superhero6785 wrote: » 1 word: Caravans To process materials, you first need to transport all the materials to a sufficient Freehold. That takes risk. Sure, you could carry them on your person, but that would likely be very time consuming. So to save time, you take the risk of being attacked during a caravan.
Depraved wrote: » Veeshan wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Veeshan wrote: » Risk for processors is they need to caravan there resource to town to do anything with it, and probaly resources too your freehold aswell Gathering risk a little amount of resources but more risk takens vuia multipul trips Processing risk a huge amount at once but doesnt need to risk as much as often due to caravan bring a load of resources at once Crafters risk is i guess depends on market i guess being undercut and not selling things it could unprofitable aswell depending how they do gear decay since once everyoen gets BIS your items are worthless potentially which is how alot of games go, unless ur highest level crafter infront of the curve u make nothing due to people out pacing ur crafts and at max l;evel everyone already bought the best crafted items off others so your items have no market. I just hope gear decays and get removed from the game in some way or require completed equipment to repair but we shal see where they go with that. what if the amount of time it takes to make a full set of gear is so long that not every single player at max level will be able to get their bis gear before the new expansion or gear comes out? then you don't need to remove gear... steven has already said that getting your gear will take a lot of time and effort. it will probably take months and more than what it takes to level up from 1-50 thats cause majority of the BIS gear wil be from raid drops then given to crafters however outside of rare drops majority of items crafted at high level will be the easier to craft high end gear and people will get than fairly quickly and your not likely gonna be able to craft bulk of the stuff above that due to needing a specific drop from a raid boss. Gues what im trying to say is the stuff you will be crafting alot of will be the easy to obtain stuff and then it become useless due to everyone having it and u wont be able to craft rarer stuff as easily so ur profit will be sparse waiting to acquire a rare drop. If you cant make money off the easy to crtaft high level gear getting a consistent income as a crafter will be rough especially since atm gear repair is based off processed mats last we heard so your role is skipped entirly there (you might need to do the actual repair i guess but i feel that be tedious for players to find people to constantly repair). The better method i guess would be to have repair kit crafters make but then you get to a stage were the weapon smith will only be crafting weapon repair kits since his weapon are not desired outside of rare dropped ones, which is silly for a weapon smith to like not be crafting weapons but silly consumable to repair. I think repairing an item should take completed weapon to fuse in with the old to repair durability so the base high level equipment is always in demand by players. bis comes from crafting, not from bosses, already confirmed
Veeshan wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Veeshan wrote: » Risk for processors is they need to caravan there resource to town to do anything with it, and probaly resources too your freehold aswell Gathering risk a little amount of resources but more risk takens vuia multipul trips Processing risk a huge amount at once but doesnt need to risk as much as often due to caravan bring a load of resources at once Crafters risk is i guess depends on market i guess being undercut and not selling things it could unprofitable aswell depending how they do gear decay since once everyoen gets BIS your items are worthless potentially which is how alot of games go, unless ur highest level crafter infront of the curve u make nothing due to people out pacing ur crafts and at max l;evel everyone already bought the best crafted items off others so your items have no market. I just hope gear decays and get removed from the game in some way or require completed equipment to repair but we shal see where they go with that. what if the amount of time it takes to make a full set of gear is so long that not every single player at max level will be able to get their bis gear before the new expansion or gear comes out? then you don't need to remove gear... steven has already said that getting your gear will take a lot of time and effort. it will probably take months and more than what it takes to level up from 1-50 thats cause majority of the BIS gear wil be from raid drops then given to crafters however outside of rare drops majority of items crafted at high level will be the easier to craft high end gear and people will get than fairly quickly and your not likely gonna be able to craft bulk of the stuff above that due to needing a specific drop from a raid boss. Gues what im trying to say is the stuff you will be crafting alot of will be the easy to obtain stuff and then it become useless due to everyone having it and u wont be able to craft rarer stuff as easily so ur profit will be sparse waiting to acquire a rare drop. If you cant make money off the easy to crtaft high level gear getting a consistent income as a crafter will be rough especially since atm gear repair is based off processed mats last we heard so your role is skipped entirly there (you might need to do the actual repair i guess but i feel that be tedious for players to find people to constantly repair). The better method i guess would be to have repair kit crafters make but then you get to a stage were the weapon smith will only be crafting weapon repair kits since his weapon are not desired outside of rare dropped ones, which is silly for a weapon smith to like not be crafting weapons but silly consumable to repair. I think repairing an item should take completed weapon to fuse in with the old to repair durability so the base high level equipment is always in demand by players.
