Levelling and what goes with it

1. Reset skill points
Levelling increases skill points. Resetting skill points is possible, but how often and at what cost? Skill points are one of the things that can be reset, but I think it would be a bad idea to be able to change skill points anytime, anywhere. An unlimited reset for Alpha - Beta, ok.
But once the game is up and running, in my opinion, skill resets should only be possible through quests that require materials and that will keep the trade going. The idea is to keep in mind that characters are semi-permanent and reflect an in-game identity.
This identity is very important in a PvP game, and it's quite frustrating when an enemy uses a different skill tree every 2 hours, as it impacts on strategy.

2. Leveling and secondary archetype
I am not convinced that we should be able to change our secondary archetype after level 25. I think it should be forever.
But if changing archetype is part of the game's core and if the majority agree with that, then I'm all for a long, complicated quest that requires a significant number of materials. For the same reasons as resetting skill points (semi-permanent decisions, keeping the economy healthy and for all items, levels and zones).

3. Levelling and gear
"There are no stat requirements for equipping gear, but there are affiliation and level requirements" according to Steven. But this point, I need your help to understand.
Does this mean that the equipment will have a minimum level to be equipped, but will remain unique? Or does it mean that equipment with a minimum level is not unique, but exists ad infinitum at all levels?
Imagine a sword called "Sword of Chaos", portable from lvl 30 upwards. Is this sword unique and exists only at level 30? Or can I find a better copy of this same sword at level 31, 35 or 40?
I ask because I think it's a shame to have a rare or legendary item at level 30 that will already be obsolete by the time I reach level 31. Whereas if the item only exists at level 30, it will be much more interesting.
This also ties in with the next point (Level cap). The faster you level, the less interesting weapons below level 50 become. So in the end, the longer the leveling, the healthier the economy. Ideally, some rare level 30 items should still be of interest, even at level 50.
I don't know if I'm making myself clear...

4. Visibility of level/progession
Steven want to keep a part of mistery but the level will be visible. Is this component still relevant today? Why not keep it a complete mystery? In my opinion, the level should only be visible if a player is a member of a group/guild, but invisible to strangers.
As some equipment/weapons have a unique skin, it's possible to get an idea of what a player is wearing, and thus assess his or her power. This is also why I'm against cosmetic items that totally change a player's appearance, making it impossible to guess what he's wearing.
After that, I'm not opposed to the existence of skills for certain classes that allow you to analyze a character and find out more about his level.

5. Level cap 45 days
The max level can be reached in 45 days. I am aware that the content of the game is not levelling and that there are dozens of other activities necessary to progress. But 45 days is far too short! Why rush levelling? In my opinion, levelling time should be exponential (much more exponential). For example, 45 days to reach level 30-35, but the last 20-15 levels should be extremely long, so that there's no max level for at least 6 months. The idea is that levelling should be one activity among others, and not the main, priority activity of every day, which will push rush level 50 before the rest.

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Kilion

Myosotys wrote: »

Kilion wrote: »

Myosotys wrote: »

1. Reset skill points
Levelling increases skill points. Resetting skill points is possible, but how often and at what cost? Skill points are one of the things that can be reset, but I think it would be a bad idea to be able to change skill points anytime, anywhere. An unlimited reset for Alpha - Beta, ok.
But once the game is up and running, in my opinion, skill resets should only be possible through quests that require materials and that will keep the trade going. The idea is to keep in mind that characters are semi-permanent and reflect an in-game identity.
This identity is very important in a PvP game, and it's quite frustrating when an enemy uses a different skill tree every 2 hours, as it impacts on strategy.

Agreed there should be costs associated with changing skill points but as far as I am aware this has been mentioned alongside the Node system as a religion associated feature, which will require quests and/or favor to be accessible.

Myosotys wrote: »

2. Leveling and secondary archetype
I am not convinced that we should be able to change our secondary archetype after level 25. I think it should be forever.
But if changing archetype is part of the game's core and if the majority agree with that, then I'm all for a long, complicated quest that requires a significant number of materials. For the same reasons as resetting skill points (semi-permanent decisions, keeping the economy healthy and for all items, levels and zones).

