instanced dungeons

i like the fact that the dungeons in ashes of creation are open world, however i think they should have a cap of players that can enter each dungeon, a good example is anarchy online, they had a player cap of about 16-24 players per dungeon before a new ID was formed, or a new Layer

the problem with open world dungeons is, on paper it sounds fun, you can pvp for the chance of loot, etc etc, but in reality it will be chaos, with servers holding anywhere between 10-20,000 players at a given time people will just skip dungeons all together as competing against 500 other players for a chance of loot is just not worth it,

once the game matures and there becomes twink items dropping from certain bosses in certain dungeons this will be even worse, and i feel that a large part of the game will be just un obtainable by a vast majority of players,

i dont think dungeons instance locked like wow to a 5 man team is the way to go but maybe they should have a player cap, whats everyones thoughts

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Dygz

Chicago wrote: »

actually by definition it would make chess an RPG

[derail]The definition of RPG is not: "any game where it's possible for players to also pretend they are a character in a story."[/derail]

Dygz

NiKr wrote: »

In other words yall do not want open world dungeons. Simple as that.

I think people are OK with 80% Open World Dungeons?

Dygz

Chicago wrote: »

is ashes of creation a new MMO or is it just L2 being brought back to life because steven misses the game, they can have their own systems

It's mostly L2 being brought back to life - with Nodes.
Steven and Jeffrey said they are not really trying to recreate the wheel. Ashes is mostly fairly safe in using pre-established MMORPG concepts.
Nodes is the feature that is novel for MMORPGs.

Ludullu

Dygz wrote: »

I think people are OK with 80% Open World Dungeons?

We'll have to see. Cause what I've learned recently is that people don't really know what those even are and what they entail.

Fantmx

Open world dungeons are a must

Dygz

NiKr wrote: »

We'll have to see. Cause what I've learned recently is that people don't really know what those even are and what they entail.

That just sounds like it's a different expectation depending on whether one prefers L2-style Open World dungeons or EQ-style Open World dungeons.

Chicago

Dygz wrote: »

Chicago wrote: »

actually by definition it would make chess an RPG

[derail]The definition of RPG is not: "any game where it's possible for players to also pretend they are a character in a story."[/derail]

Its not definitive, its just "game" technically anything can be an RPG its super subjective, if you want to add online roleplaying game sure you could but chess is also online lol

Noaani

@NiKr

One thing you have to remember- L2 developers didn't make up some bullshit marketing term in an effort to convince PvE players that the game may be for then. L2 was just a PvP MMORPG, and didn't need to pretend to be nothing else. It was talked about as a PvP MMO, and marketed as a PvP MMO.

Intrepid are trying to tell us that Ashes is not a PvP MMORPG, and dungeons are the only real place they can prove that point.

If what you have posted above from L2 is what players hold expect from dungeon content, how well do you think that would go down with people that believe Ashes is a PvX MMO, not a PvP MMO?

People know that kind of thing (people that have been around for a while, at least) as being a PvP thing - not a PvX thing.

That may be what open dungeons are to you, but L2 is not the only game that had open dungeons with PvP.

Depraved

Dygz wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

lets say i play a game and i rpg as a tavern owner.

I think you mean you RP as a tavern owner. You could try to do that in just about any game.
You could do that while playing chess if you wanted to. That would not make chess an RPG.

Depraved wrote: »

all im doing is stay in my tavern offering people drinks and making sure there are no unsavory individuals in the tavern. there is no story, no questing and no progression, but im still roleplaying, arent i?

You would be RPing. That doesn't tell me whether the game is an RPG.
If it's an RPG, I would expect there to be quests associated with running the tavern. And some of those quests would probably involve killing some Rats.

If you said, "I like staying in a tavern and playing chess."
I would also say - "that sounds like a chess sim". Hopefully, the other features of the MMORPG are engaging enough that it's not common for people to want to spend the bulk of their time playing chess in a tavern.
And, yeah, in an RPG, I would hope it's designed that people would want to stay in a spot farming mobs about as often as people would want to stay in a tavern playing chess.

yes, i meant RP oops, typo. and while i could play chess and rp as a tavern owner, thats a different story than the game being an rpg and allowing you to rp as a tavern owner...

Depraved

i think killing 5-6 mobs per horu would be pretty boring.

i didnt play eq but afaik you would spend 2-3 mins killing a strong mob, then 5 mins sitting down cuz you had no mana plus you had to wait for the mob to respawn. at that point im spending more time not playing my character than playing it.

i rather have rooms full of mobs so i can aoe farm. kill everything in one room, move to the next and aoe farm.

also, if you have a bunch of rooms with bosses and every room is a boss room, then they arent really bosses (by definition)...bosses are stronger than all the other monsters in the same area, have much longer respawns (usually) and are very scarce. its like fighting soldiers vs fighting a general. you dont have generals in every room.

Dygz

Well, the expectation is that you will be RPing and doing non-combat stuff while waiting for Mana to regen because you're not supposed to be in combat constantly - RPGs are not the same thing as an FPS.
Same for TTK.
And in RPGs it supposed to be that TTK is slow enough for members of the group to strategize about how to best synergize their inidividual abilities and tactics.

NWO combat is my sweet-spot for speed of Action Combat in MMORPGs.

