PvE Players tell me why you follow Ashes of Creation

Doesn't matter if the first time you saw Ashes was in kickstarter, or just learned of the project 2 weeks ago.

As a PvE first player, what makes you look forward to PvE in AoC or what was the defining feature that you're looking forward to?

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Dygz

(Those aren't even 2 examples, really)
I think that is how I originally understood PvX.
But, I now consider Steven's vision of PvX to mean that, as much as possible, PvE and PvP are 100% fused.
Which, for me, is more PvP than on an EQ/EQ2/WoW PvP server. And even an EQ/EQ2/WoW PvP-Optional server is too much PvP for me to feel comfortable.

Which is why it's counter-productive when I ask Steven if Ashes is PvP-centric -because EvE and ArcheAge are too PvP-centric for me- for Steven to answer: "Ashes is not PvP-centric, Ashes is PvX."
Especially with his follow-up that Corruption should make Ashes PvP comfortable for players who typically focus on PvE.

Dygz

mcstackerson wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

The issue with what want is the rewards. Not only is there no risk in the rewards but more importantly, by being easier to acquire (because of the decreased risk), It devalues all the rewards in the world, especially those with less power and/or value.

Pvp has no rewards on it's own. All the rewards from it come from what you choose to fight over so by devaluing the rewards from the world, you are devaluing the PVP.

To be honest, I disagree with your entire premise here.

The value of any reward in the game is directly tied to the time spent to get it including any PvP, not just on the PvP.

I'm not sure what you mean. You seem to be implying that the more time it takes to get something, the more value it has which is false. Yes, more valuable things usually take longer to acquire but the more time it takes to acquire something doesn't increase it's value. If i auto-attack a boss to death, it's not going to drop more valuable loot because i took longer to kill it.

Yes... and this is another example of Reward = Loot.

What originally attracted me to Ashes was the example of the Winter Dragon that causes a perpetual WInter across the Region until the Winter Dragon is killed. The Risk of failing/dying is high in small groups -even with a few Raids or a few Guilds- which means that rivals will have to work together to rid the threat the WInter Dragon poses.
The true Reward is ending the perpetual Winter. And that goal should have enough primacy for everyone in the Region to set aside rivalries until the Winter Dragon is slain.
Sure... if I do 5% of the damage to the Winter Dragon, I hope to gain at least a Dragon Scale for my contribution to ending the threat, but the actual Reward is that we can finally move on to the resources avalilable during Spring and we can rebuild the Node services disabled by the Perpetual Winter.

I think Noanni and his Community are hoping to hear more about those kinds of events... epic PvE battles where PvP is unlikely to interfere. (Though, I think they would expect to among those dealing most of the damage since they are top-end raiders.)
But, what we've come to learn bit by bit in the past year is that Steven believes that such a battle would not have sufficient adrenaline rush without the "Risk" of PvP also being high.

So... it's not really about hating PvP.
It's realizing after 5 years... that PvP is intended to be inextricably tied to everything.
Because, for Steven, PvE is not fun without the adrenaline rush PvP provides.

Vyril

Dygz wrote: »

Vyril wrote: »

PvE and PvP content intertwined.

Describe 3 examples of PvE content and PvP content intertwined in Ashes of Creation game design.

I'll share 3 of my original expectations:
Node Sieges in order to ensure a Metro that allows my Race to complete Racial progression.
Caravan defense and Caravan attacks in prep for Castle Sieges.
And... some Ashes of CReation version of...
"If I have to kill dryads to siphon their Life magic and convert it into Shadow energy which powers the Stealth abilities for my Rogue... any player characters who try to stop me from killing dryads will just have to die!!"

mcstackerson wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Vyril wrote: »

PvE and PvP content intertwined.

Describe 3 examples of PvE content and PvP content intertwined in Ashes of Creation game design.

You need to PvE to increase your character's power which you need for PVP and Pvp is a tool you can use to control PvE content. Not 3 but I'm sure you could find some way to break it down.

McStackerson has a good summary, not every aspect has to be a literal 1 to 1 outcome.

I'll give what I look forward too for a direct PvX interaction.

