Should most players simply avoid all processing artisan paths?

I mean if freeholds are an exclusive feature that only will be accessible for a tiny percentage of the player base, I think it would be pointless for a casual player or a player who simply has little game time to even attempt to begin on the processing artisan paths at all.... I mean why even bother if you are going to hit a dead end eventually? Is not like crafting because if you need T-5 ingredients you can simply save up money to eventually buy it, or organizing with a group to attempt the World boss that drops that item...that's something everyone can do...of course hardcore players would have it easier but a casual players with time a patience will get there eventually too.

But again because the Freeholds are such an exclusive commodity is fair to assume all freeholds will be owned at all times by the sweatiest nerds on the server who can afford to play 12h a day which allows them to outbid anyone who dares to attempt to get a freehold, basically keeping everybody else literally unable to access T5-6 processing stations.

No amount of time or dedication will allow a gamer dad with 5 wives and 10 dogs to outbid someone who simply has more play time than him.

So considering the system as we can see it right now, if you know you only will be able to play on weekends, or a couple hours per day, is there even a point on starting on the processing artisan paths at all?

I mean sure, you can get T1 to T4 items which is nice, but eventually you will hit max level and will need T5, T6 gear to play endgame content so being able to make those low tier items wont get you any further on your artisan path. Not to mention all those feelbad moments of "hey I got this ultra rare drop from this endgame boss...but I don't have a freehold so I can't make anything with it even though I decided to dedicate myself to an artisan path that uses this kind of items, I guess I'll sell it or whatever". At this point you are no longer an artisan because the content you will do won't give you anything to progress on your artisan path.

But yeah, unless something changes I think the best strategy for most players would be to avoid all processing paths and focus on crafting/ gathering since those would allow you to reach the endgame without being limited for not being part of the 10% of the population that can get a freehold.

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Dygz

Abarat wrote: »

it seems silly to argue, but that has not been my take on your stance... and I pay pretty close attention.

Of course, it is silly of you to argue with me.

daveywavey

Liniker wrote: »

iccer wrote: »

The only reason you are in favor of all of this, and why you don't think it's a dogshit design, is because you are the leader of a large guild, that will inevitably be able to achieve those things.

wrong

Not wrong. Every post you've made on the subject since the Freehold livestream came out has reeked of "self-entitled guild leader who has realised they're going to be one of the server's elite few and is trying to push that agenda as hard as they can".

Now, maybe that's not how you're feeling, or you haven't realised that's how you're really feeling, but that is exactly how you're coming across.

Just cos the current design is best for you, doesn't mean that it's best for the game or the playerbase.

Hopefully Alpha-2 will decide this point for us all nice and quickly, one way or the other.

Boneshatter

daveywavey wrote: »

Liniker wrote: »

iccer wrote: »

The only reason you are in favor of all of this, and why you don't think it's a dogshit design, is because you are the leader of a large guild, that will inevitably be able to achieve those things.

wrong

Not wrong. Every post you've made on the subject since the Freehold livestream came out has reeked of "self-entitled guild leader who has realised they're going to be one of the server's elite few and is trying to push that agenda as hard as they can".

Now, maybe that's not how you're feeling, or you haven't realised that's how you're really feeling, but that is exactly how you're coming across.

Just cos the current design is best for you, doesn't mean that it's best for the game or the playerbase.

Hopefully Alpha-2 will decide this point for us all nice and quickly, one way or the other.

Very well said.

However, I am concerned about saying we should wait for Alpha 2 on stuff like this. Alpha 2 will be great for testing the mechanical stuff, but I don't think it will do much to test the social systems because there simply won't be enough people there. 1-2 thousand people all capped at level 35 and focusing on testing whatever their personal focus happens to be aren't going to give us any insight on what the masses will do 6 months later.

Kionashi

Noaani wrote: »

Kionashi wrote: »

I mean if freeholds are an exclusive feature that only will be accessible for a tiny percentage of the player base, I think it would be pointless for a casual player or a player who simply has little game time to even attempt to begin on the processing artisan paths at all...

@Kionashi

I'm going to be super blunt here.

As someone that has been trying to advocate for Ashes to be a game that is at least accepting of more casual players on terms that said casual players would agree with, I have to say that anyone that would avoid processing due only to it's exclusivity based on the need for a freehold should probably simply avoind the game.

Not just processing. The game.

That is because the way the game is looking right now, processing isn't the only thing that will have that exclusivity to it, or will place players in direct competition with large guilds in order to simply function.

