ayeveegaming1

Fantmx wrote: »

It still feels alien to talk about processing and crafting in a risk vs reward scenario beyond failing to craft or process items.

The only place you will be safe on your freehold is in your house so you most certainly could have PvP occuring as you process or craft.

I agree that currently it seems the most rich people will collect the majority of freeholds. But testing will let us see if that is valid.

i wonder what faucets could do to mitigate this?

Azherae

Ravicus wrote: »

Fantmx wrote: »

It still feels alien to talk about processing and crafting in a risk vs reward scenario beyond failing to craft or process items.

The only place you will be safe on your freehold is in your house so you most certainly could have PvP occuring as you process or craft.

I agree that currently it seems the most rich people will collect the majority of freeholds. But testing will let us see if that is valid.

i wonder what faucets could do to mitigate this?

It's almost impossible to test this type of game economic model in an Alpha or Beta, I think.

That's what makes it so hard/rare for games to have proper working economies early. Every little mistake snowballs and preliminary testing isn't sufficient.

So we could assume 'faucets will do stuff that fixes it' but beyond that, 'wondering' is probably the right term...

ZippyA

Erodgemon wrote: »

Risk vs Reward is a tenet that Intrepid boosts for AoC.
<...>
Where is the "risk vs reward"?

Very good point. Risk vs Reward is probably the best balancing mechanism ever been implemented in MMO.

There is nothing wrong with "rich" groups taking the sweetest spots.
As long as their assets are not invulnerable and can be raided for a profit by other groups.
The raiding groups are taking risk that must be rewarded accordingly too.
When there is no reward for raiders, there are no raids and hence no risk for the "rich" groups.
That is where the problems begin.

Do you believe the balance is there in AoC?

Ayeveegaming1

Azherae wrote: »

Ravicus wrote: »

Fantmx wrote: »

It still feels alien to talk about processing and crafting in a risk vs reward scenario beyond failing to craft or process items.

The only place you will be safe on your freehold is in your house so you most certainly could have PvP occuring as you process or craft.

I agree that currently it seems the most rich people will collect the majority of freeholds. But testing will let us see if that is valid.

i wonder what faucets could do to mitigate this?

It's almost impossible to test this type of game economic model in an Alpha or Beta, I think.

That's what makes it so hard/rare for games to have proper working economies early. Every little mistake snowballs and preliminary testing isn't sufficient.

So we could assume 'faucets will do stuff that fixes it' but beyond that, 'wondering' is probably the right term...

yep, exactly

HumblePuffin

They spoke quite a few times in the freehold showcase about the need to caravan or mule or even backpack materials to the freehold including fuel. This will include transporting in gatherables to processors, processed goods to crafters, and crafted/gatherable/processed goods back to hubs or economic nodes for auction.

I also don’t think how we get the fuel has been entirely spoken about. There may still be a low level gathering part to this. Chopping down wood, mining coal. To me it seems like there are rather equal risk vs reward scenarios. Probably even more so for transporting processed/crafted goods since it is likely more potential value lost than the gatherables.

ZippyA

Azherae wrote: »

It's almost impossible to test this type of game economic model in an Alpha or Beta, I think.

That's what makes it so hard/rare for games to have proper working economies early. Every little mistake snowballs and preliminary testing isn't sufficient.

So we could assume 'faucets will do stuff that fixes it' but beyond that, 'wondering' is probably the right term...

Issue is that not all stuff can be fixed after release without risking player base.
Players genuinely don't like changes affecting them negatively.
Any change would affect at least some, especially a risk vs reward change.
So I would say for Intrepid (and us) it is either now in an Alpha/Beta or never.

Azherae

ZippyA wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

It's almost impossible to test this type of game economic model in an Alpha or Beta, I think.

That's what makes it so hard/rare for games to have proper working economies early. Every little mistake snowballs and preliminary testing isn't sufficient.

So we could assume 'faucets will do stuff that fixes it' but beyond that, 'wondering' is probably the right term...

Issue is that not all stuff can be fixed after release without risking player base.
Players genuinely don't like changes affecting them negatively.
Any change would affect at least some, especially a risk vs reward change.
So I would say it is either now in an Alpha/Beta or never.

Well, the problem with that perspective is that it's basically 'doomsaying' with no basis.

There is probably some reason why Intrepid is making the decisions they are making. So they must have faith in something.

If they don't, and whoever is driving these decisions is just guessing or going by their 'gut', then there's not as much reason to support the project, but whoever is still here is probably supporting. We can tell them why we think their designs don't work or don't match their initial offering, but what can they say beyond 'well we think they work'?