I'm gathering, player attacks me, I kill them and then likely teabag them for attacking me and losing.
I'm in a party with friends, farming a dungeon, another group rolls up to attack us, we ensue in an epic battle in the dungeon to defend our farming spot for crafting materials to make better gear.
Be involved in a node war, to defend the storage coffers of the goods we have collected.
Sail the open seas traversing materials across the dangerous waters in hopes of riches that lay waiting in another economy.

mcstackerson

Dygz wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

The issue with what want is the rewards. Not only is there no risk in the rewards but more importantly, by being easier to acquire (because of the decreased risk), It devalues all the rewards in the world, especially those with less power and/or value.

Pvp has no rewards on it's own. All the rewards from it come from what you choose to fight over so by devaluing the rewards from the world, you are devaluing the PVP.

To be honest, I disagree with your entire premise here.

The value of any reward in the game is directly tied to the time spent to get it including any PvP, not just on the PvP.

I'm not sure what you mean. You seem to be implying that the more time it takes to get something, the more value it has which is false. Yes, more valuable things usually take longer to acquire but the more time it takes to acquire something doesn't increase it's value. If i auto-attack a boss to death, it's not going to drop more valuable loot because i took longer to kill it.

Yes... and this is another example of Reward = Loot.

What originally attracted me to Ashes was the example of the Winter Dragon that causes a perpetual WInter across the Region until the Winter Dragon is killed. The Risk of failing/dying is high in small groups -even with a few Raids or a few Guilds- which means that rivals will have to work together to rid the threat the WInter Dragon poses.
The true Reward is ending the perpetual Winter. And that goal should have enough primacy for everyone in the Region to set aside rivalries until the Winter Dragon is slain.
Sure... if I do 5% of the damage to the Winter Dragon, I hope to gain at least a Dragon Scale for my contribution to ending the threat, but the actual Reward is that we can finally move on to the resources avalilable during Spring and we can rebuild the Node services disabled by the Perpetual Winter.

I think Noanni and his Community are hoping to hear more about those kinds of events... epic PvE battles where PvP is unlikely to interfere. (Though, I think they would expect to among those dealing most of the damage since they are top-end raiders.)
But, what we've come to learn bit by bit in the past year is that Steven believes that such a battle would not have sufficient adrenaline rush without the "Risk" of PvP also being high.

So... it's not really about hating PvP.
It's realizing after 5 years... that PvP is intended to be inextricably tied to everything.
Because, for Steven, PvE is not fun without the adrenaline rush PvP provides.

Noanni said earlier in the thread what they want, they want enough instanced content to fill a 3 day raid week and i was pointed out how rewards from that content would impact the rewards in the world.

Just because pvp can happen everywhere doesn't mean it will or is intended to. The Pvp element of the game isn't about making the encounter itself fun. PvE content serves as potential objectives for PVP so if anything, it's the other way around.

Dygz

mcstackerson wrote: »

Noanni said earlier in the thread what they want, they want enough instanced content to fill a 3 day raid week and i was pointed out how rewards from that content would impact the rewards in the world.

Just because pvp can happen everywhere doesn't mean it will or is intended to. The Pvp element of the game isn't about making the encounter itself fun. PvE content serves as potential objectives for PVP so if anything, it's the other way around.

Haha!
I can see that they might think instanced content is the only answer.
Seems like that's unlikely to be the way Ashes attempts to support a community like Noanni's.

Every time Steven talks about Risk v Reward - he focuses on the adrenaline rush from PvP.
Anything of value feels more like a worthy accomplishment if you had to fight and win against other players to achieve. Both Steven and Margaret talk about how all their most memorable moments are their accomplishments from PvP.
Even Freeholds - Margaret regales about the pride people will have knowing they have the Freehold that survived PvP the longest.
So... while the rush of adrenaline being present in every encounter may not be a goal for you as player - it appears to be a goal of Steven's. As much as possible, he want's Risk v Reward to be a core pillar of every aspect of the game.
And when Steven talk about Risk v Reward, he means PvP. Also, typically the Rewards he talks about equals Loot (Resources); not "objectives".
(I think Steven's vision of PvP being ubiquotous is not limited to PvP combat - which is why he hopes everyone will be contemplating economic warfare everytime they choose which bags to take when they leave to go out Gathering.)

