AoC isn't as Niche as everyone thinks

So here's my take...

WoW Hardcore, Extraction Shooters, Survival, Classic WoW. We are definitely seeing a trend in what gamers want. Theme Park/Railroad content games are going the way of Guitar Hero.

Blizzard saw so much success with Classic and Hardcore they made them official.

Survival games,some if not most have come with hardcore rule sets,( dropping all gear, open PVP) Ark being one of the biggest had both of these. Now even Blizzard is jumping in although I suspect it will be a watered down for everyone experience.

Extraction shooters stemming from Tarkov's success(very hardcore style game) have started popping up everywhere.

If I know one thing it's when companies and investors start putting their money in to it you know the numbers are there in some fashion and they like what they see.

All I hear from everyone, Including Asmongold and other streamers is this is a niche game and it's not for everyone. Don While I don't disagree I think the degree of which they are implying is over stated, to the point that they think it might not be a very big game at all.

While it certainly won't be COD, I also think it's potential could be much higher then New World saw at its peak. Which would be considered a massive success.

I Understand that people don't want to get their hopes up and there's a lot of cynical people and deservedly so but if I am going to be real about it, the more I see the better it gets. It's like going from a narcissistic relationship to a healthy one, sometimes it just seems too good to be true but that's more about your past relationship then your current one. Just like that I think it's only fair we treat AoC and the devs with their fair shake. They have done nothing but be completely upfront and honest and currently in my eyes have the most integrity I have seen in a while and I have been around for a while.(I played UO and EQ1 a lot)

There is a lot to look forward to and don't let your past disappoints ruin your experience. Judge it on its own merits. Don't buy into the cynical majority and copy past the copium quotes. I might be disappointed, that's definitely a possibility but I am also ok with that. At least as far as I can tell they are putting their best foot forward and for now that's enough.

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Dygz

Yeah, I mean... of course, some delay in 2020.
But, again, the game was supposed to release before 2020. If it had, that would have been before COVID lockdowns.

And, then Alpha 1 was in 2021. After lockdowns, but before they moved back to working from the studio.
That seemed like a fairly reasonable time frame given the lockdowns.
I mean... most people understood even from Kickstarter, that Before 2020 was mostly car salseman hype.
None of us were expecting a 2-year gap between Alpha 1 and Alpha 2, but...
That's because it wasn't made super-clear inititially that they had changed their schedule philosphy to fit with the more reasonable expectation of 5-10 years form Alpha to Release for an MMORPG.

Ayeveegaming1

Dygz wrote: »

Yeah, I mean... of course, some delay in 2020.
But, again, the game was supposed to release before 2020. If it had, that would have been before COVID lockdowns.

And, then Alpha 1 was in 2021. After lockdowns, but before they moved back to working from the studio.
That seemed like a fairly reasonable time frame given the lockdowns.
I mean... most people understood even from Kickstarter, that Before 2020 was mostly car salseman hype.
None of us were expecting a 2-year gap between Alpha 1 and Alpha 2, but...
That's because it wasn't made super-clear inititially that they had changed their schedule philosphy to fit with the more reasonable expectation of 5-10 years form Alpha to Release for an MMORPG.

All I was asking was if covid was a factor between 2017 and the present. Nothing about when things where supposed to be released or the new schedual. Is there anywhere I can find where they discussed this new schedual?

Dygz

Oh! I don't think I even know how to search for that.
I think at some point around the 1 year gap after Alpha 1, we began to realize that
"Alpha 2 when its ready" meant it probably is not happening any time in the next few months.
And then by the time we're getting closer to 2 years, we realize that means Release is likely at least a couple years from now.
It's already 5 years since Kickstarter.

Fiddlez

Not sure why a delay is bad? Pretty sure everyone's agreed that this always seems to be better.

5 years for their progress is really good. Realistically what people are going to want is an alpha 2. Which is probably why they really want to make sure their Alpha 2 is solid because people are insane and will judge the final product on it.

Ayeveegaming1

Fiddlez wrote: »

Not sure why a delay is bad? Pretty sure everyone's agreed that this always seems to be better

I have at least 10 games in my steam library that I have not even played yet. I can wait for a good finished product. I am kind of wanting to play alpha 2 though to start looking for bugs!

Dygz

Fiddlez wrote: »

Not sure why a delay is bad? Pretty sure everyone's agreed that this always seems to be better.

Who has been saying a delay is bad?

