Leiloni wrote: » Solvryn wrote: » Leiloni wrote: » Solvryn wrote: » Sybil_Lanel wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Azherae wrote: » It's that if the reticle does not NEED to be aimed there's balance issues for some. This is why I'm gonna try tera. BDO was an aoe fest and outside of guns in NW, iirc, it was the same. And we've seen that Ashes will have cone aoes too, so that's "action". I guess placing a thing on the ground requires less precision than a gun/bow shot, so even though it's an "action" move it's not really enough for the action players, but then does it mean that only ranged precision shots can be considered "action"? And the game's requirement for you to aim precisely then determines how "action" the game is? Cause iirc BDO's bows have soft tab, right? So would that mean that BDO is barely even an action game? My mind just doesn't seem to work in a way where it sees the difference between an action ability in a tab game and a whole game full of action abilities that seemingly function in the same way, yet people complain that those abilities are not "action" or that they don't contribute towards the game being a hybrid. Would a high-skill reticle-based ranged-weapon-only heal be considered a proper "action" ability then? Cause ironically enough even NW had fucking tab targeting for their healing (unless they added a ranged reticle heal after the release). That's cause action combat healing(In my opinion as a healer/support main) is awful. I've never seen it done in a way that is better(satisfying?) than tab target. Healing is always good but it doesn't always feel good. The problem with action healing specifically is the lack of priority targeting. It's really easy to say just make it a skill shot or make it an AoE which is either boring or just feels bad when you have a lot of players involved. I mean specifically AoE healing feels unsatisfying to heal one target. Skill shot healing struggles once you add enough people to something like a raid or a siege. What I'm saying is no one has really solved the problem of action healing feeling bad compared to tab target. This is the opposite of how I feel, tab just requires you to click a nameplate and press a button, takes less skill. I'll say I agree with Sybil. Tab healing is often much more complex with a good healer in a well designed game being required to make a lot of decisions moment to moment about what skill to use, when, on whom, or maybe target a boss/mob with something. And even in older games combat was fast paced enough with enough happening to different players in my party, and various mobs/boss actions, or enemy player actions, that there are a lot of such decisions to make to keep me thinking. Healing is very much a thinking game. And what to do and how to play is very dynamic which is what makes it so fun. But it also requires a deep knowledge of your class instead of a lot of DPS who can get away with basics like "What is my rotation". A good tab healer doesn't really have a rotation and needs to effectively go through a decision tree in their head in a fraction of a second when someone needs healing. Of course it's easy to be a bad tab healer and just press buttons, but then people die more often and you're often unable to get through difficult or unexpected situations. Or you find your group pulling less mobs, or playing it safer in other ways, or the bad healer might have to drink more often, etc. "Getting by" sure, but not well. But a good healer in a group is evident to most players as they're capable of much more, and as the healer, that challenge is much more interesting than most action. It's why while I would love if they could do some really good action skills, I wouldn't be upset if we had to stick with tab plus templated AoEs, because it's the better choice than doing poorly designed action. By far. Even vanilla WoW/now Classic Era requires me to think more about healing than most action combat games. The only exceptions are as you know TERA, and I'd say something like New World. But not because New World requires much decision making (it doesn't - it's quite simple), it just has a lot of mechanical skill required. But most action combat games just throw a lot of AoEs at us which removes most of the decisions required and as Sybil mentioned, one of those is priority targeting. If I just plop down AoEs, that's incredibly boring and a bot could do it. Few action games have targeted healing outside of a few. TERA did it exceptionally well. New World did it exceptionally poorly. Don't get me started on how clunky their targeting system is and how the low, close camera angle makes it worse. Then you have games like ESO that just auto target the lowest HP target, or closest, or whatever. Again, removes any decision making from me. It's the ultimate hurr durr press button do good. But in comparison, look at TERA where the majority of my healing was targeted healing. And the AoEs I had that were any good and at all worth using, were very tiny 5m AoEs. One was a targeted AoE on a CD, so this was a targeted spell as well. But to heal anyone else with it they had to be in melee range of my target (and I couldn't spam it like many other action games let you do - it had a 20 second CD). The other good AoE was stuck to my feet, so I had to put myself, a squishy cloth healer, in harm's way to find a clump of friendlies in melee range of each other to heal. And also worth mentioning is this game had collision which many did not, so you could only fit so many people in a tiny 5m range circle. Even the AoEs in TERA had limits that required skill and decision on my part as well as on the part of my team. You have never played Darkfall Unholy wars, that healing was fun. Tab healing hasn’t been hard in any game I’ve played. There's an important distinction to be made between hard vs interesting and engaging. I would say even New World healing is harder than most tab games, and from what little I've played and know of Darkfall I'd agree with your statement that it's harder. But the above post is what makes a game interesting and engaging for me, and that's more important than merely being challenging to play. Because difficulty doesn't always equal fun. However focusing on interesting, engaging combat - everyone is enjoying it and you can still design it to have a measure of skill required to excel.