Depraved wrote: » Veeshan wrote: » Risk for processors is they need to caravan there resource to town to do anything with it, and probaly resources too your freehold aswell Gathering risk a little amount of resources but more risk takens vuia multipul trips Processing risk a huge amount at once but doesnt need to risk as much as often due to caravan bring a load of resources at once Crafters risk is i guess depends on market i guess being undercut and not selling things it could unprofitable aswell depending how they do gear decay since once everyoen gets BIS your items are worthless potentially which is how alot of games go, unless ur highest level crafter infront of the curve u make nothing due to people out pacing ur crafts and at max l;evel everyone already bought the best crafted items off others so your items have no market. I just hope gear decays and get removed from the game in some way or require completed equipment to repair but we shal see where they go with that. what if the amount of time it takes to make a full set of gear is so long that not every single player at max level will be able to get their bis gear before the new expansion or gear comes out? then you don't need to remove gear... steven has already said that getting your gear will take a lot of time and effort. it will probably take months and more than what it takes to level up from 1-50
Veeshan wrote: » Risk for processors is they need to caravan there resource to town to do anything with it, and probaly resources too your freehold aswell Gathering risk a little amount of resources but more risk takens vuia multipul trips Processing risk a huge amount at once but doesnt need to risk as much as often due to caravan bring a load of resources at once Crafters risk is i guess depends on market i guess being undercut and not selling things it could unprofitable aswell depending how they do gear decay since once everyoen gets BIS your items are worthless potentially which is how alot of games go, unless ur highest level crafter infront of the curve u make nothing due to people out pacing ur crafts and at max l;evel everyone already bought the best crafted items off others so your items have no market. I just hope gear decays and get removed from the game in some way or require completed equipment to repair but we shal see where they go with that.
Azherae wrote: » On that note, Intrepid, I can't be certain obviously but I think that 'Weaponsmithing' and 'Armorsmithing' are generally flawed as 'Artisan Professions' when sorted into this type of 'limited mastery' system. Just in case it's not too far along to change it. I think it's a holdover from a specific set of simplified Korean games from a particular period. My understanding of why they exist this way is to make them easier to understand, but it's a simplification that seems to start to break when you want your game to have a really strong economic model.
Veeshan wrote: » Azherae wrote: » On that note, Intrepid, I can't be certain obviously but I think that 'Weaponsmithing' and 'Armorsmithing' are generally flawed as 'Artisan Professions' when sorted into this type of 'limited mastery' system. Just in case it's not too far along to change it. I think it's a holdover from a specific set of simplified Korean games from a particular period. My understanding of why they exist this way is to make them easier to understand, but it's a simplification that seems to start to break when you want your game to have a really strong economic model. weaponsmithing and armorsmithing get split up cause it overloads that profession compared to the others -Blacksmithing = Metal weapons metal armor (Weapons+Armor) Leather working = Leather armor (armor) Woodworking = Bows, staffs,wands wooden weapons (Weapons) Tailor = light armor (Armor) these are just general profession plucked out of my ass not AoC just used those from other games as examples and so on you basicly get twice as much as the other profession in alot of the cases so generaly they get split into 2 professions otherwise you see everyone go blacksmithing cause there more options especialy when your a heavy armor melee person cause one profession makes your whole kit
Azherae wrote: » Veeshan wrote: » Azherae wrote: » On that note, Intrepid, I can't be certain obviously but I think that 'Weaponsmithing' and 'Armorsmithing' are generally flawed as 'Artisan Professions' when sorted into this type of 'limited mastery' system. Just in case it's not too far along to change it. I think it's a holdover from a specific set of simplified Korean games from a particular period. My understanding of why they exist this way is to make them easier to understand, but it's a simplification that seems to start to break when you want your game to have a really strong economic model. weaponsmithing and armorsmithing get split up cause it overloads that profession compared to the others -Blacksmithing = Metal weapons metal armor (Weapons+Armor) Leather working = Leather armor (armor) Woodworking = Bows, staffs,wands wooden weapons (Weapons) Tailor = light armor (Armor) these are just general profession plucked out of my ass not AoC just used those from other games as examples and so on you basicly get twice as much as the other profession in alot of the cases so generaly they get split into 2 professions otherwise you