NiKr wrote: » My main point of posting those vids were to say that open world dungeon should be able to support those amounts of people.
Noaani wrote: » When I talk about dungeons supporting players, I am talking about there being enough worthwhile content for that many people - that is a dungeons function, so as far as I am concerned that is the only metric worth talking about (you are welcome to talk about how many players can be in one dungeon before it crashes with others, if you like, it just isn't anything I am interested in discussing).
As for event mobs and such - they shouldn't be spawned in dungeons. Events and such should happen in overland areas.
Noaani wrote: » If by "support" you mean physically fit, then sure. Anybdungeon innEQ2 would be able to fit that many people that tightly packed. While the game would spawn a second version of a dungeon, you were never restricted from going in to the first - if players wanted that many in one dungeon they could.
NiKr wrote: » Ah, see, you shoulda said so from the start. So it was a conscious choice by the devs to make the game less competitive. L2 just made the choice to keep it more so.
Depraved wrote: » nope. that depends on the overall design. if you are making a game where everybody is a winner, then sure.
Noaani wrote: » More people doesn't mean more competition. EQ2 remains the most competitive game I have played.
NiKr wrote: » More people means more people at high skill lvls.
Fantmx wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i think killing 5-6 mobs per horu would be pretty boring. i didnt play eq but afaik you would spend 2-3 mins killing a strong mob, then 5 mins sitting down cuz you had no mana plus you had to wait for the mob to respawn. at that point im spending more time not playing my character than playing it. i rather have rooms full of mobs so i can aoe farm. kill everything in one room, move to the next and aoe farm. also, if you have a bunch of rooms with bosses and every room is a boss room, then they arent really bosses (by definition)...bosses are stronger than all the other monsters in the same area, have much longer respawns (usually) and are very scarce. its like fighting soldiers vs fighting a general. you dont have generals in every room. If groups were well run and you had the appropriate buffs like KEI things went faster.
Depraved wrote: » i think killing 5-6 mobs per horu would be pretty boring. i didnt play eq but afaik you would spend 2-3 mins killing a strong mob, then 5 mins sitting down cuz you had no mana plus you had to wait for the mob to respawn. at that point im spending more time not playing my character than playing it. i rather have rooms full of mobs so i can aoe farm. kill everything in one room, move to the next and aoe farm. also, if you have a bunch of rooms with bosses and every room is a boss room, then they arent really bosses (by definition)...bosses are stronger than all the other monsters in the same area, have much longer respawns (usually) and are very scarce. its like fighting soldiers vs fighting a general. you dont have generals in every room.
Noaani wrote: » Depraved wrote: » nope. that depends on the overall design. if you are making a game where everybody is a winner, then sure. Making a game where everyone has content is not the same as making a game where everyone is a winner. As I said to NiKr above, EQ2 is the most competitive game I have ever played. Not the most competitive MMO. The even the most competitive computer game. The most competitive game. Everyone having some content to run does not mean there is no competition, it just means everyone has some content to run. The only time you could conflate the two is if the games content is so easy that access means success - and if that is the case you have a game with shit content that is relying 100% on PvP.
Depraved wrote: » there are better ways to make non being in combat constantly than waiting 5 minutes doing nothing for every minute of fight.
NiKr wrote: » Noaani wrote: » More people doesn't mean more competition. EQ2 remains the most competitive game I have played. More people means more people at high skill lvls. And more high skill people means more competition. You can be the best player in a group of 100, but you might be only in the top 500 of a thousand-person group, because those 1k people just so happened to have a bigger number of highly skilled players. I know that EQ2 had quite a few players in its heyday, but I'd imagine that if WoW had a more competition-leaning pve - it'd have better quality of competitive players. It does have world first races and stuff, so there's at least some form of competition there. And I know that you'll say that EQ2 is more competitive because people kept their strats secret and all that, but I'd imagine that just comes down to the players' ego. And with WoW having a broader type of audience, I'd assume there's more chances to have big ego people to get to the top. And then it's only a matter of time until they start showing off how cool and smart they are, by recording their clears and posting them. Or some disgruntled member recorded the raid behind his guild's back and tried to show that they're a bunch of assholes. I've seen both of those types of situations in L2 as well, and its players' egos were big too, cause pvp usually attracts such people.
