Mag7spy wrote: » How do we go from seeing the cleric show case and thinking they can't exist because of action combat o.O. What does that have to do with healing your team from dmg. I feel like so many people just lurk to complain about non existent things. Healing looks good, healing looks like there is going to be a high skill ceiling and a a good healer vrs a non good one is going to be huge in any form of pvp.
Solvryn wrote: » Tab and Action will never compliment each other if tab skills are equal in effectiveness to action, action is harder to pull off. So there's going to be a measure of dissatisfaction anyway.
Dygz wrote: » Solvryn wrote: » Tab and Action will never compliment each other if tab skills are equal in effectiveness to action, action is harder to pull off. So there's going to be a measure of dissatisfaction anyway. I mean... I hope that Action Combat does not just mean Active Skills that use reticle aim. From NWO, I sometimes like to Active Dodge and Active Roll - as an aspect of RPing my character. Technically, my character should be better at Dodging than my keyboard/mouse motor skills if I max my points into Dodge, but... sometimes still feels good to see my character Active Dodge behind a barrier and have a ranged attack blocked. I love Active Block in Valheim. I think, originally, the devs were planning not to have Active Block, but looks like we might get to test it during Alpha 2.
Depraved wrote: » *attempts to paralyze dygz and make him unable to dodge and block unless he uses his keyboard*
Niem Lumel wrote: » And that's it. A player will be idling most of the time once they learn how to heal because they have a lot of tools and very few offensive spells on relatively long cds.
Dygz wrote: » Depraved wrote: » *attempts to paralyze dygz and make him unable to dodge and block unless he uses his keyboard* Ha. I mean... in Ashes, I won't be Dodging or Blocking. I'll just let people kill me if they want to. I'll be completely ignoring PvP.
NiKr wrote: » Azherae wrote: » It's that if the reticle does not NEED to be aimed there's balance issues for some. This is why I'm gonna try tera. BDO was an aoe fest and outside of guns in NW, iirc, it was the same. And we've seen that Ashes will have cone aoes too, so that's "action". I guess placing a thing on the ground requires less precision than a gun/bow shot, so even though it's an "action" move it's not really enough for the action players, but then does it mean that only ranged precision shots can be considered "action"? And the game's requirement for you to aim precisely then determines how "action" the game is? Cause iirc BDO's bows have soft tab, right? So would that mean that BDO is barely even an action game? My mind just doesn't seem to work in a way where it sees the difference between an action ability in a tab game and a whole game full of action abilities that seemingly function in the same way, yet people complain that those abilities are not "action" or that they don't contribute towards the game being a hybrid. Would a high-skill reticle-based ranged-weapon-only heal be considered a proper "action" ability then? Cause ironically enough even NW had fucking tab targeting for their healing (unless they added a ranged reticle heal after the release).
Azherae wrote: » It's that if the reticle does not NEED to be aimed there's balance issues for some.
Dygz wrote: » https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armored_Core"Armored Core is a third-person shooter mecha video game..."https://www.dexerto.com/gaming/everything-we-know-about-the-armored-core-6-1736918/"The Armored Core series is a third-person shooter that involves monolithic mechs blasting and bashing each other into oblivion." Same difference... Just because combat is fun in one game genre does not mean it fits well with every other game genre. A key aspect of RPGs is not just combat roles, but having enough reaction time to synergize your character's abilities with the individual abilities of the other characters in your group/party. Combat has to be slow enough to allow for that. But also, in an RPG, character knowledge and character skills are intended to be more important than player knowledge and player (twitch/dex) skills.
Niem Lumel wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Niem Lumel wrote: » Pure healers like the one showcased cannot exist in an action combat game. I don't know how does anyone envision action combat pure healing in a sensible way that would not make people quit the role. Guess it's great that AoC is not an action combat game I doubt it as I have already given up on the role and expect others would do so with time. Pure healers is one of the most common role designs of old games. Very mediocre and and uninspiring. If the game was not tab-target, healing would have had to be properly integrated into an offensive set of abilities with different synergies and buffs. What we actually have for the Cleric Archetype is: 1) A multitude of healing abilities 2) Few utilities ( 1 ability for mana, 1 for dash, 1 for shielding) 3) Hard cc 4) 4 damaging spells The healing abilities' main special effect is the channelling. There is an in-built short cut called Divine Infusion which is an instant cast buff. And that's it. A player will be idling most of the time once they learn how to heal because they have a lot of tools and very few offensive spells on relatively long cds.
NiKr wrote: » Niem Lumel wrote: » Pure healers like the one showcased cannot exist in an action combat game. I don't know how does anyone envision action combat pure healing in a sensible way that would not make people quit the role. Guess it's great that AoC is not an action combat game
Niem Lumel wrote: » Pure healers like the one showcased cannot exist in an action combat game. I don't know how does anyone envision action combat pure healing in a sensible way that would not make people quit the role.