Solvryn wrote: » Leiloni wrote: » Solvryn wrote: » Sybil_Lanel wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Azherae wrote: » It's that if the reticle does not NEED to be aimed there's balance issues for some. This is why I'm gonna try tera. BDO was an aoe fest and outside of guns in NW, iirc, it was the same. And we've seen that Ashes will have cone aoes too, so that's "action". I guess placing a thing on the ground requires less precision than a gun/bow shot, so even though it's an "action" move it's not really enough for the action players, but then does it mean that only ranged precision shots can be considered "action"? And the game's requirement for you to aim precisely then determines how "action" the game is? Cause iirc BDO's bows have soft tab, right? So would that mean that BDO is barely even an action game? My mind just doesn't seem to work in a way where it sees the difference between an action ability in a tab game and a whole game full of action abilities that seemingly function in the same way, yet people complain that those abilities are not "action" or that they don't contribute towards the game being a hybrid. Would a high-skill reticle-based ranged-weapon-only heal be considered a proper "action" ability then? Cause ironically enough even NW had fucking tab targeting for their healing (unless they added a ranged reticle heal after the release). That's cause action combat healing(In my opinion as a healer/support main) is awful. I've never seen it done in a way that is better(satisfying?) than tab target. Healing is always good but it doesn't always feel good. The problem with action healing specifically is the lack of priority targeting. It's really easy to say just make it a skill shot or make it an AoE which is either boring or just feels bad when you have a lot of players involved. I mean specifically AoE healing feels unsatisfying to heal one target. Skill shot healing struggles once you add enough people to something like a raid or a siege. What I'm saying is no one has really solved the problem of action healing feeling bad compared to tab target. This is the opposite of how I feel, tab just requires you to click a nameplate and press a button, takes less skill. I'll say I agree with Sybil. Tab healing is often much more complex with a good healer in a well designed game being required to make a lot of decisions moment to moment about what skill to use, when, on whom, or maybe target a boss/mob with something. And even in older games combat was fast paced enough with enough happening to different players in my party, and various mobs/boss actions, or enemy player actions, that there are a lot of such decisions to make to keep me thinking. Healing is very much a thinking game. And what to do and how to play is very dynamic which is what makes it so fun. But it also requires a deep knowledge of your class instead of a lot of DPS who can get away with basics like "What is my rotation". A good tab healer doesn't really have a rotation and needs to effectively go through a decision tree in their head in a fraction of a second when someone needs healing. Of course it's easy to be a bad tab healer and just press buttons, but then people die more often and you're often unable to get through difficult or unexpected situations. Or you find your group pulling less mobs, or playing it safer in other ways, or the bad healer might have to drink more often, etc. "Getting by" sure, but not well. But a good healer in a group is evident to most players as they're capable of much more, and as the healer, that challenge is much more interesting than most action. It's why while I would love if they could do some really good action skills, I wouldn't be upset if we had to stick with tab plus templated AoEs, because it's the better choice than doing poorly designed action. By far. Even vanilla WoW/now Classic Era requires me to think more about healing than most action combat games. The only exceptions are as you know TERA, and I'd say something like New World. But not because New World requires much decision making (it doesn't - it's quite simple), it just has a lot of mechanical skill required. But most action combat games just throw a lot of AoEs at us which removes most of the decisions required and as Sybil mentioned, one of those is priority targeting. If I just plop down AoEs, that's incredibly boring and a bot could do it. Few action games have targeted healing outside of a few. TERA did it exceptionally well. New World did it exceptionally poorly. Don't get me started on how clunky their targeting system is and how the low, close camera angle makes it worse. Then you have games like ESO that just auto target the lowest HP target, or closest, or whatever. Again, removes any decision making from me. It's the ultimate hurr durr press button do good. But in comparison, look at TERA where the majority of my healing was targeted healing. And the AoEs I had that were any good and at all worth using, were very tiny 5m AoEs. One was a targeted AoE on a CD, so this was a targeted spell as well. But to heal anyone else with it they had to be in melee range of my target (and I couldn't spam it like many other action games let you do - it had a 20 second CD). The other good AoE was stuck to my feet, so I had to put myself, a squishy cloth healer, in harm's way to find a clump of friendlies in melee range of each other to heal. And also worth mentioning is this game had collision which many did not, so you could only fit so many people in a tiny 5m range circle. Even the AoEs in TERA had limits that required skill and decision on my part as well as on the part of my team. You have never played Darkfall Unholy wars, that healing was fun. Tab healing hasn’t been hard in any game I’ve played.
