Nerror wrote: » There is also farming and animal husbandry that are very unlikely to be able to be done to any great extent outside a freehold. A few potted tomato plants in an apartment isn't going to satisfy people who want to farm. And there are other businesses than a tavern obviously, selling goods and services, and from what it sounds like so far, I think the taverns and businesses are casual friendly to run, just not to acquire.
Nerror wrote: » Finally, we still need some confirmation about the whole journeyman/lvl 30 thing Steven was talking about. If it really ends up being so you can only do up to lvl 30 processing stuff in nodes, that just makes it worse. In Eve Online, the T1 stuff is still very useful late-game because of the cost-efficiency, accessibility or niche applications. I hope the low level stuff in Ashes is also very useful late-game.
Zipp_Adoudel wrote: » getting on an instanced freehold to farm, and selling your goods, you aren't a person that is contributing to the community.
Zipp_Adoudel wrote: » If you arent contributing to the MMO, why play the game. It seems like you are going to Ford and complaining that the f350 cant fly.
Azherae wrote: » NiKr Nerror is it worth me putting effort into getting more data here, or are you two good?
NiKr wrote: » Azherae wrote: » NiKr Nerror is it worth me putting effort into getting more data here, or are you two good? I feel like there'd be not that much point.
Azherae wrote: » Zipp_Adoudel wrote: » If you arent contributing to the MMO, why play the game. It seems like you are going to Ford and complaining that the f350 cant fly. Hm...@NiKr @Nerror is it worth me putting effort into getting more data here, or are you two good?
Zipp_Adoudel wrote: » At the end of the day, you can cry wolf and complain that casuals cant do everything. Giving everyone a trophy just because they log in doesnt make for a sustainable game. Making choices matter, does. Making things hard to get, does. NiKr wrote: » Azherae wrote: » NiKr Nerror is it worth me putting effort into getting more data here, or are you two good? I feel like there'd be not that much point. Azherae wrote: » Zipp_Adoudel wrote: » If you arent contributing to the MMO, why play the game. It seems like you are going to Ford and complaining that the f350 cant fly. Hm...@NiKr @Nerror is it worth me putting effort into getting more data here, or are you two good? You arent changing my mind on this. I dont need to change yours. I was mearly pointing out that keeping freeholds scarce is a good thing.
NiKr wrote: » Nerror wrote: » There is also farming and animal husbandry that are very unlikely to be able to be done to any great extent outside a freehold. A few potted tomato plants in an apartment isn't going to satisfy people who want to farm. And there are other businesses than a tavern obviously, selling goods and services, and from what it sounds like so far, I think the taverns and businesses are casual friendly to run, just not to acquire. Having a cow or just a few plants sounds exactly the kind of casual application of the, potentially, industrial-sized freehold operations. As for businesses and sales - stalls and shops. Iirc those can be accessed somewhat easily. And they could be considered the casual version of "providing services to other players", though still kinda different from taverns.
NiKr wrote: » Nerror wrote: » Finally, we still need some confirmation about the whole journeyman/lvl 30 thing Steven was talking about. If it really ends up being so you can only do up to lvl 30 processing stuff in nodes, that just makes it worse. In Eve Online, the T1 stuff is still very useful late-game because of the cost-efficiency, accessibility or niche applications. I hope the low level stuff in Ashes is also very useful late-game. And L2 had uses for low tier mats and afaik SWG had that kind of design for their crafting system as well. So casuals could still make their relative profits w/o going up in tiers. It always comes down to ambitions and ability to meet them. As long as t3 processing in a node can take up 1-2h of gameplay - majority of casual processors should be ok with it.
Nerror wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Nerror wrote: » There is also farming and animal husbandry that are very unlikely to be able to be done to any great extent outside a freehold. A few potted tomato plants in an apartment isn't going to satisfy people who want to farm. And there are other businesses than a tavern obviously, selling goods and services, and from what it sounds like so far, I think the taverns and businesses are casual friendly to run, just not to acquire. Having a cow or just a few plants sounds exactly the kind of casual application of the, potentially, industrial-sized freehold operations. As for businesses and sales - stalls and shops. Iirc those can be accessed somewhat easily. And they could be considered the casual version of "providing services to other players", though still kinda different from taverns. That sounds like something for the ultra-ultra-casuals with maybe 10 minutes per day to play, including waiting for the game to lead. You don't breed "a cow". You don't farm 5 tomato plants, wipe the sweat off your brow and call it a hard, honest days work. This is why I am advocating for something in the middle, like the old freehold sizes, or even smaller houses with a little land. Multi-tiered access, instead of all or nothing. NiKr wrote: » Nerror wrote: » Finally, we still need some confirmation about the whole journeyman/lvl 30 thing Steven was talking about. If it really ends up being so you can only do up to lvl 30 processing stuff in nodes, that just makes it worse. In Eve Online, the T1 stuff is still very useful late-game because of the cost-efficiency, accessibility or niche applications. I hope the low level stuff in Ashes is also very useful late-game. And L2 had uses for low tier mats and afaik SWG had that kind of design for their crafting system as well. So casuals could still make their relative profits w/o going up in tiers. It always comes down to ambitions and ability to meet them. As long as t3 processing in a node can take up 1-2h of gameplay - majority of casual processors should be ok with it. We'll have to see how low-level mats fit into it all. I hope they are important late-game. If not, casual processors will not be happy I am pretty sure.