see everyone go blacksmithing cause there more options especialy when your a heavy armor melee person cause one profession makes your whole kit Yes, that's my point. If you want to build a stronger econ model, you split them up and then put in a specific type of effort, but then it becomes complexity. But in a less simplistic game, the other mentioned Professions have more things to do and don't get squashed so much. I just realized that I've never explicitly mentioned it before because, well... as much as I wish it was, Ashes ain't FFXI so I don't like to just 'tell them FFXI systems are better'. But in this case, they are, Intrepid, mostly because much like FFXI, you have enough stuff for the subsections to do, and you're going to have some confusions anyway. For reference, the FFXI ones are: Woodworking - Bows, required for some Crossbows, Furniture, Wands, Staves, etc Boneworking - Bone Daggers and similar, some furniture/tools, some armor/helmets Clothcraft - Cloth armor, required for certain metal armor Leatherworking - Leather Armor, preprocessing, certain metal armor Alchemy - Obvious Cooking - Obvious Goldsmithing - Usually obvious, also includes precision machinery along with the jewelry and armor deco Smithing - More armor and weapons than most, some tools The above are not a suggestion in any way, I don't want anything changed to this. If simplicity is a requirement, then go for it. It just makes me think an opportunity is being lost if simplicity isn't the primary goal. We just had some thread about if Bows fall under Weaponsmithing for a reason.
Veeshan wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Veeshan wrote: » Azherae wrote: » On that note, Intrepid, I can't be certain obviously but I think that 'Weaponsmithing' and 'Armorsmithing' are generally flawed as 'Artisan Professions' when sorted into this type of 'limited mastery' system. Just in case it's not too far along to change it. I think it's a holdover from a specific set of simplified Korean games from a particular period. My understanding of why they exist this way is to make them easier to understand, but it's a simplification that seems to start to break when you want your game to have a really strong economic model. weaponsmithing and armorsmithing get split up cause it overloads that profession compared to the others -Blacksmithing = Metal weapons metal armor (Weapons+Armor) Leather working = Leather armor (armor) Woodworking = Bows, staffs,wands wooden weapons (Weapons) Tailor = light armor (Armor) these are just general profession plucked out of my ass not AoC just used those from other games as examples and so on you basicly get twice as much as the other profession in alot of the cases so generaly they get split into 2 professions otherwise you see everyone go blacksmithing cause there more options especialy when your a heavy armor melee person cause one profession makes your whole kit Yes, that's my point. If you want to build a stronger econ model, you split them up and then put in a specific type of effort, but then it becomes complexity. But in a less simplistic game, the other mentioned Professions have more things to do and don't get squashed so much. I just realized that I've never explicitly mentioned it before because, well... as much as I wish it was, Ashes ain't FFXI so I don't like to just 'tell them FFXI systems are better'. But in this case, they are, Intrepid, mostly because much like FFXI, you have enough stuff for the subsections to do, and you're going to have some confusions anyway. For reference, the FFXI ones are: Woodworking - Bows, required for some Crossbows, Furniture, Wands, Staves, etc Boneworking - Bone Daggers and similar, some furniture/tools, some armor/helmets Clothcraft - Cloth armor, required for certain metal armor Leatherworking - Leather Armor, preprocessing, certain metal armor Alchemy - Obvious Cooking - Obvious Goldsmithing - Usually obvious, also includes precision machinery along with the jewelry and armor deco Smithing - More armor and weapons than most, some tools The above are not a suggestion in any way, I don't want anything changed to this. If simplicity is a requirement, then go for it. It just makes me think an opportunity is being lost if simplicity isn't the primary goal. We just had some thread about if Bows fall under Weaponsmithing for a reason. https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Artisan_classes these are ur professions for AoC btw if u didnt know
Veeshan wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Veeshan wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Veeshan wrote: » Risk for processors is they need to caravan there resource to town to do anything with it, and probaly resources too your freehold aswell Gathering risk a little amount of resources but more risk takens vuia multipul trips Processing risk a huge amount at once but doesnt need to risk as much as often due to caravan bring a load of resources at once Crafters risk is i guess depends on market i guess being undercut and not selling things it could unprofitable aswell depending how they do gear decay since once everyoen gets BIS your items are worthless potentially which is how alot of games go, unless ur highest level crafter infront of the curve u make nothing due to people out pacing ur crafts and at max l;evel