Being an absolute realist (something few on these forums ever try to be), if you are unable to get a freehold (or acceptable access to one), then you are likely to be unable to have access to other fairly major parts of the game.

It will simply be a case of your time is likely to be better spent in another game, or on another entertainment activity all together.

I don't mind not having access to some stuff for not being able to compete with large guilds, I don't mind I wont own a castle, I don't mind I won't ever be a major of a node, I don't care not having a flying mount, hell, I don't even care if I can't get a freehold/own a tavern. But again, we are not talking about extra stuff that give the player some level of prestige for their dedication, we are talking about capping the progression of something as basic as your artisan path I just don't think that's good for anybody.

daveywavey

Kionashi wrote: »

we are talking about capping the progression of something as basic as your artisan path I just don't think that's good for anybody.

It does seem pretty odd, doesn't it. I can only assume that they've become worried that there won't be enough node sieges, and they're trying to artificially force it.

Liniker

daveywavey wrote: »

Not wrong. Every post you've made on the subject since the Freehold livestream came out has reeked of "self-entitled guild leader who has realised they're going to be one of the server's elite few and is trying to push that agenda as hard as they can".

@daveywavey You can hate me all you want, but what I say doesn't mean shit, I'm not the one making the game, Steven is and...

if you don't like guild leaders that are used to being elite, and if you think a guild leader of a massive +2000 member zerg that likes exclusivity, PvP and hardcore/oldschool design - funding his own MMORPG and even getting Multiple of his own guild mates to be part of the development is a bad idea...

well... I'm sorry but I have bad news for you xD

but hey, you do you, maybe if you spam feedback with 80 alt accounts you gonna change Steven's mind, and he is gonna stop making his dream MMO to make something most casual/solo players that hate players like him will enjoy, GL

insomnia

Depraved wrote: »

the gamer dad with 5 wives isnt gonna get most things in games where there is competition

have you heard the phrase "exaggeration to prove a point". I don't even think the average player will be able to get it. It seems unrealistic for some normal person, with a full time job/school. Maybe doing some sports. Doing stuff around the home. Not using all your free time on this single game. One might also want to see friends, family. Some have a partner they want to spend time with. Maybe watch a movie or a show every now and then. It feels like, it's for the people that just play the game 24/7

Noaani

Liniker wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

Not wrong. Every post you've made on the subject since the Freehold livestream came out has reeked of "self-entitled guild leader who has realised they're going to be one of the server's elite few and is trying to push that agenda as hard as they can".

if you don't like guild leaders that are used to being elite, and if you think a guild leader of a massive +2000 member zerg that likes exclusivity, PvP and hardcore/oldschool design - funding his own MMORPG and even getting Multiple of his own guild mates to be part of the development is a bad idea...

well... I'm sorry but I have bad news for you xD

While I don't want to put words in Daveys mouth, I think his post was as much meant as a warning of sorts.

Ashes is currently being designed from the top up. Intrepid are looking at the game they want top end players to have, and then stripping portions of it out in the name of "exclusivity" and stating that anyone that wants those things without working for them are wanting "participation trophies".

Steven is doing this because that has always been his perspective of MMO's. It has also been the more senior members of his guilds perspective - because they just do what ever Steven says.

The problem is, it isn't the senior members of guilds that pay for the games subscriptions. It is everyone else.

As some point - and I think this may have been what Davey was getting at - Intrepid will need to look at the game from the perspective of the casual player.

When they do, they will realize they have fucked up.

When they realize that, the game will change.

The only question is - will they realize this before or after release?

You started a thread a while ago asking what Ashes biggest problem might be. Your opinion is that it's biggest problem will essentially be the voices of those paying the bulk of the subscriptions whom together might be able to have enough of an impact on the gameplay of the top few percent as to put a small dent in their experience, in exchange for a game that may actually be worth playing to that bulk. That is what you think the biggest issue is.

In reality, the biggest issue is that Intrepid is developing the game without taking that bulk perspective in to account first, developing the game for them, fully fleshing out that gameplay experience, and then adding to it for top end players.

Basically, Intrepid are trying to build the roof before they build the foundation.

Liniker

Noaani wrote: »

In reality, the biggest issue is that Intrepid is developing the game without taking that bulk perspective in to account first, developing the game for them, fully fleshing out that gameplay experience, and then adding to it for top end players.

Basically, Intrepid are trying to build the roof before they build the foundation.

So, what game development experience do you have?