Fiddlez

Dygz wrote: »

Fiddlez wrote: »

"Participation Trophy" is a design philosophy difference. It is what you seem to be leaning heavily towards and assuming others want too. It's what I disagree with. It's the idea that if I spend my time playing a game that I should have the opportunity to have something or in other words a participation award. So that might not be first prize but I am always going to get rewards.

Again... this is not really a thing used in game design AFAIK.
It is a pejorative used by Hardcore Challenge gamers.
So, yes, devs who are Hardcore Challenge gamers might incorporate that bias into their game design.

Sorry but I disagree in every way.

Fiddlez wrote: »

You're experience with Open World PVP seems limited. You are still focusing on this aspect on it as this big hurdle. Really, only L2 , UO And AA had this type of system, might have been others but I wouldn't consider them relevant.

You're saying limited experience, when it's intentionally limited since I don't enjoy the PvP rulesets for UO, AA and L2.

I am saying your experience is limited with playing PVP games, yours specifically. Whether it's intentional or not isn't the point.

Fiddlez wrote: »

I could be wrong there but not enough to invalidate my point. So basically this type of world or game design really hasn't been iterated or improved on very much. There's a reason that Intrepid is adding it. They are not creating a PVP or PVE game, they are creating a true MMORPG. Where the focus is on the world.

LMAO
And that term "True MMORPG" is so absurd, I can no longer take you seriously.
I'm done. Have a great life.

The impression I get is you don't take anyone seriously. You are free to disagree but once someone tries to diminish anyone's else's opinion, in my experience there's only one reason someone does it and it's never good.

Fiddlez

Dygz wrote: »

Fiddlez wrote: »

Not sure why a delay is bad? Pretty sure everyone's agreed that this always seems to be better.

Who has been saying a delay is bad?

I doubt anyone who reads your posts about AoC delays would construe it as positive.

Dygz

Fiddlez wrote: »

The impression I get is you don't take anyone seriously. You are free to disagree but once someone tries to diminish anyone's else's opinion, in my experience there's only one reason someone does it and it's never good.

At this point, I really don't care what you, specifically, think or what your impressions are. You are probably the one person on the forums I absolutely do not take seriously.
That is how absurd I find your comment about creating a true MMORPG to be.

Fiddlez

Dygz wrote: »

Fiddlez wrote: »

The impression I get is you don't take anyone seriously. You are free to disagree but once someone tries to diminish anyone's else's opinion, in my experience there's only one reason someone does it and it's never good.

At this point, I really don't care what you, specifically, think or what your impressions are. You are probably the one person on the forums I absolutely do not take seriously.
That is how absurd I find your comment about creating a true MMORPG to be.

acki02

Dygz wrote: »

Fiddlez wrote: »

"Participation Trophy" is a design philosophy difference. It is what you seem to be leaning heavily towards and assuming others want too. It's what I disagree with. It's the idea that if I spend my time playing a game that I should have the opportunity to have something or in other words a participation award. So that might not be first prize but I am always going to get rewards.

Again... this is not really a thing used in game design AFAIK.
It is a pejorative used by Hardcore Challenge gamers.
So, yes, devs who are Hardcore Challenge gamers might incorporate that bias into their game design.

Well, why not? As someone who lurks in game design spaces, this seems like not only a valid thing to use, but also not an uncommon thing in use already.

Dygz

I asked some of my pals who are currently working as game designers.
They said it's very uncommon to hear that.

Noaani

I can't say I've heard many game developers talk about participation trophies either.

Fiddlez

Noaani wrote: »

I can't say I've heard many game developers talk about participation trophies either.

Steven Shariff has mentioned no participation trophies multiple times. Infact it's in direct reference to the Freehold Update video and how they work and why not everyone will get one. Its just a philosophy. I would imagine most game devs don't concern themselves with it since this would be a pretty high level design choice.

You will also find that most people don't innovate. They have families, hobbies and you know, life. So asking them to be philosophical on the a core pillar of game design seems like a bit much.

Alot of games these days are designed around Battle Passes, seasonal and F2P monetization options like Online Stores. Why pay money for something if you aren't guaranteed something for it? It's psychology and dopamine.

Participation award in this case is a philosophical difference in how you want the game to be developed. With a focus on achievements that you might not be able to get just because you play. Some thing's will be unattainable for some people. The philosophy would be that you want to create an atmosphere or immersive experience more so then just rewarding every player. I don't consider this hardcore at all and has no bearing on anything related to "hardcore".

Fantmx

I think it matters if we are referring to a very large community or a smaller community. If we are talking success the entire gaming community then I think it is fair to include those that largely play shooters or mobas or BRs, etc. If we are speaking about the mmorpg community then that is where our mindset should be.