Sybil_Lanel wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Azherae wrote: » It's that if the reticle does not NEED to be aimed there's balance issues for some. This is why I'm gonna try tera. BDO was an aoe fest and outside of guns in NW, iirc, it was the same. And we've seen that Ashes will have cone aoes too, so that's "action". I guess placing a thing on the ground requires less precision than a gun/bow shot, so even though it's an "action" move it's not really enough for the action players, but then does it mean that only ranged precision shots can be considered "action"? And the game's requirement for you to aim precisely then determines how "action" the game is? Cause iirc BDO's bows have soft tab, right? So would that mean that BDO is barely even an action game? My mind just doesn't seem to work in a way where it sees the difference between an action ability in a tab game and a whole game full of action abilities that seemingly function in the same way, yet people complain that those abilities are not "action" or that they don't contribute towards the game being a hybrid. Would a high-skill reticle-based ranged-weapon-only heal be considered a proper "action" ability then? Cause ironically enough even NW had fucking tab targeting for their healing (unless they added a ranged reticle heal after the release). That's cause action combat healing(In my opinion as a healer/support main) is awful. I've never seen it done in a way that is better(satisfying?) than tab target. Healing is always good but it doesn't always feel good. The problem with action healing specifically is the lack of priority targeting. It's really easy to say just make it a skill shot or make it an AoE which is either boring or just feels bad when you have a lot of players involved. I mean specifically AoE healing feels unsatisfying to heal one target. Skill shot healing struggles once you add enough people to something like a raid or a siege. What I'm saying is no one has really solved the problem of action healing feeling bad compared to tab target.
Sybil_Lanel wrote: » That's cause action combat healing(In my opinion as a healer/support main) is awful. I've never seen it done in a way that is better(satisfying?) than tab target. Healing is always good but it doesn't always feel good. The problem with action healing specifically is the lack of priority targeting. It's really easy to say just make it a skill shot or make it an AoE which is either boring or just feels bad when you have a lot of players involved. I mean specifically AoE healing feels unsatisfying to heal one target. Skill shot healing struggles once you add enough people to something like a raid or a siege. What I'm saying is no one has really solved the problem of action healing feeling bad compared to tab target.
Sybil_Lanel wrote: » I'm also going to point out that the difference between a first person shooter and a third person shooter is actually massive. You wouldn't think so but they have a massively different game feel to them.
Solvryn wrote: » Sybil_Lanel wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Azherae wrote: » It's that if the reticle does not NEED to be aimed there's balance issues for some. This is why I'm gonna try tera. BDO was an aoe fest and outside of guns in NW, iirc, it was the same. And we've seen that Ashes will have cone aoes too, so that's "action". I guess placing a thing on the ground requires less precision than a gun/bow shot, so even though it's an "action" move it's not really enough for the action players, but then does it mean that only ranged precision shots can be considered "action"? And the game's requirement for you to aim precisely then determines how "action" the game is? Cause iirc BDO's bows have soft tab, right? So would that mean that BDO is barely even an action game? My mind just doesn't seem to work in a way where it sees the difference between an action ability in a tab game and a whole game full of action abilities that seemingly function in the same way, yet people complain that those abilities are not "action" or that they don't contribute towards the game being a hybrid. Would a high-skill reticle-based ranged-weapon-only heal be considered a proper "action" ability then? Cause ironically enough even NW had fucking tab targeting for their healing (unless they added a ranged reticle heal after the release). That's cause action combat healing(In my opinion as a healer/support main) is awful. I've never seen it done in a way that is better(satisfying?) than tab target. Healing is always good but it doesn't always feel good. The problem with action healing specifically is the lack of priority targeting. It's really easy to say just make it a skill shot or make it an AoE which is either boring or just feels bad when you have a lot of players involved. I mean specifically AoE healing feels unsatisfying to heal one target. Skill shot healing struggles once you add enough people to something like a raid or a siege. What I'm saying is no one has really solved the problem of action healing feeling bad compared to tab target. This is the opposite of how I feel, tab just requires you to click a nameplate and press a button, takes less skill.