We can only hope that they understand that these things can't be 'tested' the same way as other things, and are paying close attention to whatever testing method they came up with.

BlackBrony

The Risk vs Reward in a Freehold is basically that you can lose it, I guess. You could also include transporting good from Node to Freehold, since you will need lots of materials.
But if you consider large guilds, well, maybe those can manually move the goods without needing a caravan. If they need a caravan, aren't they large enough to protect it? Remember that you cannot assemble large group fast without fast travel.
Second, large guilds will own freeholds close to the node, so again, they have the advantage imo. And even if they lose the freehold, they made so much money I don't think they will really lose much.

Phlight

Erodgemon wrote: »

I worry the best processing and crafting locations will be "rich". Rich groups will more easily be able to hire defending groups and prepare for sieges. With the recent bidding system for Freeholds I worry that the Rich groups will win bids, become richer by having short travel times between their highly valued Freehold location by having top tear processing with low travel times to L6 Nodes for crafting (most likely economic node which has a distributed market), and become richer to where they can corner the processing/crafting/freehold markets. "Rich get richer"

I don't think there is a problem with a group of people becoming rich collectively. From an old school MMO perspective, large groups of players helping one another out towards a common goal is what MMOs were built on. I doubt there will be a purely solo player capable of attaining a Freehold. As Steven has stated it will take a large effort from many players to attain a Freehold. The world will be vast and if a market isn't to your liking, you can take a group of your friends and try to establish a new Node where you can do the same thing.

Try not to get hung up on 1 specific Node operating not to your liking. If you feeling like a specific group of players are getting too much of an advantage, build up a neighboring Node and siege them. Group with similar minded players and attack on sight all players in that guild. Attack all caravans and camp them non stop. Create their("the rich")risk. AoC is a player driven and created world with a vast amount of solutions to your problem.

superhero6785

1 word: Caravans

To process materials, you first need to transport all the materials to a sufficient Freehold. That takes risk. Sure, you could carry them on your person, but that would likely be very time consuming. So to save time, you take the risk of being attacked during a caravan.

Then, you must transport the processed goods back to where they can be crafted. Again, this takes risk, or time.

Veeshan

Risk for processors is they need to caravan there resource to town to do anything with it, and probaly resources too your freehold aswell

Gathering risk a little amount of resources but more risk takens vuia multipul trips

Processing risk a huge amount at once but doesnt need to risk as much as often due to caravan bring a load of resources at once

Crafters risk is i guess depends on market i guess being undercut and not selling things it could unprofitable aswell depending how they do gear decay since once everyoen gets BIS your items are worthless potentially which is how alot of games go, unless ur highest level crafter infront of the curve u make nothing due to people out pacing ur crafts and at max l;evel everyone already bought the best crafted items off others so your items have no market. I just hope gear decays and get removed from the game in some way or require completed equipment to repair but we shal see where they go with that.

Depraved

Veeshan wrote: »

Risk for processors is they need to caravan there resource to town to do anything with it, and probaly resources too your freehold aswell

Gathering risk a little amount of resources but more risk takens vuia multipul trips

Processing risk a huge amount at once but doesnt need to risk as much as often due to caravan bring a load of resources at once

Crafters risk is i guess depends on market i guess being undercut and not selling things it could unprofitable aswell depending how they do gear decay since once everyoen gets BIS your items are worthless potentially which is how alot of games go, unless ur highest level crafter infront of the curve u make nothing due to people out pacing ur crafts and at max l;evel everyone already bought the best crafted items off others so your items have no market. I just hope gear decays and get removed from the game in some way or require completed equipment to repair but we shal see where they go with that.

what if the amount of time it takes to make a full set of gear is so long that not every single player at max level will be able to get their bis gear before the new expansion or gear comes out? then you don't need to remove gear...

steven has already said that getting your gear will take a lot of time and effort. it will probably take months and more than what it takes to level up from 1-50

Caww

the risk of reduced rates for processing and more likely failure rates for crafting would introduce the risk vs reward aspect

Veeshan

Depraved wrote: »

Veeshan wrote: »

Risk for processors is they need to caravan there resource to town to do anything with it, and probaly resources too your freehold aswell

Gathering risk a little amount of resources but more risk takens vuia multipul trips

Processing risk a huge amount at once but doesnt need to risk as much as often due to caravan bring a load of resources at once