Strong disagreement. The very purpose of players being able to change their secondary archetype is to adapt to a world that is constantly changing around them. Along with that change come new requirements for equipment and also the necessity for new structures to be built - revitalizing influences for an economy. The idea of linearity and stability have become quite popular in economics IRL, but reality is that change is very nature of economy, as "economy" only is a fancy word for "observing peoples decision on how to spend their resources" and humans most definitely are creatures that change a lot.

The changability of the secondary archetype in my opinion is a vital cornerstone to help players adjust to the circumstances in the world as in their playergroup.

Myosotys wrote: »

3. Levelling and gear
"There are no stat requirements for equipping gear, but there are affiliation and level requirements" according to Steven. But this point, I need your help to understand.
Does this mean that the equipment will have a minimum level to be equipped, but will remain unique? Or does it mean that equipment with a minimum level is not unique, but exists ad infinitum at all levels?
Imagine a sword called "Sword of Chaos", portable from lvl 30 upwards. Is this sword unique and exists only at level 30? Or can I find a better copy of this same sword at level 31, 35 or 40?
I ask because I think it's a shame to have a rare or legendary item at level 30 that will already be obsolete by the time I reach level 31. Whereas if the item only exists at level 30, it will be much more interesting.
This also ties in with the next point (Level cap). The faster you level, the less interesting weapons below level 50 become. So in the end, the longer the leveling, the healthier the economy. Ideally, some rare level 30 items should still be of interest, even at level 50.
I don't know if I'm making myself clear...

I would think that there will be legendary weapons that can be "reforged" for higher levels. From what I've read in the Wiki it surely sounds to me like we will be able to obtain blueprints that will produce unique weapons, with unique skins and a specific, unique skill associated with that items history, while depending on the smiths rank, the stat buffs might be different (and with it the level requirement).

Regarding the usefulness of such items, I doubt that a high quality item like this will be instantly outclassed by an item with a level requirement slightly higher than it's own.

In general I have the distinct suspicion that it will be that case that player during most of their leveling time will wear a mix of "brand new" gear (that they couldn't have worn any earlier due to level requirements) and old armor. The whole concept of Ashes doesn't strike me as very WoW-like "new level, new gear in 24 seconds". For things like gear to matter again, it will have to be more scarce and each piece will have to be more impactful for the characters power. We will see how far this is possible with gear making up around 40% of a characters overall power.

Myosotys wrote: »

4. Visibility of level/progession
Steven want to keep a part of mistery but the level will be visible. Is this component still relevant today? Why not keep it a complete mystery? In my opinion, the level should only be visible if a player is a member of a group/guild, but invisible to strangers.
As some equipment/weapons have a unique skin, it's possible to get an idea of what a player is wearing, and thus assess his or her power. This is also why I'm against cosmetic items that totally change a player's appearance, making it impossible to guess what he's wearing.
After that, I'm not opposed to the existence of skills for certain classes that allow you to analyze a character and find out more about his level.

Very good idea, that would be very interesting, especially when it comes to cross level interactions. Players of higher levels and Head Hunters in particular would have an incentive to provide ingame accessible skins (and compensation) to low level players as bait so to speak to corrupt others by killing a seriously underleveled character.

Tons of interesting dynamics would be possible if we indeed had to gauge the opponents power without given specific numbers.

Myosotys wrote: »

5. Level cap 45 days
The max level can be reached in 45 days. I am aware that the content of the game is not levelling and that there are dozens of other activities necessary to progress. But 45 days is far too short! Why rush levelling? In my opinion, levelling time should be exponential (much more exponential). For example, 45 days to reach level 30-35, but the last 20-15 levels should be extremely long, so that there's no max level for at least 6 months. The idea is that levelling should be one activity among others, and not the main, priority activity of every day, which will push rush level 50 before the rest.

I think its fine given that a key resource will be a character reputation with factions and nodes which will not be strongly rewarded in a "level up rush". Especially, since the game will reward exploration while limiting the functionality of traditional level guides by changing what is available at times. Of course we still need to test these systems but I think the basic idea is good enough.