Zipp_Adoudel wrote: » At the end of the day, you can cry wolf and complain that casuals cant do everything. Giving everyone a trophy just because they log in doesnt make for a sustainable game.
Azherae wrote: » Nerror wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Nerror wrote: » There is also farming and animal husbandry that are very unlikely to be able to be done to any great extent outside a freehold. A few potted tomato plants in an apartment isn't going to satisfy people who want to farm. And there are other businesses than a tavern obviously, selling goods and services, and from what it sounds like so far, I think the taverns and businesses are casual friendly to run, just not to acquire. Having a cow or just a few plants sounds exactly the kind of casual application of the, potentially, industrial-sized freehold operations. As for businesses and sales - stalls and shops. Iirc those can be accessed somewhat easily. And they could be considered the casual version of "providing services to other players", though still kinda different from taverns. That sounds like something for the ultra-ultra-casuals with maybe 10 minutes per day to play, including waiting for the game to lead. You don't breed "a cow". You don't farm 5 tomato plants, wipe the sweat off your brow and call it a hard, honest days work. This is why I am advocating for something in the middle, like the old freehold sizes, or even smaller houses with a little land. Multi-tiered access, instead of all or nothing. NiKr wrote: » Nerror wrote: » Finally, we still need some confirmation about the whole journeyman/lvl 30 thing Steven was talking about. If it really ends up being so you can only do up to lvl 30 processing stuff in nodes, that just makes it worse. In Eve Online, the T1 stuff is still very useful late-game because of the cost-efficiency, accessibility or niche applications. I hope the low level stuff in Ashes is also very useful late-game. And L2 had uses for low tier mats and afaik SWG had that kind of design for their crafting system as well. So casuals could still make their relative profits w/o going up in tiers. It always comes down to ambitions and ability to meet them. As long as t3 processing in a node can take up 1-2h of gameplay - majority of casual processors should be ok with it. We'll have to see how low-level mats fit into it all. I hope they are important late-game. If not, casual processors will not be happy I am pretty sure. I'm gonna be obnoxiously arrogant here and point out that you're both having a conversation that is too speculative AND far enough below the level of concreteness required for anything that you're wasting your own time. The OP gave a layman's argument for a part of the game they don't even consider important and ended up causing you to operate on the same level in discussion. We've got better things to do in like 10m, namely arguing over how poorly/amazingly the Cleric is implemented. I personally hope that loss of HP, limitations via debuffs, and scarcity of Mana are all key points.
Nerror wrote: » Zipp_Adoudel wrote: » At the end of the day, you can cry wolf and complain that casuals cant do everything. Giving everyone a trophy just because they log in doesnt make for a sustainable game. Oh god, you too with the strawman arguments. People aren't asking for that.
Nerror wrote: » That sounds like something for the ultra-ultra-casuals with maybe 10 minutes per day to play, including waiting for the game to lead. You don't breed "a cow". You don't farm 5 tomato plants, wipe the sweat off your brow and call it a hard, honest days work. This is why I am advocating for something in the middle, like the old freehold sizes, or even smaller houses with a little land. Multi-tiered access, instead of all or nothing.
Zipp_Adoudel wrote: » Are you guys upset that casuals and most players will never get flying mounts? Are you up in arms that casuals will not get guild perks unless they join a guild? I'm making the assumption that they wouldn't be able to level up the guild enough to matter.
Zipp_Adoudel wrote: » Nerror wrote: » Zipp_Adoudel wrote: » At the end of the day, you can cry wolf and complain that casuals cant do everything. Giving everyone a trophy just because they log in doesnt make for a sustainable game. Oh god, you too with the strawman arguments. People aren't asking for that. I dont think that means what you think it means.
A straw man fallacy (sometimes written as strawman) is the informal fallacy of refuting an argument different from the one actually under discussion, while not recognizing or acknowledging the distinction.
Percimes wrote: » Hmm, it's been a while since people fought over semantic...
Azherae wrote: » I'm gonna be obnoxiously arrogant here and point out that you're both having a conversation that is too speculative AND far enough below the level of concreteness required for anything that you're wasting your own time.
Zipp_Adoudel wrote: » The whole point of this is that loss and scarcity shouldn't push people away.