Noaani

mcstackerson wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

The issue with what want is the rewards. Not only is there no risk in the rewards but more importantly, by being easier to acquire (because of the decreased risk), It devalues all the rewards in the world, especially those with less power and/or value.

Pvp has no rewards on it's own. All the rewards from it come from what you choose to fight over so by devaluing the rewards from the world, you are devaluing the PVP.

To be honest, I disagree with your entire premise here.

The value of any reward in the game is directly tied to the time spent to get it including any PvP, not just on the PvP.

I'm not sure what you mean. You seem to be implying that the more time it takes to get something, the more value it has which is false. Yes, more valuable things usually take longer to acquire but the more time it takes to acquire something doesn't increase it's value. If i auto-attack a boss to death, it's not going to drop more valuable loot because i took longer to kill it.

While this is true, it is also true that if I fight you for a boss, it isnt going to drop better gear. It may be that if I fight you for it, you dont get any gear and I do, but if you just auto attack a boss you wont get any either.

Again, time is the only thing players put in to an MMO, this is the baseline. You need to put time in to getting geared up, time in to learning your class, your role in a raid, and the encounter itself, then you can spend time working to kill the encounter.

If I am working on an open world encounter and you are trying to stop me, you are spending your time in order to prevent me getting the rewards I was after by spending my time on that boss.

If I go out harvesting and you attack me, you are risking your time via PvP and potential corruption in order to take the results of the time I spent harvesting.

Spending time on something isnt always a guarantee, but time is the only thing we have to spend.

If I take something from you in PvP, you have three options to get it back. Spend time fighting me for it, spend time earning gold to buy it, or spend time to get a new one.

It literally all comes down to spending time.

That doesnt mean we can increase our rewards for time spent by working slowly, all that amounts to is an inefficient use of time.

Dygz

Vyril wrote: »

I'm gathering, player attacks me, I kill them and then likely teabag them for attacking me and losing.

I'm in a party with friends, farming a dungeon, another group rolls up to attack us, we ensue in an epic battle in the dungeon to defend our farming spot for crafting materials to make better gear.

Be involved in a node war, to defend the storage coffers of the goods we have collected.

I think everyone who posts frequently in the Forums has always been OK with your first three examples:

Gathering in areas where Corruption is active.
80% of Dungeons are open world. (Noaani's group wants to be able to thrive in the 20% of Dungeons that are instanced.)
Node Wars.

So... yes.. these are all examples of my original concept of PvX. All of the above fit within my comfort zone.

Open Seas is a signifcant change to the game design as of 1 year ago...
So that is not included in what was originally presented as PvX.
I would now say that Steven's vision of PvX is that everything a player does has the potential to include PvP. And there really isn't a need to mention the reverse for PvE because the foundation of RPGs is that RPGs are PvE.

Noaani

mcstackerson wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

The issue with what want is the rewards. Not only is there no risk in the rewards but more importantly, by being easier to acquire (because of the decreased risk), It devalues all the rewards in the world, especially those with less power and/or value.

Pvp has no rewards on it's own. All the rewards from it come from what you choose to fight over so by devaluing the rewards from the world, you are devaluing the PVP.

To be honest, I disagree with your entire premise here.

The value of any reward in the game is directly tied to the time spent to get it including any PvP, not just on the PvP.

I'm not sure what you mean. You seem to be implying that the more time it takes to get something, the more value it has which is false. Yes, more valuable things usually take longer to acquire but the more time it takes to acquire something doesn't increase it's value. If i auto-attack a boss to death, it's not going to drop more valuable loot because i took longer to kill it.

Yes... and this is another example of Reward = Loot.

What originally attracted me to Ashes was the example of the Winter Dragon that causes a perpetual WInter across the Region until the Winter Dragon is killed. The Risk of failing/dying is high in small groups -even with a few Raids or a few Guilds- which means that rivals will have to work together to rid the threat the WInter Dragon poses.
The true Reward is ending the perpetual Winter. And that goal should have enough primacy for everyone in the Region to set aside rivalries until the Winter Dragon is slain.
Sure... if I do 5% of the damage to the Winter Dragon, I hope to gain at least a Dragon Scale for my contribution to ending the threat, but the actual Reward is that we can finally move on to the resources avalilable during Spring and we can rebuild the Node services disabled by the Perpetual Winter.