Percimes wrote: » Fantmx wrote: » Depraved wrote: » i think killing 5-6 mobs per horu would be pretty boring. i didnt play eq but afaik you would spend 2-3 mins killing a strong mob, then 5 mins sitting down cuz you had no mana plus you had to wait for the mob to respawn. at that point im spending more time not playing my character than playing it. i rather have rooms full of mobs so i can aoe farm. kill everything in one room, move to the next and aoe farm. also, if you have a bunch of rooms with bosses and every room is a boss room, then they arent really bosses (by definition)...bosses are stronger than all the other monsters in the same area, have much longer respawns (usually) and are very scarce. its like fighting soldiers vs fighting a general. you dont have generals in every room. If groups were well run and you had the appropriate buffs like KEI things went faster. Sometime not really faster, but nonstop. The puller would go get more mobs when the health of the last ones was getting low and the fight kept going on and on... A caster would maybe sit to meditate for a pull or two, or cast only one spell per pull. Full party breaks would happen when there was multiple people low on mana or when the puller had to wait for the respawn. Ideally, it would happen more or less at the same time. But more often than not, groups were camping a spawn location and spending a good amount of time waiting.
Mag7spy wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Noaani wrote: » More people doesn't mean more competition. EQ2 remains the most competitive game I have played. More people means more people at high skill lvls. And more high skill people means more competition. You can be the best player in a group of 100, but you might be only in the top 500 of a thousand-person group, because those 1k people just so happened to have a bigger number of highly skilled players. I know that EQ2 had quite a few players in its heyday, but I'd imagine that if WoW had a more competition-leaning pve - it'd have better quality of competitive players. It does have world first races and stuff, so there's at least some form of competition there. And I know that you'll say that EQ2 is more competitive because people kept their strats secret and all that, but I'd imagine that just comes down to the players' ego. And with WoW having a broader type of audience, I'd assume there's more chances to have big ego people to get to the top. And then it's only a matter of time until they start showing off how cool and smart they are, by recording their clears and posting them. Or some disgruntled member recorded the raid behind his guild's back and tried to show that they're a bunch of assholes. I've seen both of those types of situations in L2 as well, and its players' egos were big too, cause pvp usually attracts such people. Fish thinking they are big in a tiny pond. Same logic can be applied to any game so someone denying that to be the case is silly. People are are competitive fight against each other and grow, the bigger the competitive scene the more challenging it is to get in. Granted people that are not in actual competitive scenes won't realize this so it most likely will just fall on def ears.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Noaani wrote: » More people doesn't mean more competition. EQ2 remains the most competitive game I have played. More people means more people at high skill lvls. And more high skill people means more competition. You can be the best player in a group of 100, but you might be only in the top 500 of a thousand-person group, because those 1k people just so happened to have a bigger number of highly skilled players. I know that EQ2 had quite a few players in its heyday, but I'd imagine that if WoW had a more competition-leaning pve - it'd have better quality of competitive players. It does have world first races and stuff, so there's at least some form of competition there. And I know that you'll say that EQ2 is more competitive because people kept their strats secret and all that, but I'd imagine that just comes down to the players' ego. And with WoW having a broader type of audience, I'd assume there's more chances to have big ego people to get to the top. And then it's only a matter of time until they start showing off how cool and smart they are, by recording their clears and posting them. Or some disgruntled member recorded the raid behind his guild's back and tried to show that they're a bunch of assholes. I've seen both of those types of situations in L2 as well, and its players' egos were big too, cause pvp usually attracts such people. Fish thinking they are big in a tiny pond. Same logic can be applied to any game so someone denying that to be the case is silly. People are are competitive fight against each other and grow, the bigger the competitive scene the more challenging it is to get in. Granted people that are not in actual competitive scenes won't realize this so it most likely will just fall on def ears. The normal distribution for skill in competitive video games does not match the one for most other sports or 'RL' activities except in one genre.