Leiloni wrote: » Solvryn wrote: » Sybil_Lanel wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Azherae wrote: » It's that if the reticle does not NEED to be aimed there's balance issues for some. This is why I'm gonna try tera. BDO was an aoe fest and outside of guns in NW, iirc, it was the same. And we've seen that Ashes will have cone aoes too, so that's "action". I guess placing a thing on the ground requires less precision than a gun/bow shot, so even though it's an "action" move it's not really enough for the action players, but then does it mean that only ranged precision shots can be considered "action"? And the game's requirement for you to aim precisely then determines how "action" the game is? Cause iirc BDO's bows have soft tab, right? So would that mean that BDO is barely even an action game? My mind just doesn't seem to work in a way where it sees the difference between an action ability in a tab game and a whole game full of action abilities that seemingly function in the same way, yet people complain that those abilities are not "action" or that they don't contribute towards the game being a hybrid. Would a high-skill reticle-based ranged-weapon-only heal be considered a proper "action" ability then? Cause ironically enough even NW had fucking tab targeting for their healing (unless they added a ranged reticle heal after the release). That's cause action combat healing(In my opinion as a healer/support main) is awful. I've never seen it done in a way that is better(satisfying?) than tab target. Healing is always good but it doesn't always feel good. The problem with action healing specifically is the lack of priority targeting. It's really easy to say just make it a skill shot or make it an AoE which is either boring or just feels bad when you have a lot of players involved. I mean specifically AoE healing feels unsatisfying to heal one target. Skill shot healing struggles once you add enough people to something like a raid or a siege. What I'm saying is no one has really solved the problem of action healing feeling bad compared to tab target. This is the opposite of how I feel, tab just requires you to click a nameplate and press a button, takes less skill. I'll say I agree with Sybil. Tab healing is often much more complex with a good healer in a well designed game being required to make a lot of decisions moment to moment about what skill to use, when, on whom, or maybe target a boss/mob with something. And even in older games combat was fast paced enough with enough happening to different players in my party, and various mobs/boss actions, or enemy player actions, that there are a lot of such decisions to make to keep me thinking. Healing is very much a thinking game. And what to do and how to play is very dynamic which is what makes it so fun. But it also requires a deep knowledge of your class instead of a lot of DPS who can get away with basics like "What is my rotation". A good tab healer doesn't really have a rotation and needs to effectively go through a decision tree in their head in a fraction of a second when someone needs healing. Of course it's easy to be a bad tab healer and just press buttons, but then people die more often and you're often unable to get through difficult or unexpected situations. Or you find your group pulling less mobs, or playing it safer in other ways, or the bad healer might have to drink more often, etc. "Getting by" sure, but not well. But a good healer in a group is evident to most players as they're capable of much more, and as the healer, that challenge is much more interesting than most action. It's why while I would love if they could do some really good action skills, I wouldn't be upset if we had to stick with tab plus templated AoEs, because it's the better choice than doing poorly designed action. By far. Even vanilla WoW/now Classic Era requires me to think more about healing than most action combat games. The only exceptions are as you know TERA, and I'd say something like New World. But not because New World requires much decision making (it doesn't - it's quite simple), it just has a lot of mechanical skill required. But most action combat games just throw a lot of AoEs at us which removes most of the decisions required and as Sybil mentioned, one of those is priority targeting. If I just plop down AoEs, that's incredibly boring and a bot could do it. Few action games have targeted healing outside of a few. TERA did it exceptionally well. New World did it exceptionally poorly. Don't get me started on how clunky their targeting system is and how the low, close camera angle makes it worse. Then you have games like ESO that just auto target the lowest HP target, or closest, or whatever. Again, removes any decision making from me. It's the ultimate hurr durr press button do good. But in comparison, look at TERA where the majority of my healing was targeted healing. And the AoEs I had that were any good and at all worth using, were very tiny 5m AoEs. One was a targeted AoE on a CD, so this was a targeted spell as well. But to heal anyone else with it they had to be in melee range of my target (and I couldn't spam it like many other action games let you do - it had a 20 second CD). The other good AoE was stuck to my feet, so I had to put myself, a squishy cloth healer, in harm's way to find a clump of friendlies in melee range of each other to heal. And also worth mentioning is this game had collision which many did not, so you could only fit so many people in a tiny 5m range circle. Even the AoEs in TERA had limits that required skill and decision on my part as well as on the part of my team.
Dygz wrote: » Sybil_Lanel wrote: » That's cause action combat healing(In my opinion as a healer/support main) is awful. I've never seen it done in a way that is better(satisfying?) than tab target. Healing is always good but it doesn't always feel good. The problem with action healing specifically is the lack of priority targeting. It's really easy to say just make it a skill shot or make it an AoE which is either boring or just feels bad when you have a lot of players involved. I mean specifically AoE healing feels unsatisfying to heal one target. Skill shot healing struggles once you add enough people to something like a raid or a siege. What I'm saying is no one has really solved the problem of action healing feeling bad compared to tab target. In NWO, I liked the occassional moments when I tried a Heal skill-shot and someone else ran past my target and intercepted the Heal. It's a great emergent RP moment. Makes it feel like I'm living out a Fantasy novel. Failing occassionally can also feel satisfying. Not all AoE Heals are made the same. Hallowed Ground, the Ashes A1 AoE Heal felt great. Cleric creates a dome which Heals allies and damages enemies. It lasts for 20 or 30 seconds (whatever). Plenty of time for allies to run to that sanctuary if they feel the need. During Sieges, several Clerics would work together to keep Hallowed Ground constantly active as attackers tried to bust down the front gate and allies fought to defend the front gate. That AoE did not feel unsatisfying.