everyone already bought the best crafted items off others so your items have no market. I just hope gear decays and get removed from the game in some way or require completed equipment to repair but we shal see where they go with that. what if the amount of time it takes to make a full set of gear is so long that not every single player at max level will be able to get their bis gear before the new expansion or gear comes out? then you don't need to remove gear... steven has already said that getting your gear will take a lot of time and effort. it will probably take months and more than what it takes to level up from 1-50 thats cause majority of the BIS gear wil be from raid drops then given to crafters however outside of rare drops majority of items crafted at high level will be the easier to craft high end gear and people will get than fairly quickly and your not likely gonna be able to craft bulk of the stuff above that due to needing a specific drop from a raid boss. Gues what im trying to say is the stuff you will be crafting alot of will be the easy to obtain stuff and then it become useless due to everyone having it and u wont be able to craft rarer stuff as easily so ur profit will be sparse waiting to acquire a rare drop. If you cant make money off the easy to crtaft high level gear getting a consistent income as a crafter will be rough especially since atm gear repair is based off processed mats last we heard so your role is skipped entirly there (you might need to do the actual repair i guess but i feel that be tedious for players to find people to constantly repair). The better method i guess would be to have repair kit crafters make but then you get to a stage were the weapon smith will only be crafting weapon repair kits since his weapon are not desired outside of rare dropped ones, which is silly for a weapon smith to like not be crafting weapons but silly consumable to repair. I think repairing an item should take completed weapon to fuse in with the old to repair durability so the base high level equipment is always in demand by players. bis comes from crafting, not from bosses, already confirmed bis in slot coem from crafting items that dropped from raid bosses so yes they come from bosses just gotta use a crafter as a middle man to get it crafted for you. your baseline high level gear will most likly require gathering mats from both main continent and a smaller island to promote trade run between the continents, and then your higher tiered max level gear after that will need an item dropped from mobs along with there recipes being solo mob, dungeon drops or raid drops in some way or form either via recipe or specific item loot from x mob
daveywavey wrote: » superhero6785 wrote: » 1 word: Caravans To process materials, you first need to transport all the materials to a sufficient Freehold. That takes risk. Sure, you could carry them on your person, but that would likely be very time consuming. So to save time, you take the risk of being attacked during a caravan. Would you say that's a Processor Risk or another Gatherer Risk? Scenario: - You, as a Gatherer, have an agreement to bring a Processor 4000 units of Raw-Resource and they'll give you the 400 units of Processed-Resource - Your caravan gets attacked and destroyed along the way, and you lose it all. - You get to the Processor's freehold and tell them what happened. Are they: - Going to sigh and say: "Ohhhh man, I guess I don't get paid for these, then", and then give you the 400 units of Processed-Resource for nothing or - Going to sigh and say: "Ah well, that's the risk you take, I suppose", and then walk away, leaving you to your 4000 Raw-Resource loss
superhero6785 wrote: » daveywavey wrote: » superhero6785 wrote: » 1 word: Caravans To process materials, you first need to transport all the materials to a sufficient Freehold. That takes risk. Sure, you could carry them on your person, but that would likely be very time consuming. So to save time, you take the risk of being attacked during a caravan. Would you say that's a Processor Risk or another Gatherer Risk? Scenario: - You, as a Gatherer, have an agreement to bring a Processor 4000 units of Raw-Resource and they'll give you the 400 units of Processed-Resource - Your caravan gets attacked and destroyed along the way, and you lose it all. - You get to the Processor's freehold and tell them what happened. Are they: - Going to sigh and say: "Ohhhh man, I guess I don't get paid for these, then", and then give you the 400 units of Processed-Resource for nothing or - Going to sigh and say: "Ah well, that's the risk you take, I suppose", and then walk away, leaving you to your 4000 Raw-Resource loss I think some people will work out private arrangements, and that risk/reward is whatever they agree to. But I think the average player is going to use the in-game systems and allow Market prices to dictate everything.It will go like this: 1) Gatherer assumes the risk of gathering goods and transporting them to the Market. 2) Processor buys raw mats from the Market and assumes the risk of transporting them to a suitable Freehold and then back to the Market to be sold as processed goods. 3) Crafters buys processed goods and assumes risk of transporting them to suitable crafting stations, crafting, and transporting back to the Market for final sale.