Depraved wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Noaani wrote: » More people doesn't mean more competition. EQ2 remains the most competitive game I have played. More people means more people at high skill lvls. And more high skill people means more competition. You can be the best player in a group of 100, but you might be only in the top 500 of a thousand-person group, because those 1k people just so happened to have a bigger number of highly skilled players. I know that EQ2 had quite a few players in its heyday, but I'd imagine that if WoW had a more competition-leaning pve - it'd have better quality of competitive players. It does have world first races and stuff, so there's at least some form of competition there. And I know that you'll say that EQ2 is more competitive because people kept their strats secret and all that, but I'd imagine that just comes down to the players' ego. And with WoW having a broader type of audience, I'd assume there's more chances to have big ego people to get to the top. And then it's only a matter of time until they start showing off how cool and smart they are, by recording their clears and posting them. Or some disgruntled member recorded the raid behind his guild's back and tried to show that they're a bunch of assholes. I've seen both of those types of situations in L2 as well, and its players' egos were big too, cause pvp usually attracts such people. Fish thinking they are big in a tiny pond. Same logic can be applied to any game so someone denying that to be the case is silly. People are are competitive fight against each other and grow, the bigger the competitive scene the more challenging it is to get in. Granted people that are not in actual competitive scenes won't realize this so it most likely will just fall on def ears. The normal distribution for skill in competitive video games does not match the one for most other sports or 'RL' activities except in one genre. incorrect. The way talent/skill/resources are distributed doesn't change across activities. it's a Pareto distribution. But since I'm not in the mood for arguing, you can just ignore this.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Noaani wrote: » More people doesn't mean more competition. EQ2 remains the most competitive game I have played. More people means more people at high skill lvls. And more high skill people means more competition. You can be the best player in a group of 100, but you might be only in the top 500 of a thousand-person group, because those 1k people just so happened to have a bigger number of highly skilled players. I know that EQ2 had quite a few players in its heyday, but I'd imagine that if WoW had a more competition-leaning pve - it'd have better quality of competitive players. It does have world first races and stuff, so there's at least some form of competition there. And I know that you'll say that EQ2 is more competitive because people kept their strats secret and all that, but I'd imagine that just comes down to the players' ego. And with WoW having a broader type of audience, I'd assume there's more chances to have big ego people to get to the top. And then it's only a matter of time until they start showing off how cool and smart they are, by recording their clears and posting them. Or some disgruntled member recorded the raid behind his guild's back and tried to show that they're a bunch of assholes. I've seen both of those types of situations in L2 as well, and its players' egos were big too, cause pvp usually attracts such people. Fish thinking they are big in a tiny pond. Same logic can be applied to any game so someone denying that to be the case is silly. People are are competitive fight against each other and grow, the bigger the competitive scene the more challenging it is to get in. Granted people that are not in actual competitive scenes won't realize this so it most likely will just fall on def ears. Both you and NiKr are generally wrong about this, and Noaani is correct. The normal distribution for skill in competitive video games does not match the one for most other sports or 'RL' activities except in one genre. But since I'm not in the mood for arguing, you can just ignore this, this post is 'for certain other people'. If you make dungeons bigger to attract more players so that you get more competition within the groups that enter it, you will get the opposite result. This is true even for the mid level player, because the mid level player's perception is that their true competition is the high level player. In a progressive game where two groups that 'want to topple a stronger opponent' have an option to 'not fight each other, but instead attack the stronger opponent, either sequentially or simultaneously', this is what they generally take. The stronger opponent does not experience this as more actual competition, just more opponents that they defeat.
Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Noaani wrote: » More people doesn't mean more competition. EQ2 remains the most competitive game I have played. More people means more people at high skill lvls. And more high skill people means more competition. You can be the best player in a group of 100, but you might be only in the top 500 of a thousand-person group, because those 1k people just so happened to have a bigger number of highly skilled players. I know that EQ2 had quite a few players in its heyday, but I'd imagine that if WoW had a more competition-leaning pve - it'd have better quality of competitive players. It does have world first races and stuff, so there's at least some form of competition there. And I know that you'll say that EQ2 is more competitive because people kept their strats secret and all that, but I'd imagine that just comes down to the players' ego. And with WoW having a broader type of audience, I'd assume there's more chances to have big ego people to get to the top. And then it's only a matter of time until they start showing off how cool and smart they are, by recording their clears and posting them. Or some disgruntled member recorded the raid behind his guild's back and tried to show that they're a bunch of assholes. I've seen both of those types of situations in L2 as well, and its players' egos were big too, cause pvp usually attracts such people. Fish thinking they are big in a tiny pond. Same logic can be applied to any game so someone denying that to be the case is silly. People are are competitive fight against each other and grow, the bigger the competitive scene the more challenging it is to get in. Granted people that are not in actual competitive scenes won't realize this so it most likely will just fall on def ears. Both you and NiKr are generally wrong about this, and Noaani is correct. The normal distribution for skill in competitive video games does not match the one for most other sports or 'RL' activities except in one genre. But since I'm not in the mood for arguing, you can just ignore this, this post is 'for certain other people'. If you make dungeons bigger to