If we are just speaking about the mmorpg community I think niche is an appropriate term.

If we are including everyone who plays in any type of PvP game and Ashes ends up being almost entirely meaningful on a pvp side only then there is more of a chance it will be less niche.

At least in my head it matters, maybe not in others.

KingDDD wrote: »

CROW3 wrote: »

KingDDD wrote: »

The thing about Crowfall is they sold 70k+ copies of the game. While some of that's inflated by Kickstarter and people buying multiple copies, it still illustrates how this type of game can achieve relatively high sales numbers even with abysmal marketing.

Just to clarify, Crowfall’s failure wasn’t a marketing problem. It failed from the bottom up (just being a poor game with some terrible gameplay decisions) and from the top down (bad financial management, poor leadership, and short term thinking).

I can't tell you the number of people who posted on reddit, fansites, discord, etc who all said they were unaware the game "launched". Was Crowfall a game that was generally average to mediocre in every way possible, yes. But if people aren't playing they aren't paying.

This is an interesting observation and one I have made as well. I call it The Crowfall Conundrum. And I think Intrepid is trying to avoid it. Crowfall had no fanfare for it's launch because he had been up and playable for years prior to reaching beta or launch. The excitement had already been exhausted and anyone who was interested in playing had already tried it out.

The Crowfall Conundrum is one of the single best arguments against leaving a testing server up 24/7.

Noaani

Fiddlez wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

I can't say I've heard many game developers talk about participation trophies either.

Steven Shariff has mentioned no participation trophies multiple times.

Steven Shariff is not a game developer.

He has money, and so started up a game development company.

You take him and put him in a game developer jam, see how he does. Now take any of his game developer staff members and see how they do.

Having a business that does a thing does not make you a person that does that thing.

Fiddlez

Dygz wrote: »

Fiddlez wrote: »

The impression I get is you don't take anyone seriously. You are free to disagree but once someone tries to diminish anyone's else's opinion, in my experience there's only one reason someone does it and it's never good.

At this point, I really don't care what you, specifically, think or what your impressions are. You are probably the one person on the forums I absolutely do not take seriously.
That is how absurd I find your comment about creating a true MMORPG to be.

Go to 13:20 Episode 100 of Ashenforge with Steven Shariff and Steven does an excellent job of explaining this notion. You should have payed attention more of the role of an RPG.

acki02

Dygz wrote: »

I asked some of my pals who are currently working as game designers.
They said it's very uncommon to hear that.

"Participation trophies" are more of a philosophy than a "thing" that's widely talked about I think.

Also, out of curiosity, would you mind if I were to ask what titles/genres have your acquaintances worked on?

Dygz

Fiddlez wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Fiddlez wrote: »

The impression I get is you don't take anyone seriously. You are free to disagree but once someone tries to diminish anyone's else's opinion, in my experience there's only one reason someone does it and it's never good.

At this point, I really don't care what you, specifically, think or what your impressions are. You are probably the one person on the forums I absolutely do not take seriously.
That is how absurd I find your comment about creating a true MMORPG to be.

Go to 13:20 Episode 100 of Ashenforge with Steven Shariff and Steven does an excellent job of explaining this notion. You should have payed attention more of the role of an RPG.

Really, I need to put you on ignore.
You add nothing that I didn't already know before you jumped into the topic. You add nothing to counter what I've said.
I said what I said. And you can read that at the very top of this page. You should have paid attention to THAT.
Have some seats.

Fiddlez

Dygz wrote: »

Fiddlez wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Fiddlez wrote: »

The impression I get is you don't take anyone seriously. You are free to disagree but once someone tries to diminish anyone's else's opinion, in my experience there's only one reason someone does it and it's never good.

At this point, I really don't care what you, specifically, think or what your impressions are. You are probably the one person on the forums I absolutely do not take seriously.
That is how absurd I find your comment about creating a true MMORPG to be.

Go to 13:20 Episode 100 of Ashenforge with Steven Shariff and Steven does an excellent job of explaining this notion. You should have payed attention more of the role of an RPG.

Really, I need to put you on ignore.
You add nothing that I didn't already know before you jumped into the topic. You add nothing to counter what I've said.
I said what I said. And you can read that at the very top of this page. You should have paid attention to THAT.
Have some seats.

This is literally my topic/forum post. Also if you want to hear Steven speak about participation trophy same episode 17:54.

Just take a chill pill and stop being so emotionally invested in other people's viewpoint. Find a way to just disagree with out trying to diminish the person. Right now the better points I make just seem to make you even more upset.

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