I think Noanni and his Community are hoping to hear more about those kinds of events... epic PvE battles where PvP is unlikely to interfere. (Though, I think they would expect to among those dealing most of the damage since they are top-end raiders.)
But, what we've come to learn bit by bit in the past year is that Steven believes that such a battle would not have sufficient adrenaline rush without the "Risk" of PvP also being high.

So... it's not really about hating PvP.
It's realizing after 5 years... that PvP is intended to be inextricably tied to everything.
Because, for Steven, PvE is not fun without the adrenaline rush PvP provides.

Noanni said earlier in the thread what they want, they want enough instanced content to fill a 3 day raid week and i was pointed out how rewards from that content would impact the rewards in the world.

Keep in mind, the kind of encounters I am talking about would see top guilds spent 3,000+ combined hours working on the content before getting any rewards. This comes in the form of an expected minimum of 500 attempts to kill before the first successful kill (kind of the entry point to top end content), 10 minutes of time per kill, and 40 people in the raid at a time.

500*10*40=200,000 minutes (3,333 hours) with no reward.

The notion of having top end content in an MMO is a different calculation to what most P vP players are used to seeing, but making claims such as there being no risk is off the mark. If nothing else, the risk is the opportunity cost of that 3,333 hours of time spent. This in itself would make an instanced encounter like what I am talking about the highest risk activity in a game like Ashes - and that is before you consider the suggestions I have made for adding PvP back to the situation

Dygz

Well, I mean... also if the raid is fighting that boss as Non-Combatants, it's normal death penalties.
If the raid is fighting that boss as Combatants, it's half-normal death penalties.
So... it's more "Risk" attempting to complete that dungeon as Non-Combatants than it is as Combatants.

I think Noaani doesn't want to waste more time being distracted from defeating the boss by other players who love PvP.

George_Black

Dygz wrote: »

Well, I mean... also if the raid is fighting that boss as Non-Combatants, it's normal death penalties.
If the raid is fighting that boss as Combatants, it's half-normal death penalties.
So... it's more Risk attempting to complete that dungeon as Non-Combatants than it is as Combatants.

.....?

George_Black

Yall still try to find definitions?

Dygz

The Devil is in the details.

George_Black

So you are saying that people could go on a raid and bring a character out of party (because you cant flag on your group, and you cant flag without attacking a player), and then the whole raid should attack that character every 90s, have a healer grouped with that character to make sure nobody goes red by accident, INSTEAD of focusing on bringing down the boss, AND leave themselves open to CC from rival players that could show up, BECAUSE it's good to plan for failure (less xp debt while purple)?

Tell me about more devilishly details so we can make this a 40page thread of unrealistic scenarios and definitions.

Dygz

You are the one who said that.

George_Black

Dygz wrote: »

You are the one who said that.

You were the one that assumed it would lower the risk...

Dygz wrote: »

Well, I mean... also if the raid is fighting that boss as Non-Combatants, it's normal death penalties.
If the raid is fighting that boss as Combatants, it's half-normal death penalties.
So... it's more "Risk" attempting to complete that dungeon as Non-Combatants than it is as Combatants.

I think Noaani doesn't want to waste more time being distracted from defeating the boss by other players who love PvP.

Your words.

Dygz

That's just your demented mind trying to re-interpret what I wrote.

Kotter

i'm mostly a PvE player, but it's nice there's some PvP to jump into also.

Abarat

Dygz wrote: »

The Devil is in the details.

@Dygz have you been part of a fight with an open world raid boss while engaging in pvp?

Dygz

Yes.
What's the real question?

Noaani

Abarat wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

The Devil is in the details.

Dygz have you been part of a fight with an open world raid boss while engaging in pvp?

I doubt many regular posters here havent.

I have a question for you though, have you taken on a fight with an open world raid boss designed for PvP to be a factor, but when there was no PvP?

I have.

Killed the boss with 400 people and PvP from two other factions. Took a few hours.

Killed the same boss the next spawn with no PvP, 15 or so players and it took less than 10 minutes.

This is why I dont consider these encounters to be PvE content. With PvP, they are great. Without PvP, they are shit.

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