3. Levelling and gear

The important thing is that INTREPID succeeds in restoring the original meaning of the words uncommon, rare, epic and legendary

4. Visibility of level/progession

I would love to wear noob gear to look level 5 and kill a FPK trying to kill me without becoming corrupted )))

3. Levelling and gear

I'm fairly confident that Intrepid is aware that games like WoW have ruined the meaning of especially epic and legendary equipment in their particular game loop.

But I think there is one thing to keep in mind: The more stable a servers Node, the more epic and legendary gear there will be. Once war breaks out, new Nodes emerge and get into wars of succession with each other, new equipment will render the gear of the "old meta" less useful - not completely waste but PvP gear will need different stats than e.g. the PvE gear which was focused on raiding the Tower of Carphin and Volcano dungeons that the old Tier 6 Nodes opened.
If I am right that this is Intrepids intent, what we might see is high and low tides regarding gear quality, depending on the speed of change on servers - if we have somewhat equally strong factions fighting each other, gear quality will automatically drop through destruction of nodes, high danger when collecting resources, less access to those resources and the need for quick adaption to the enemy forces. Servers with lots of change might see guild treasuries filled with crazy legendary heirlooms from all the epic changes the servers has gone through, while more static servers will see armies of "younger" players fight to take down the old, insanely powerful guilds that have dominated and stabilized the server.

Suffice to say: PvE will create incentives for PvP and PvP will create incentives for PvE. A lot is possible but my suspicion is it will be up to players to determine what will be the case on their particular server - and quite frankly the variety the systems make possible has me thrilled about this game, servers could be feeling so vastly different depending on their players, having their own reputation from merit rather than Intrepids design.

4. Visibility of level/progession

To my knowledge that should be somewhat possible even without concealing ones level, but it would certainly be an improvement for ones disguise.

Depraved

Myosotys wrote: »

Raven016 wrote: »

Regarding 5, would be cool to have the incentive to level up slowly and enjoy each stage. But this is so only for PvEers who do not care about being rich or defending their nodes.
PvPers want to become effective as fast as possible. And everyone who want a freehold will also rush to level up to get one.

I cannot imagine an incentive to level up slowly if others can up level faster... Or it's for every one, or for no one.
It would be kind of weird in a PvP MMO to level up slower than others just because you like it. No one can agree with that

I used to play some MMO where the last levels were very long, it was kind of pushing players to do something else than PEX till max level. For example in Ragnarok online (one of my favorite game), the majority of players were level 90+ but not 99 and they were competitive in PvP. At the same time, they still had a goal of max level on the long term. The guy level 99 was kind of respected for his level 99 and his shiny aura surrounding him.

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Agree, 45 days is plenty for leveling … and Steven has been pretty forthcoming about not wanting to change that.

Don't forget that 45 days is for an average gamer playing 4-6 hours a day. Some other guys will certainly reach 45 in one week. It means also that everyone will rush 45 to be competitive in PvP. Ultimately, exponential leveling reduces the gap between the casual player and the try-hard gamer.

cant reach max level in a week (unless you exploit something). you will get shit exp if nodes arent leveled up (in theory)...

maybe if start the game after there are metropolis, you might reach max level in 2 weeks, and it takes several weeks for a node to become a metropolis...

Myosotys

Depraved wrote: »

Myosotys wrote: »

Raven016 wrote: »

Regarding 5, would be cool to have the incentive to level up slowly and enjoy each stage. But this is so only for PvEers who do not care about being rich or defending their nodes.
PvPers want to become effective as fast as possible. And everyone who want a freehold will also rush to level up to get one.

I cannot imagine an incentive to level up slowly if others can up level faster... Or it's for every one, or for no one.
It would be kind of weird in a PvP MMO to level up slower than others just because you like it. No one can agree with that

I used to play some MMO where the last levels were very long, it was kind of pushing players to do something else than PEX till max level. For example in Ragnarok online (one of my favorite game), the majority of players were level 90+ but not 99 and they were competitive in PvP. At the same time, they still had a goal of max level on the long term. The guy level 99 was kind of respected for his level 99 and his shiny aura surrounding him.

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Agree, 45 days is plenty for leveling … and Steven has been pretty forthcoming about not wanting to change that.