Crafters risk is i guess depends on market i guess being undercut and not selling things it could unprofitable aswell depending how they do gear decay since once everyoen gets BIS your items are worthless potentially which is how alot of games go, unless ur highest level crafter infront of the curve u make nothing due to people out pacing ur crafts and at max l;evel everyone already bought the best crafted items off others so your items have no market. I just hope gear decays and get removed from the game in some way or require completed equipment to repair but we shal see where they go with that.

what if the amount of time it takes to make a full set of gear is so long that not every single player at max level will be able to get their bis gear before the new expansion or gear comes out? then you don't need to remove gear...

steven has already said that getting your gear will take a lot of time and effort. it will probably take months and more than what it takes to level up from 1-50

thats cause majority of the BIS gear wil be from raid drops then given to crafters however outside of rare drops majority of items crafted at high level will be the easier to craft high end gear and people will get than fairly quickly and your not likely gonna be able to craft bulk of the stuff above that due to needing a specific drop from a raid boss.

Gues what im trying to say is the stuff you will be crafting alot of will be the easy to obtain stuff and then it become useless due to everyone having it and u wont be able to craft rarer stuff as easily so ur profit will be sparse waiting to acquire a rare drop. If you cant make money off the easy to crtaft high level gear getting a consistent income as a crafter will be rough especially since atm gear repair is based off processed mats last we heard so your role is skipped entirly there (you might need to do the actual repair i guess but i feel that be tedious for players to find people to constantly repair). The better method i guess would be to have repair kit crafters make but then you get to a stage were the weapon smith will only be crafting weapon repair kits since his weapon are not desired outside of rare dropped ones, which is silly for a weapon smith to like not be crafting weapons but silly consumable to repair. I think repairing an item should take completed weapon to fuse in with the old to repair durability so the base high level equipment is always in demand by players.

Veeshan

superhero6785 wrote: »

1 word: Caravans

To process materials, you first need to transport all the materials to a sufficient Freehold. That takes risk. Sure, you could carry them on your person, but that would likely be very time consuming. So to save time, you take the risk of being attacked during a caravan.

Then, you must transport the processed goods back to where they can be crafted. Again, this takes risk, or time.

early on in the game you could cripple an opposing nodes be constantly raiding the processed good caravans so you can reduce the speed of their node crafters being able to level while increasing yours, some interesting things can happen with node progression race :P

Depraved

Veeshan wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Veeshan wrote: »

Risk for processors is they need to caravan there resource to town to do anything with it, and probaly resources too your freehold aswell

Gathering risk a little amount of resources but more risk takens vuia multipul trips

Processing risk a huge amount at once but doesnt need to risk as much as often due to caravan bring a load of resources at once

Crafters risk is i guess depends on market i guess being undercut and not selling things it could unprofitable aswell depending how they do gear decay since once everyoen gets BIS your items are worthless potentially which is how alot of games go, unless ur highest level crafter infront of the curve u make nothing due to people out pacing ur crafts and at max l;evel everyone already bought the best crafted items off others so your items have no market. I just hope gear decays and get removed from the game in some way or require completed equipment to repair but we shal see where they go with that.

what if the amount of time it takes to make a full set of gear is so long that not every single player at max level will be able to get their bis gear before the new expansion or gear comes out? then you don't need to remove gear...

steven has already said that getting your gear will take a lot of time and effort. it will probably take months and more than what it takes to level up from 1-50

thats cause majority of the BIS gear wil be from raid drops then given to crafters however outside of rare drops majority of items crafted at high level will be the easier to craft high end gear and people will get than fairly quickly and your not likely gonna be able to craft bulk of the stuff above that due to needing a specific drop from a raid boss.

Gues what im trying to say is the stuff you will be crafting alot of will be the easy to obtain stuff and then it become useless due to everyone having it and u wont be able to craft rarer stuff as easily so ur profit will be sparse waiting to acquire a rare drop. If you cant make money off the easy to crtaft high level gear getting a consistent income as a crafter will be rough especially since atm gear repair is based off processed mats last we heard so your role is skipped entirly there (you might need to do the actual repair i guess but i feel that be tedious for players to find people to constantly repair). The better method i guess would be to have repair kit crafters make but then you get to a stage were the weapon smith will only be crafting weapon repair kits since his weapon are not desired outside of rare dropped ones, which is silly for a weapon smith to like not be crafting weapons but silly consumable to repair. I think repairing an item should take completed weapon to fuse in with the old to repair durability so the base high level equipment is always in demand by players.

bis comes from crafting, not from bosses, already confirmed

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