Leiloni wrote: » Solvryn wrote: » Sybil_Lanel wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Azherae wrote: » It's that if the reticle does not NEED to be aimed there's balance issues for some. This is why I'm gonna try tera. BDO was an aoe fest and outside of guns in NW, iirc, it was the same. And we've seen that Ashes will have cone aoes too, so that's "action". I guess placing a thing on the ground requires less precision than a gun/bow shot, so even though it's an "action" move it's not really enough for the action players, but then does it mean that only ranged precision shots can be considered "action"? And the game's requirement for you to aim precisely then determines how "action" the game is? Cause iirc BDO's bows have soft tab, right? So would that mean that BDO is barely even an action game? My mind just doesn't seem to work in a way where it sees the difference between an action ability in a tab game and a whole game full of action abilities that seemingly function in the same way, yet people complain that those abilities are not "action" or that they don't contribute towards the game being a hybrid. Would a high-skill reticle-based ranged-weapon-only heal be considered a proper "action" ability then? Cause ironically enough even NW had fucking tab targeting for their healing (unless they added a ranged reticle heal after the release). That's cause action combat healing(In my opinion as a healer/support main) is awful. I've never seen it done in a way that is better(satisfying?) than tab target. Healing is always good but it doesn't always feel good. The problem with action healing specifically is the lack of priority targeting. It's really easy to say just make it a skill shot or make it an AoE which is either boring or just feels bad when you have a lot of players involved. I mean specifically AoE healing feels unsatisfying to heal one target. Skill shot healing struggles once you add enough people to something like a raid or a siege. What I'm saying is no one has really solved the problem of action healing feeling bad compared to tab target. This is the opposite of how I feel, tab just requires you to click a nameplate and press a button, takes less skill. I'll say I agree with Sybil. Tab healing is often much more complex with a good healer in a well designed game being required to make a lot of decisions moment to moment about what skill to use, when, on whom, or maybe target a boss/mob with something. And even in older games combat was fast paced enough with enough happening to different players in my party, and various mobs/boss actions, or enemy player actions, that there are a lot of such decisions to make to keep me thinking. Healing is very much a thinking game. And what to do and how to play is very dynamic which is what makes it so fun. But it also requires a deep knowledge of your class instead of a lot of DPS who can get away with basics like "What is my rotation". A good tab healer doesn't really have a rotation and needs to effectively go through a decision tree in their head in a fraction of a second when someone needs healing. Of course it's easy to be a bad tab healer and just press buttons, but then people die more often and you're often unable to get through difficult or unexpected situations. Or you find your group pulling less mobs, or playing it safer in other ways, or the bad healer might have to drink more often, etc. "Getting by" sure, but not well. But a good healer in a group is evident to most players as they're capable of much more, and as the healer, that challenge is much more interesting than most action. It's why while I would love if they could do some really good action skills, I wouldn't be upset if we had to stick with tab plus templated AoEs, because it's the better choice than doing poorly designed action. By far. Even vanilla WoW/now Classic Era requires me to think more about healing than most action combat games. The only exceptions are as you know TERA, and I'd say something like New World. But not because New World requires much decision making (it doesn't - it's quite simple), it just has a lot of mechanical skill required. But most action combat games just throw a lot of AoEs at us which removes most of the decisions required and as Sybil mentioned, one of those is priority targeting. If I just plop down AoEs, that's incredibly boring and a bot could do it. Few action games have targeted healing outside of a few. TERA did it exceptionally well. New World did it exceptionally poorly. Don't get me started on how clunky their targeting system is and how the low, close camera angle makes it worse. Then you have games like ESO that just auto target the lowest HP target, or closest, or whatever. Again, removes any decision making from me. It's the ultimate hurr durr press button do good. But in comparison, look at TERA where the majority of my healing was targeted healing. And the AoEs I had that were any good and at all worth using, were very tiny 5m AoEs. One was a targeted AoE on a CD, so this was a targeted spell as well. But to heal anyone else with it they had to be in melee range of my target (and I couldn't spam it like many other action games let you do - it had a 20 second CD). The other good AoE was stuck to my feet, so I had to put myself, a squishy cloth healer, in harm's way to find a clump of friendlies in melee range of each other to heal. And also worth mentioning is this game had collision which many did not, so you could only fit so many people in a tiny 5m range circle. Even the AoEs in TERA had limits that required skill and decision on my part as well as on the part of my team.