I read the shit you say like I'm listening to a drunk hillbilly at a bar sharing his opinion on politics or aliens, at least it's entertaining I will give you that.

Noaani

Liniker wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

In reality, the biggest issue is that Intrepid is developing the game without taking that bulk perspective in to account first, developing the game for them, fully fleshing out that gameplay experience, and then adding to it for top end players.

Basically, Intrepid are trying to build the roof before they build the foundation.

So, what game development experience do you have?

I read the shit you say like I'm listening to a drunk hillbilly at a bar sharing his opinion on politics or aliens, at least it's entertaining I will give you that.

I have well over a decade of experience in software development, and multiple decades of product development in other fields. Games aren't such a unique product that the basics don't hold true.

The problem for you is - as soon as you read that post, you knew immediately that I was right.

Abarat

Liniker wrote: »

like I'm listening to a drunk hillbilly at a bar sharing his opinion on politics or aliens.

This accurately describes some of my best friends, what you are referring to is much worse.

Abarat

Noaani wrote: »

Ashes is currently being designed from the top up.

Basically, Intrepid are trying to build the roof before they build the foundation.

This is pretty confusing. NO, I dont want you to clarify. Just saying.

Its just nonsense. Do you think what we are seeing and hearing from the studio is even close to enough information for you to make broad, sweeping generalizations like this?

It does not make you sound smart.. it makes you sound a bit kooky.

Noaani

Abarat wrote: »

Do you think what we are seeing and hearing from the studio is even close to enough information for you to make broad, sweeping generalizations like this?

Yes, I do.

My comment is exactly how the development process of the game appears to be going.

The thing is, you probably want the above to be the case, because it is better than the alternative. That alternative being that Intrepid are indeed putting a lot of thought in to the experience of players that are not at the top end.

Intrepid have no excuse to not realize that the above is how many players see the game. Ever since the naval PvP/corruption situation, they simply must have known that is how development is perceived.

So, either Intrepid are developing the game in a way where the more casual player is taken care of, know there are many people out there that want to hear about this and yet refuse to talk about it, or they are not developing the game with those people on mind and so cant talk about it.

The issue being a problem in development seems to me to be the better (and more likely) option than Intrepid develooing yet simply not talking about these aspects.

I mean, are you attempting to argue that the game as we currently know it is indeed friendly to people not in large, organized guilds?

Call me "kooky" if you like,but if a game doesnt appear to be friendly towards the low end,then either the game is not being developed to be friendly towards the low end,or the messaging from the developer really sucks, and said messaging is basically inaccurate.

It either is as Intrepid have told us, or it isnt as Intrepid have told us. I'm opting to assume it is as Intrepid have told us - that is basically all

If you would rather assume that their messaging is so far off from their development that the game actually would look acceptable to a more casual player, you are welcome to assume that. The issue there is that means you cant assume you know anything about the game at all

George_Black

This game isnt trying to catter to everyone.

It doesnt get any clearer than that. It's your fault noani for not comming to terms with it.

Ashes of creations says "we are opening soon. Come and have a look" and amongst these lines there is PROMOTION GOING ON.

The game isn't for everyone.
There will be risks in order for rewards to be meaningful.
It will be challenging unlike the garbage mmos out there currently.

The game isnt for everyone.
The spell it out for you. The writting is on the wall.
Stop splitting hairs and try to take a high moral ground or pretend that you are better than a PROFESSIONAL STUDIO WORKING WITH REAL MONEY, just because you type a rew essays in a forum.

The game never tried to hide it's identity.

Feel free to try to come up with alternative definitions of what casual is, what pvx is, what mmo is, in order to measure (from a ralse reference point) the deviations from the core pillars, but we, seeing from day one that Steven is pro L2 mmo mentality and against wow ff14 eso garbage we knew who this game is for.

It's not for everyone and it WONT CHANGE FOR ANYONE.
Not for money, not for more players, not to avoid hurting peoples feelings or sense of entitlement (backer skins and other nonsense like that).

If all you are gonna do is say they lied, they confuse people, they will lose people stop typing. Just stop typing your entless petty walltexts.

The game is not for everyone.
Here let me NOT sugarcoat it for you like they do on livestreams (because they are professionals that dont want to be labelled as aggressive like I have been):
The game is not for casuals. No matter how much money or ppl they will lose

Abarat

Noaani wrote: »

I mean, are you attempting to argue that the game as we currently know it is indeed friendly to people not in large, organized guilds?