Solvryn wrote: » Leiloni wrote: » Solvryn wrote: » Sybil_Lanel wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Azherae wrote: » It's that if the reticle does not NEED to be aimed there's balance issues for some. This is why I'm gonna try tera. BDO was an aoe fest and outside of guns in NW, iirc, it was the same. And we've seen that Ashes will have cone aoes too, so that's "action". I guess placing a thing on the ground requires less precision than a gun/bow shot, so even though it's an "action" move it's not really enough for the action players, but then does it mean that only ranged precision shots can be considered "action"? And the game's requirement for you to aim precisely then determines how "action" the game is? Cause iirc BDO's bows have soft tab, right? So would that mean that BDO is barely even an action game? My mind just doesn't seem to work in a way where it sees the difference between an action ability in a tab game and a whole game full of action abilities that seemingly function in the same way, yet people complain that those abilities are not "action" or that they don't contribute towards the game being a hybrid. Would a high-skill reticle-based ranged-weapon-only heal be considered a proper "action" ability then? Cause ironically enough even NW had fucking tab targeting for their healing (unless they added a ranged reticle heal after the release). That's cause action combat healing(In my opinion as a healer/support main) is awful. I've never seen it done in a way that is better(satisfying?) than tab target. Healing is always good but it doesn't always feel good. The problem with action healing specifically is the lack of priority targeting. It's really easy to say just make it a skill shot or make it an AoE which is either boring or just feels bad when you have a lot of players involved. I mean specifically AoE healing feels unsatisfying to heal one target. Skill shot healing struggles once you add enough people to something like a raid or a siege. What I'm saying is no one has really solved the problem of action healing feeling bad compared to tab target. This is the opposite of how I feel, tab just requires you to click a nameplate and press a button, takes less skill. I'll say I agree with Sybil. Tab healing is often much more complex with a good healer in a well designed game being required to make a lot of decisions moment to moment about what skill to use, when, on whom, or maybe target a boss/mob with something. And even in older games combat was fast paced enough with enough happening to different players in my party, and various mobs/boss actions, or enemy player actions, that there are a lot of such decisions to make to keep me thinking. Healing is very much a thinking game. And what to do and how to play is very dynamic which is what makes it so fun. But it also requires a deep knowledge of your class instead of a lot of DPS who can get away with basics like "What is my rotation". A good tab healer doesn't really have a rotation and needs to effectively go through a decision tree in their head in a fraction of a second when someone needs healing. Of course it's easy to be a bad tab healer and just press buttons, but then people die more often and you're often unable to get through difficult or unexpected situations. Or you find your group pulling less mobs, or playing it safer in other ways, or the bad healer might have to drink more often, etc. "Getting by" sure, but not well. But a good healer in a group is evident to most players as they're capable of much more, and as the healer, that challenge is much more interesting than most action. It's why while I would love if they could do some really good action skills, I wouldn't be upset if we had to stick with tab plus templated AoEs, because it's the better choice than doing poorly designed action. By far. Even vanilla WoW/now Classic Era requires me to think more about healing than most action combat games. The only exceptions are as you know TERA, and I'd say something like New World. But not because New World requires much decision making (it doesn't - it's quite simple), it just has a lot of mechanical skill required. But most action combat games just throw a lot of AoEs at us which removes most of the decisions required and as Sybil mentioned, one of those is priority targeting. If I just plop down AoEs, that's incredibly boring and a bot could do it. Few action games have targeted healing outside of a few. TERA did it exceptionally well. New World did it exceptionally poorly. Don't get me started on how clunky their targeting system is and how the low, close camera angle makes it worse. Then you have games like ESO that just auto target the lowest HP target, or closest, or whatever. Again, removes any decision making from me. It's the ultimate hurr durr press button do good. But in comparison, look at TERA where the majority of my healing was targeted healing. And the AoEs I had that were any good and at all worth using, were very tiny 5m AoEs. One was a targeted AoE on a CD, so this was a targeted spell as well. But to heal anyone else with it they had to be in melee range of my target (and I couldn't spam it like many other action games let you do - it had a 20 second CD). The other good AoE was stuck to my feet, so I had to put myself, a squishy cloth healer, in harm's way to find a clump of friendlies in melee range of each other to heal. And also worth mentioning is this game had collision which many did not, so you could only fit so many people in a tiny 5m range circle. Even the AoEs in TERA had limits that required skill and decision on my part as well as on the part of my team. You have never played Darkfall Unholy wars, that healing was fun. Tab healing hasn’t been hard in any game I’ve played.