Don't forget that 45 days is for an average gamer playing 4-6 hours a day. Some other guys will certainly reach 45 in one week. It means also that everyone will rush 45 to be competitive in PvP. Ultimately, exponential leveling reduces the gap between the casual player and the try-hard gamer.

cant reach max level in a week (unless you exploit something). you will get shit exp if nodes arent leveled up (in theory)...

maybe if start the game after there are metropolis, you might reach max level in 2 weeks, and it takes several weeks for a node to become a metropolis...

Ok, let's tell two weeks. It's way too short.

Percimes

Myosotys wrote: »

Don't forget that 45 days is for an average gamer playing 4-6 hours a day. Some other guys will certainly reach 45 in one week. It means also that everyone will rush 45 to be competitive in PvP. Ultimately, exponential leveling reduces the gap between the casual player and the try-hard gamer.

Mathematically impossible.
6 hours x 45 days = 270 hours
270 hours / 24 hours/day = 11,25 days (11 days and 6 hours)
1 week = 7 days < 11,25 days.

And that's by playing 24 hours per day. But we get your point: some will progress much more quickly than others.

Depraved

Myosotys wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Myosotys wrote: »

Raven016 wrote: »

Regarding 5, would be cool to have the incentive to level up slowly and enjoy each stage. But this is so only for PvEers who do not care about being rich or defending their nodes.
PvPers want to become effective as fast as possible. And everyone who want a freehold will also rush to level up to get one.

I cannot imagine an incentive to level up slowly if others can up level faster... Or it's for every one, or for no one.
It would be kind of weird in a PvP MMO to level up slower than others just because you like it. No one can agree with that

I used to play some MMO where the last levels were very long, it was kind of pushing players to do something else than PEX till max level. For example in Ragnarok online (one of my favorite game), the majority of players were level 90+ but not 99 and they were competitive in PvP. At the same time, they still had a goal of max level on the long term. The guy level 99 was kind of respected for his level 99 and his shiny aura surrounding him.

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Agree, 45 days is plenty for leveling … and Steven has been pretty forthcoming about not wanting to change that.

Don't forget that 45 days is for an average gamer playing 4-6 hours a day. Some other guys will certainly reach 45 in one week. It means also that everyone will rush 45 to be competitive in PvP. Ultimately, exponential leveling reduces the gap between the casual player and the try-hard gamer.

cant reach max level in a week (unless you exploit something). you will get shit exp if nodes arent leveled up (in theory)...

maybe if start the game after there are metropolis, you might reach max level in 2 weeks, and it takes several weeks for a node to become a metropolis...

Ok, let's tell two weeks. It's way too short.

not even 2 weeks bruh. we have explained you this before. you cant level up if nodes arent leveled. well you could, but imagine having to level up killing monsters 10 levels below you and getting less than 1 exp per kill and you needing a million for 1 level.

exp in ashes is tied up to nodes development.

Dygz

Why does it matter if you reach max Adventurer level in 2 weeks?
What do you think you will be doing at max Adventurer level while you wait for Nodes to progress to Stage 6?
You can't even occupy a Castle 2 weeks in. Castle Sieges occur every 4 weeks.

Kilion

Dygz wrote: »

Why does it matter if you reach max Adventurer level in 2 weeks?
What do you think you will be doing at max Adventurer level while you wait for Nodes to progress to Stage 6?
You can't even occupy a Castle 2 weeks in. Castle Sieges occur every 4 weeks.

It's even worse, castles are occupied by NPCs that are villians in the story line and basically function as a raid dungeon. Even if someone rushes to level 50 in 2 weeks - they are not a raid. They will have to wait for players, their gear, the story and nodes to catch up before they can go to war against these Kings and Queens.

As stated before, there is reason to believe that rushing numbers in Ashes will be nor half as rewarding as in other games.

Raven016

Dygz wrote: »

Why does it matter if you reach max Adventurer level in 2 weeks?
What do you think you will be doing at max Adventurer level while you wait for Nodes to progress to Stage 6?
You can't even occupy a Castle 2 weeks in. Castle Sieges occur every 4 weeks.

The Max Adventurer could skillshot throwing daggers !!

( I should insert a gif here but I don't have any

)

Dygz

Kilion wrote: »

It's even worse, castles are occupied by NPCs that are villians in the story line and basically function as a raid dungeon. Even if someone rushes to level 50 in 2 weeks - they are not a raid. They will have to wait for players, their gear, the story and nodes to catch up before they can go to war against these Kings and Queens.