I am successfully making the argument that we do not know nearly enough about the game in its totality to state anything as fact. And, even if it is a current fact, the game is not done.

I get you have a CONCERN. to present it as anything but a concern, since NO ONE has played the game, we don't understand the crafting, processing, leveling, gear progression, economic outlook, scope of things for casuals to do, etc., is significantly disingenuous to me... to the point of bordering on dishonest.

You are taking a slice of things and have a concern. That's good. Bringing that up is good.

Stating things as ABSOLUTE fact makes you kooky. Even you admit your opinion is based upon the way things "appear" (this suggests that even you at some level admit you do not know the real story) to be going... that is a long distance from the absolute declarations you are making. Recently, a streamer has said he is taking a break from the game... according to him, he got a little too close to the development process.. I might humbly suggest the same for you.

CROW3

Abarat wrote: »

Liniker wrote: »

like I'm listening to a drunk hillbilly at a bar sharing his opinion on politics or aliens.

This accurately describes some of my best friends, what you are referring to is much worse.

@Liniker - is there a better slang for caipira bêbado?

Depraved

Noaani wrote: »

Liniker wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

In reality, the biggest issue is that Intrepid is developing the game without taking that bulk perspective in to account first, developing the game for them, fully fleshing out that gameplay experience, and then adding to it for top end players.

Basically, Intrepid are trying to build the roof before they build the foundation.

So, what game development experience do you have?

I read the shit you say like I'm listening to a drunk hillbilly at a bar sharing his opinion on politics or aliens, at least it's entertaining I will give you that.

I have well over a decade of experience in software development, and multiple decades of product development in other fields. Games aren't such a unique product that the basics don't hold true.

The problem for you is - as soon as you read that post, you knew immediately that I was right.

manager != programmer && manager != designer

Azherae

Depraved wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Liniker wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

In reality, the biggest issue is that Intrepid is developing the game without taking that bulk perspective in to account first, developing the game for them, fully fleshing out that gameplay experience, and then adding to it for top end players.

Basically, Intrepid are trying to build the roof before they build the foundation.

So, what game development experience do you have?

I read the shit you say like I'm listening to a drunk hillbilly at a bar sharing his opinion on politics or aliens, at least it's entertaining I will give you that.

I have well over a decade of experience in software development, and multiple decades of product development in other fields. Games aren't such a unique product that the basics don't hold true.

The problem for you is - as soon as you read that post, you knew immediately that I was right.

manager != programmer && manager != designer

This is the first mention of the term 'manager' on this page.

Did you mean something else?

Depraved

Azherae wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Liniker wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

In reality, the biggest issue is that Intrepid is developing the game without taking that bulk perspective in to account first, developing the game for them, fully fleshing out that gameplay experience, and then adding to it for top end players.

Basically, Intrepid are trying to build the roof before they build the foundation.

So, what game development experience do you have?

I read the shit you say like I'm listening to a drunk hillbilly at a bar sharing his opinion on politics or aliens, at least it's entertaining I will give you that.

I have well over a decade of experience in software development, and multiple decades of product development in other fields. Games aren't such a unique product that the basics don't hold true.

The problem for you is - as soon as you read that post, you knew immediately that I was right.

manager != programmer && manager != designer

This is the first mention of the term 'manager' on this page.

Did you mean something else?

he has stated before that he is a manager. probably the type of manager who forces his programmers not to write tests, because writing tests = writing more code, and writing more code = more time, and more time = more money.

Azherae

Depraved wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Liniker wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

In reality, the biggest issue is that Intrepid is developing the game without taking that bulk perspective in to account first, developing the game for them, fully fleshing out that gameplay experience, and then adding to it for top end players.

Basically, Intrepid are trying to build the roof before they build the foundation.

So, what game development experience do you have?

I read the shit you say like I'm listening to a drunk hillbilly at a bar sharing his opinion on politics or aliens, at least it's entertaining I will give you that.

I have well over a decade of experience in software development, and multiple decades of product development in other fields. Games aren't such a unique product that the basics don't hold true.

The problem for you is - as soon as you read that post, you knew immediately that I was right.

manager != programmer && manager != designer

This is the first mention of the term 'manager' on this page.

Did you mean something else?

he has stated before that he is a manager

I'll save Noaani the trouble then...

Assuming Noaani is a manager right now has nothing to do with those two things. I've been all three at the same time professionally, I'm sometimes all three now.

So you can probably just drop this line of... whatever it is, and go back to finding a way to discredit the thing he actually said.

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