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

That may be what open dungeons are to you, but L2 is not the only game that had open dungeons with PvP.

As LeRebelle pointed out, those situations weren't a permanent thing in the dungeons. Those would either happen around respawns of huge important bosses or if a small altercation between guild wars snowballed into a huge fight.

My main point of posting those vids were to say that open world dungeon should be able to support those amounts of people. As we've discussed recently, I want the pve part of dungeons to be of way higher quality than L2's. And Intrepid promised that. I won't believe them until they show at least one damn complex and difficult mob, but that's most likely a thing for late-stage A2 testing.

Oh, and as I've also stated before, mobs should account for zergs and have some counters to that, on top of general environmental hazards.

LeRebelle

Noaani wrote: »

@NiKr

...

If what you have posted above from L2 is what players hold expect from dungeon content, how well do you think that would go down with people that believe Ashes is a PvX MMO, not a PvP MMO?

...

Tbh, the locations in the videos were 80% of time relatively calm and PvE players (There was... some) were not really bothered.

But, as I saw on an other thread, it seems we (By we, I mean people who write here) didn't have the same definition of PvX, which doesn't help.

Azherae

I don't have any interest in instanced dungeons based on what I understand from the L2 players that have educated me relative to that game.

If I want instanced content I'll petition Intrepid to add some equivalent of Beastmen Seals so that just killing mobs well is a gateway to some instanced boss or area of my choosing, removing the overall problem.

Since there's no entirely safe way to collect these efficiently in an L2 style game, this would be more than enough for me if the game was otherwise unable to offer engaging PvE content due to the Open World Dungeon dynamics.

Fantmx

Depraved wrote: »

i think killing 5-6 mobs per horu would be pretty boring.

i didnt play eq but afaik you would spend 2-3 mins killing a strong mob, then 5 mins sitting down cuz you had no mana plus you had to wait for the mob to respawn. at that point im spending more time not playing my character than playing it.

i rather have rooms full of mobs so i can aoe farm. kill everything in one room, move to the next and aoe farm.

also, if you have a bunch of rooms with bosses and every room is a boss room, then they arent really bosses (by definition)...bosses are stronger than all the other monsters in the same area, have much longer respawns (usually) and are very scarce. its like fighting soldiers vs fighting a general. you dont have generals in every room.

If groups were well run and you had the appropriate buffs like KEI things went faster.

Fiddlez

I am not interested in zerg fests. There needs to be limits and rules to.it. I think Albion has better versions of this. I've played full PVP only MMOs and Zergs ruined those games too.

Depraved

Dygz wrote: »

Well, the expectation is that you will be RPing and doing non-combat stuff while waiting for Mana to regen because you're not supposed to be in combat constantly - RPGs are not the same thing as an FPS.
Same for TTK.
And in RPGs it supposed to be that TTK is slow enough for members of the group to strategize about how to best synergize their inidividual abilities and tactics.

NWO combat is my sweet-spot for speed of Action Combat in MMORPGs.

there are better ways to make non being in combat constantly than waiting 5 minutes doing nothing for every minute of fight.
also, you arent in constant combat in an fps =x

Depraved

Chicago wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Chicago wrote: »

this looks terrible lol

So in the words of a classic game developer: "This game is not for you"

i mean are we making an MMO here or trying to bring back life to an old game that a couple of people miss, there are always ways for games to improve and just because i dont like one aspect of it does not mean the game is not for me, maybe it means some of the dungeon content is not for me, but please tell me how that is good game play

firstly there are literally hundreds of people in the dungeon, witch totally removes the risk vs reward aspect of it, no mobs will be up more than a few seconds including bosses, if pvp breaks out its going to just be an aoe fest, no real combat no real skill, no outplays, just a big aoe fest of 500 people, and most likely who ever has the biggest raid group will win, every single player wanting to go in and test their skills as a 5 man or 8 man party will have next to no chance competing

secondly, i cant even appreciate the dungeon with this many people, now imagine this with the flashy spell animations ashes has, most peoples computers will probably just shut down at this point,

like i said i dont think dungeons should be instanced to one group but 500 players in one dungeon seems like it will cause more issues than it will fix, and with corruption it will be almost impossible to even pvp your way into a farm spot because as soon as your group flags you are just an easy target for the other 500 players already standing ontop of you that can kill you with no downside, obviously we need to test this but like i said, is ashes of creation a new MMO or is it just L2 being brought back to life because steven misses the game, they can have their own systems

you have no idea what you are talking about. those fights are happening because they are waiting for a boss. normally, you dont have that many people in those dungeons.

also, its not just an aoe fest...you are workng with your party and coordinating your skills with theirs. each party is independant. good buffers and healers make the difference. you just have other parties next to you that are working with their own members as well. also, the aoes in l2 have very low range, so you have to be close to the enemy, which means you can get picked off.

ive been in those fights many times and its really exciting. im not against small scale pvp but 1v1 is for antisocials. id say there is less skills involved in 1v1 or 3v3 9and its more about gear or playing whatever is op or rock paper scissor) than big fights or party vs party.

Noaani

Depraved wrote: »

i think killing 5-6 mobs per horu would be pretty boring.

So do I.

Who suggested that?

Depraved

Noaani wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

i think killing 5-6 mobs per horu would be pretty boring.

So do I.

Who suggested that?

you did

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