As stated before, there is reason to believe that rushing numbers in Ashes will be nor half as rewarding as in other games.

The fix for that is to not rush to max Adventurer Level.
But, once you've done that, there's still Social Org progression and Religion progression and Racial progression and Artisan progression to max out.

Spif

The "steepness" of the vertical progression curve matters a lot for how fast you will replace your gear. In WoW and many other games, you get a nice blue while levelling and in a few levels it's not even as good as a green. Discarded.

If the level of an item matters less than it's rarity (for stats and DPS), then you could be a L25 using a L20 blue item, because the L20 blue is still better than a L25 green. To turn it into a numbers game:

Imagine if a green level 10 sword had a DPS of 10, and a green level 11 sword had a DPS on 10.2, IE, item power grows 2% per level. Then a green L15 sword would have a DPS of 11.

Now, if a blue L10 sword has a DPS of 12 (IE, a blue item has a 20% stat increase over a same-level green), then it wouldn't be overshadowed by a green until L20 when the green would have a DPS of 12.2)

The above shows gradual vertical progression for item levels, but fairly steep progression via rarity.

I personally hate endless vertical progression via ilvl. Let me get my gear setup and do other things. IE, limited vertical progression, then horizontal for all the other things in a game. Skill points in ESO was a decent example of that. You could get enough skill points to max your build easy enough. But with more skill points you could fully skill alternate weapons or spell lines to swap in skills for different situations.

Myosotys

Spif wrote: »

The "steepness" of the vertical progression curve matters a lot for how fast you will replace your gear. In WoW and many other games, you get a nice blue while levelling and in a few levels it's not even as good as a green. Discarded.

If the level of an item matters less than it's rarity (for stats and DPS), then you could be a L25 using a L20 blue item, because the L20 blue is still better than a L25 green. To turn it into a numbers game:

Imagine if a green level 10 sword had a DPS of 10, and a green level 11 sword had a DPS on 10.2, IE, item power grows 2% per level. Then a green L15 sword would have a DPS of 11.

Now, if a blue L10 sword has a DPS of 12 (IE, a blue item has a 20% stat increase over a same-level green), then it wouldn't be overshadowed by a green until L20 when the green would have a DPS of 12.2)

The above shows gradual vertical progression for item levels, but fairly steep progression via rarity.

I personally hate endless vertical progression via ilvl. Let me get my gear setup and do other things. IE, limited vertical progression, then horizontal for all the other things in a game. Skill points in ESO was a decent example of that. You could get enough skill points to max your build easy enough. But with more skill points you could fully skill alternate weapons or spell lines to swap in skills for different situations.

I understand your point but if the leveling is fast (in the case of AOC, 6 weeks to reach max level), no one will spend money to buy a low level rare gear. Except if the rare low level items can be salvage for end game material.

Im also not a big fan of grinding levels. But a bad economy is worst than grinding.

Dygz

Again... this seems to mean max Adventurer level.
I expect to be pursuing different gear as I strive to reach max Social Org level, max Religion level and maybe even max Racial level.
Unlikely people will have all of those progression paths maxed in 6 weeks. Especially since some of those will require Metros.

Depraved

Myosotys wrote: »

Spif wrote: »

The "steepness" of the vertical progression curve matters a lot for how fast you will replace your gear. In WoW and many other games, you get a nice blue while levelling and in a few levels it's not even as good as a green. Discarded.

If the level of an item matters less than it's rarity (for stats and DPS), then you could be a L25 using a L20 blue item, because the L20 blue is still better than a L25 green. To turn it into a numbers game:

Imagine if a green level 10 sword had a DPS of 10, and a green level 11 sword had a DPS on 10.2, IE, item power grows 2% per level. Then a green L15 sword would have a DPS of 11.

Now, if a blue L10 sword has a DPS of 12 (IE, a blue item has a 20% stat increase over a same-level green), then it wouldn't be overshadowed by a green until L20 when the green would have a DPS of 12.2)

The above shows gradual vertical progression for item levels, but fairly steep progression via rarity.