Solvryn wrote: » Sybil_Lanel wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Azherae wrote: » It's that if the reticle does not NEED to be aimed there's balance issues for some. This is why I'm gonna try tera. BDO was an aoe fest and outside of guns in NW, iirc, it was the same. And we've seen that Ashes will have cone aoes too, so that's "action". I guess placing a thing on the ground requires less precision than a gun/bow shot, so even though it's an "action" move it's not really enough for the action players, but then does it mean that only ranged precision shots can be considered "action"? And the game's requirement for you to aim precisely then determines how "action" the game is? Cause iirc BDO's bows have soft tab, right? So would that mean that BDO is barely even an action game? My mind just doesn't seem to work in a way where it sees the difference between an action ability in a tab game and a whole game full of action abilities that seemingly function in the same way, yet people complain that those abilities are not "action" or that they don't contribute towards the game being a hybrid. Would a high-skill reticle-based ranged-weapon-only heal be considered a proper "action" ability then? Cause ironically enough even NW had fucking tab targeting for their healing (unless they added a ranged reticle heal after the release). That's cause action combat healing(In my opinion as a healer/support main) is awful. I've never seen it done in a way that is better(satisfying?) than tab target. Healing is always good but it doesn't always feel good. The problem with action healing specifically is the lack of priority targeting. It's really easy to say just make it a skill shot or make it an AoE which is either boring or just feels bad when you have a lot of players involved. I mean specifically AoE healing feels unsatisfying to heal one target. Skill shot healing struggles once you add enough people to something like a raid or a siege. What I'm saying is no one has really solved the problem of action healing feeling bad compared to tab target. This is the opposite of how I feel, tab just requires you to click a nameplate and press a button, takes less skill.
Sybil_Lanel wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Azherae wrote: » It's that if the reticle does not NEED to be aimed there's balance issues for some. This is why I'm gonna try tera. BDO was an aoe fest and outside of guns in NW, iirc, it was the same. And we've seen that Ashes will have cone aoes too, so that's "action". I guess placing a thing on the ground requires less precision than a gun/bow shot, so even though it's an "action" move it's not really enough for the action players, but then does it mean that only ranged precision shots can be considered "action"? And the game's requirement for you to aim precisely then determines how "action" the game is? Cause iirc BDO's bows have soft tab, right? So would that mean that BDO is barely even an action game? My mind just doesn't seem to work in a way where it sees the difference between an action ability in a tab game and a whole game full of action abilities that seemingly function in the same way, yet people complain that those abilities are not "action" or that they don't contribute towards the game being a hybrid. Would a high-skill reticle-based ranged-weapon-only heal be considered a proper "action" ability then? Cause ironically enough even NW had fucking tab targeting for their healing (unless they added a ranged reticle heal after the release). That's cause action combat healing(In my opinion as a healer/support main) is awful. I've never seen it done in a way that is better(satisfying?) than tab target. Healing is always good but it doesn't always feel good. The problem with action healing specifically is the lack of priority targeting. It's really easy to say just make it a skill shot or make it an AoE which is either boring or just feels bad when you have a lot of players involved. I mean specifically AoE healing feels unsatisfying to heal one target. Skill shot healing struggles once you add enough people to something like a raid or a siege. What I'm saying is no one has really solved the problem of action healing feeling bad compared to tab target.