BlackBrony wrote: » superhero6785 wrote: » daveywavey wrote: » superhero6785 wrote: » 1 word: Caravans To process materials, you first need to transport all the materials to a sufficient Freehold. That takes risk. Sure, you could carry them on your person, but that would likely be very time consuming. So to save time, you take the risk of being attacked during a caravan. Would you say that's a Processor Risk or another Gatherer Risk? Scenario: - You, as a Gatherer, have an agreement to bring a Processor 4000 units of Raw-Resource and they'll give you the 400 units of Processed-Resource - Your caravan gets attacked and destroyed along the way, and you lose it all. - You get to the Processor's freehold and tell them what happened. Are they: - Going to sigh and say: "Ohhhh man, I guess I don't get paid for these, then", and then give you the 400 units of Processed-Resource for nothing or - Going to sigh and say: "Ah well, that's the risk you take, I suppose", and then walk away, leaving you to your 4000 Raw-Resource loss I think some people will work out private arrangements, and that risk/reward is whatever they agree to. But I think the average player is going to use the in-game systems and allow Market prices to dictate everything.It will go like this: 1) Gatherer assumes the risk of gathering goods and transporting them to the Market. 2) Processor buys raw mats from the Market and assumes the risk of transporting them to a suitable Freehold and then back to the Market to be sold as processed goods. 3) Crafters buys processed goods and assumes risk of transporting them to suitable crafting stations, crafting, and transporting back to the Market for final sale. Well, there's one problem though. Gathering is not restricted by anything, while processing and crafting is. Therefore the value of gatherable materials might be null. Yes, early it might be the most important, but once people have leveled, the prices will be crap.
superhero6785 wrote: » What makes you say gathering is not restricted by anything?
CROW3 wrote: » superhero6785 wrote: » What makes you say gathering is not restricted by anything? Raw mats may be commodified early on, but for me gathering will be the best profession for soloing and exploring.
Ravicus wrote: » BlackBrony wrote: » superhero6785 wrote: » daveywavey wrote: » superhero6785 wrote: » 1 word: Caravans To process materials, you first need to transport all the materials to a sufficient Freehold. That takes risk. Sure, you could carry them on your person, but that would likely be very time consuming. So to save time, you take the risk of being attacked during a caravan. Would you say that's a Processor Risk or another Gatherer Risk? Scenario: - You, as a Gatherer, have an agreement to bring a Processor 4000 units of Raw-Resource and they'll give you the 400 units of Processed-Resource - Your caravan gets attacked and destroyed along the way, and you lose it all. - You get to the Processor's freehold and tell them what happened. Are they: - Going to sigh and say: "Ohhhh man, I guess I don't get paid for these, then", and then give you the 400 units of Processed-Resource for nothing or - Going to sigh and say: "Ah well, that's the risk you take, I suppose", and then walk away, leaving you to your 4000 Raw-Resource loss I think some people will work out private arrangements, and that risk/reward is whatever they agree to. But I think the average player is going to use the in-game systems and allow Market prices to dictate everything.It will go like this: 1) Gatherer assumes the risk of gathering goods and transporting them to the Market. 2) Processor buys raw mats from the Market and assumes the risk of transporting them to a suitable Freehold and then back to the Market to be sold as processed goods. 3) Crafters buys processed goods and assumes risk of transporting them to suitable crafting stations, crafting, and transporting back to the Market for final sale. Well, there's one problem though. Gathering is not restricted by anything, while processing and crafting is. Therefore the value of gatherable materials might be null. Yes, early it might be the most important, but once people have leveled, the prices will be crap. The thing is you also gain levels in gathering so you will be able to harvest higher level mats.