attract more players so that you get more competition within the groups that enter it, you will get the opposite result. This is true even for the mid level player, because the mid level player's perception is that their true competition is the high level player. In a progressive game where two groups that 'want to topple a stronger opponent' have an option to 'not fight each other, but instead attack the stronger opponent, either sequentially or simultaneously', this is what they generally take. The stronger opponent does not experience this as more actual competition, just more opponents that they defeat. You must be missing the point, and trying to relate this to something else in some manner. More people playing a game, means more competition, means from competition people reach a higher level of gameplay. To go against the idea more high lvl players completing does not lead to a higher skill level, would be going against saying you know how competitive scenes work. We are talking about the overall experience with the game and its total population and the people it brings in. If the game were to reach that level of point with active pvp and meaningful pvp that is going to translate over to dungeons as well. to focus on the element you are trying to do a cop out to your argument by saying people will work together as a means to win so isn't competitive. That part is completely false as well first off you are ignoring all other possible situations to focus on one type of instance in the game. It actually a naïve point to make, for the person that is strong enough to fight to has to deal with a higher level of competition against them to win. That conflict will breed growth of the player if they can overcome it. Simply having odds against you does not remove competition. Second there are so many scarious that can come up, trying to say this is the reason why it isn't competitive is silly. Effectively you are ignoring everything else that can hand to hold you gun onto one point. End note the more people are having conflict with each other, the larger the player base the more high level of competition that will grow within the game. To refuse that I'd question if one knows what they are talking about or has been in a competitive scene before.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Noaani wrote: » More people doesn't mean more competition. EQ2 remains the most competitive game I have played. More people means more people at high skill lvls. And more high skill people means more competition. You can be the best player in a group of 100, but you might be only in the top 500 of a thousand-person group, because those 1k people just so happened to have a bigger number of highly skilled players. I know that EQ2 had quite a few players in its heyday, but I'd imagine that if WoW had a more competition-leaning pve - it'd have better quality of competitive players. It does have world first races and stuff, so there's at least some form of competition there. And I know that you'll say that EQ2 is more competitive because people kept their strats secret and all that, but I'd imagine that just comes down to the players' ego. And with WoW having a broader type of audience, I'd assume there's more chances to have big ego people to get to the top. And then it's only a matter of time until they start showing off how cool and smart they are, by recording their clears and posting them. Or some disgruntled member recorded the raid behind his guild's back and tried to show that they're a bunch of assholes. I've seen both of those types of situations in L2 as well, and its players' egos were big too, cause pvp usually attracts such people. Fish thinking they are big in a tiny pond. Same logic can be applied to any game so someone denying that to be the case is silly. People are are competitive fight against each other and grow, the bigger the competitive scene the more challenging it is to get in. Granted people that are not in actual competitive scenes won't realize this so it most likely will just fall on def ears. Both you and NiKr are generally wrong about this, and Noaani is correct. The normal distribution for skill in competitive video games does not match the one for most other sports or 'RL' activities except in one genre. But since I'm not in the mood for arguing, you can just ignore this, this post is 'for certain other people'. If you make dungeons bigger to attract more players so that you get more competition within the groups that enter it, you will get the opposite result. This is true even for the mid level player, because the mid level player's perception is that their true competition is the high level player. In a progressive game where two groups that 'want to topple a stronger opponent' have an option to 'not fight each other, but instead attack the stronger opponent, either sequentially or simultaneously', this is what they generally take. The stronger opponent does not experience this as more actual competition, just more opponents that they defeat. You must be missing the point, and trying to relate this to something else in some manner. More people playing a game, means more competition, means from competition people reach a higher level of gameplay. To go against the idea more high lvl players completing does not lead to a higher skill level, would be going against saying you know how competitive scenes work. We are talking about the overall experience with the game and its total population and the people it brings in. If the game were to reach that level of point with active pvp and meaningful pvp that is going to translate over to dungeons as well. to focus on the element you are trying to do a cop out to your argument by saying people will work together as a means to win so isn't competitive. That part is completely false as well first off you are ignoring all other possible situations to focus on one type of instance in the game. It actually a naïve point to make, for the person that is strong enough to fight to has to deal with a higher level of competition against them to win. That conflict will breed growth of the player if they can overcome it. Simply having odds against you does not remove competition. Second there are so many scarious that can come up, trying to say this is the reason why it isn't competitive is silly. Effectively you are ignoring everything else that can hand to hold you gun onto one point. End note the more people are having conflict with each other, the larger the player base the more high level of competition that will grow within the game. To refuse that I'd question if one knows what they are talking about or has been in a competitive scene before. That's my bad then, I thought NiKr and Noaani were talking about dungeons and the effect on dungeons. I hope this isn't a situation where they were talking about that and you are now 'off in your own world talking about something else and not telling other people'. It's Friday so I've got the usual time but...@NiKr, it's your call if I run the gauntlet today.