NiKr wrote: » Azherae wrote: » It's that if the reticle does not NEED to be aimed there's balance issues for some. This is why I'm gonna try tera. BDO was an aoe fest and outside of guns in NW, iirc, it was the same. And we've seen that Ashes will have cone aoes too, so that's "action". I guess placing a thing on the ground requires less precision than a gun/bow shot, so even though it's an "action" move it's not really enough for the action players, but then does it mean that only ranged precision shots can be considered "action"? And the game's requirement for you to aim precisely then determines how "action" the game is? Cause iirc BDO's bows have soft tab, right? So would that mean that BDO is barely even an action game? My mind just doesn't seem to work in a way where it sees the difference between an action ability in a tab game and a whole game full of action abilities that seemingly function in the same way, yet people complain that those abilities are not "action" or that they don't contribute towards the game being a hybrid. Would a high-skill reticle-based ranged-weapon-only heal be considered a proper "action" ability then? Cause ironically enough even NW had fucking tab targeting for their healing (unless they added a ranged reticle heal after the release).
Azherae wrote: » It's that if the reticle does not NEED to be aimed there's balance issues for some.
Ravicus wrote: » I think target healing is far superior as gameplay to tab targeting. Tab targeting just seems lazy to me.
Noaani wrote: » Ravicus wrote: » I think target healing is far superior as gameplay to tab targeting. Tab targeting just seems lazy to me. Why "WoW healing with addons" when WoW healing without addons is literally tab target healing?
Ravicus wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Ravicus wrote: » I think target healing is far superior as gameplay to tab targeting. Tab targeting just seems lazy to me. Why "WoW healing with addons" when WoW healing without addons is literally tab target healing? Ya, but who plays wow without add ons these days?
Noaani wrote: » Ravicus wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Ravicus wrote: » I think target healing is far superior as gameplay to tab targeting. Tab targeting just seems lazy to me. Why "WoW healing with addons" when WoW healing without addons is literally tab target healing? Ya, but who plays wow without add ons these days? Not the point. You are saying tab healing is shit and easy, and like WoW healing with addons - despite the fact that WoW heights without those ad ons is tab target healing, and as you see to be suggesting, people find that too hard. Tab target healing is not like WoW healing with ad ons, it is like WoW healing without add ons
Ravicus wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Ravicus wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Ravicus wrote: » I think target healing is far superior as gameplay to tab targeting. Tab targeting just seems lazy to me. Why "WoW healing with addons" when WoW healing without addons is literally tab target healing? Ya, but who plays wow without add ons these days? Not the point. You are saying tab healing is shit and easy, and like WoW healing with addons - despite the fact that WoW heights without those ad ons is tab target healing, and as you see to be suggesting, people find that too hard. Tab target healing is not like WoW healing with ad ons, it is like WoW healing without add ons also the point is that I was only using one thing in wow as an example, you just had to add in more derailing the convo, and I do not want to make 50 posts arguing with you about something so dumb.
Noaani wrote: » Ravicus wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Ravicus wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Ravicus wrote: » I think target healing is far superior as gameplay to tab targeting. Tab targeting just seems lazy to me. Why "WoW healing with addons" when WoW healing without addons is literally tab target healing? Ya, but who plays wow without add ons these days? Not the point. You are saying tab healing is shit and easy, and like WoW healing with addons - despite the fact that WoW heights without those ad ons is tab target healing, and as you see to be suggesting, people find that too hard. Tab target healing is not like WoW healing with ad ons, it is like WoW healing without add ons also the point is that I was only using one thing in wow as an example, you just had to add in more derailing the convo, and I do not want to make 50 posts arguing with you about something so dumb. You were trying to compare tab target healing to the worst healing gamplay you could think of. I'm happy if you don't want to continue a post about something so dumb, but my suggestion is to just not post the dumb thing to start with. I mean, you literally said you think tab target healing would be akin to altered tab target healing. Think before you post, my dude.
Depraved wrote: » didnt you feel bad if your target needed that heal and died?xD
Dygz wrote: » Depraved wrote: » didnt you feel bad if your target needed that heal and died?xD It’s like rolling a 1. Sometimes shit happens. 🤷🏾♂️