I personally hate endless vertical progression via ilvl. Let me get my gear setup and do other things. IE, limited vertical progression, then horizontal for all the other things in a game. Skill points in ESO was a decent example of that. You could get enough skill points to max your build easy enough. But with more skill points you could fully skill alternate weapons or spell lines to swap in skills for different situations.

Im also not a big fan of grinding levels. But a bad economy is worst than grinding.

huh but you want leveling to take long..which translates into grinding...

Raven016

Depraved wrote: »

Myosotys wrote: »

Spif wrote: »

The "steepness" of the vertical progression curve matters a lot for how fast you will replace your gear. In WoW and many other games, you get a nice blue while levelling and in a few levels it's not even as good as a green. Discarded.

If the level of an item matters less than it's rarity (for stats and DPS), then you could be a L25 using a L20 blue item, because the L20 blue is still better than a L25 green. To turn it into a numbers game:

Imagine if a green level 10 sword had a DPS of 10, and a green level 11 sword had a DPS on 10.2, IE, item power grows 2% per level. Then a green L15 sword would have a DPS of 11.

Now, if a blue L10 sword has a DPS of 12 (IE, a blue item has a 20% stat increase over a same-level green), then it wouldn't be overshadowed by a green until L20 when the green would have a DPS of 12.2)

The above shows gradual vertical progression for item levels, but fairly steep progression via rarity.

I personally hate endless vertical progression via ilvl. Let me get my gear setup and do other things. IE, limited vertical progression, then horizontal for all the other things in a game. Skill points in ESO was a decent example of that. You could get enough skill points to max your build easy enough. But with more skill points you could fully skill alternate weapons or spell lines to swap in skills for different situations.

Im also not a big fan of grinding levels. But a bad economy is worst than grinding.

huh but you want leveling to take long..which translates into grinding...

only if you grind...

Depraved

Raven016 wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Myosotys wrote: »

Spif wrote: »

The "steepness" of the vertical progression curve matters a lot for how fast you will replace your gear. In WoW and many other games, you get a nice blue while levelling and in a few levels it's not even as good as a green. Discarded.

If the level of an item matters less than it's rarity (for stats and DPS), then you could be a L25 using a L20 blue item, because the L20 blue is still better than a L25 green. To turn it into a numbers game:

Imagine if a green level 10 sword had a DPS of 10, and a green level 11 sword had a DPS on 10.2, IE, item power grows 2% per level. Then a green L15 sword would have a DPS of 11.

Now, if a blue L10 sword has a DPS of 12 (IE, a blue item has a 20% stat increase over a same-level green), then it wouldn't be overshadowed by a green until L20 when the green would have a DPS of 12.2)

The above shows gradual vertical progression for item levels, but fairly steep progression via rarity.

I personally hate endless vertical progression via ilvl. Let me get my gear setup and do other things. IE, limited vertical progression, then horizontal for all the other things in a game. Skill points in ESO was a decent example of that. You could get enough skill points to max your build easy enough. But with more skill points you could fully skill alternate weapons or spell lines to swap in skills for different situations.

Im also not a big fan of grinding levels. But a bad economy is worst than grinding.

huh but you want leveling to take long..which translates into grinding...

only if you grind...

how will you level then? i like grinding mobs. i prefer it over grinding quests.

Roxi

Raven016 wrote: »

The Max Adventurer could skillshot throwing daggers !!

( I should insert a gif here but I don't have any )

Bilbo Baggins do have some skill at conkers, if you must know...

Azherae

Addressing the Leveling And Gear part:

I do not mind if there is early rare gear that is desired by a non-trivial number of players but that does not have higher level, auto-obsoleting upgrades.

Going with the now-usual 'let's combine FFXI and L2', I would want:

1) some level 30-ish Elites and bosses drop rare gear/materials, with the chances of the drop being reduced as your level exceeds the mob
2) Those rare gear pieces (or level 30 gear made from the materials) have stats that generally aren't as vertically important, but can be conditionally useful in places
3) Those gear pieces can then be enhanced up to +whatever if you are really dedicated to having them as endgame options.

Economically I prefer this because it resolves the problem I understand from an L2 economy study, and the FFXI Notorious Monster hunting fault.

High level players who want this gear 'need' alts or friends to help get the base item, or the obscure ones that only very few people can be bothered to actually hunt, can be random open world challenges for small groups.
Then money flows from people who want these to enhance them, towards lower level players who are going out adventuring together (theoretically, again, this relies on the items not being meta for most people at higher level but still good).

If anything similar to this is the reality in Ashes, I wouldn't care about other aspects of 'what leveling causes' really.

Raven016

Depraved wrote: »

Raven016 wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Myosotys wrote: »

Spif wrote: »

The "steepness" of the vertical progression curve matters a lot for how fast you will replace your gear. In WoW and many other games, you get a nice blue while levelling and in a few levels it's not even as good as a green. Discarded.

If the level of an item matters less than it's rarity (for stats and DPS), then you could be a L25 using a L20 blue item, because the L20 blue is still better than a L25 green. To turn it into a numbers game:

Imagine if a green level 10 sword had a DPS of 10, and a green level 11 sword had a DPS on 10.2, IE, item power grows 2% per level. Then a green L15 sword would have a DPS of 11.

Now, if a blue L10 sword has a DPS of 12 (IE, a blue item has a 20% stat increase over a same-level green), then it wouldn't be overshadowed by a green until L20 when the green would have a DPS of 12.2)

The above shows gradual vertical progression for item levels, but fairly steep progression via rarity.

I personally hate endless vertical progression via ilvl. Let me get my gear setup and do other things. IE, limited vertical progression, then horizontal for all the other things in a game. Skill points in ESO was a decent example of that. You could get enough skill points to max your build easy enough. But with more skill points you could fully skill alternate weapons or spell lines to swap in skills for different situations.

Im also not a big fan of grinding levels. But a bad economy is worst than grinding.

huh but you want leveling to take long..which translates into grinding...

only if you grind...

how will you level then? i like grinding mobs. i prefer it over grinding quests.

Some people say if you like it, is not grind...
And then there is the Eve Online way of leveling.

Myosotys

Depraved wrote: »

Myosotys wrote: »

Spif wrote: »

The "steepness" of the vertical progression curve matters a lot for how fast you will replace your gear. In WoW and many other games, you get a nice blue while levelling and in a few levels it's not even as good as a green. Discarded.

If the level of an item matters less than it's rarity (for stats and DPS), then you could be a L25 using a L20 blue item, because the L20 blue is still better than a L25 green. To turn it into a numbers game:

Imagine if a green level 10 sword had a DPS of 10, and a green level 11 sword had a DPS on 10.2, IE, item power grows 2% per level. Then a green L15 sword would have a DPS of 11.

Now, if a blue L10 sword has a DPS of 12 (IE, a blue item has a 20% stat increase over a same-level green), then it wouldn't be overshadowed by a green until L20 when the green would have a DPS of 12.2)

The above shows gradual vertical progression for item levels, but fairly steep progression via rarity.

I personally hate endless vertical progression via ilvl. Let me get my gear setup and do other things. IE, limited vertical progression, then horizontal for all the other things in a game. Skill points in ESO was a decent example of that. You could get enough skill points to max your build easy enough. But with more skill points you could fully skill alternate weapons or spell lines to swap in skills for different situations.

Im also not a big fan of grinding levels. But a bad economy is worst than grinding.

huh but you want leveling to take long..which translates into grinding...

I never said that I wanted to grind at all costs. I said that longer leveling had positive effects on the rest of the game mechanics (Gameplay, economy, lifespan + social interactions as someone added).

You understand what you want to understand and attributing to me words that I have not said which in fact reflect your own interpretation.

It's different

Dygz

Depraved wrote: »

how will you level then? i like grinding mobs. i prefer it over grinding quests.

You don't really grind quests.
Grinding is leveling by killing individual mobs for relatively low amounts of xp.
Quests are designed to eliminate grind by giving significantly more xp (and gear) then one would receive just by killing individual mobs.
Reaching max Adventurer Level by completing quests should be much faster than just killing individual mobs.

Sure, in the last 10 years, once the concept of "Endgame is the real game" became popular... gamers extended grind to leveling... as an undesirable impediment to reaching the real fun of the "real" game.

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