Ground Targeted AOEs are not skillshots.

You don't shoot Divine Flare, you place it on the ground.

Skills shots, require that you shoot them.

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NiKr wrote: »

Solvryn wrote: »

Free-aim with a melee weapon? Am I throwing it?

New World has action melee, thought I don’t like the auto-snapping. Gives players a false impression they’re good.

Conq Blade is all action melee.

Darkfall, Darkfall Unholy Wars is action combat, all of it.

Valheim is action.

Souls games are action.

So Ashes has action combat as well, so it's a proper hybrid.

Solvryn wrote: »

I’ve known Intrepid will not have head shots and they will be normalized. I would like them to succeed in their hybrid combat but I have my doubts when all we have is some basic tab game

A basic tab game would not let you do any attack w/o a tab target present. I've played that kind of game for 12 years so I would know.

This is why I say that Ashes is a good hybrid, while you say that it's not even a hybrid game, because you're used to (or at least want) shooter mechanics.

Side by side, Ashes has GW2 combat, which is tab enhanced.

I’ve played the spectrum since the early 00s.

You keep saying “shooter” mechanics, Conquerors Blades combat system wouldn’t make a shooter. Neither would Darkfall, TERA, Valheim.

Ludullu

Solvryn wrote: »

Side by side, Ashes has GW2 combat, which is tab enhanced.

I’ve played the spectrum since the early 00s.

You keep saying “shooter” mechanics, Conquerors Blades combat system wouldn’t make a shooter. Neither would Darkfall, TERA, Valheim.

Is this not action combat?

https://youtu.be/t3LydR8VssY?t=369

Is half of the mage's skills' ability to be set off w/o a target not action combat?

https://youtu.be/OP-YMN2VXlw?t=438

Is you shooting an arrow w/o a target not action combat?

What exactly am I missing here? What would constitute "not a tab enhanced" game to you? Literally a game that is fully action combat? A game that has no tab at all?

Azherae

Armored Core 6 is true Hybrid Combat.

(it is also, now that I have played it, too fast for an MMO, as Dygz pointed out, my original opinion on that was based on previous AC games which were slower).

Everything else is clearly a semantics discussion waiting to happen.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

Armored Core 6 is true Hybrid Combat.

(it is also, now that I have played it, too fast for an MMO, as Dygz pointed out, my original opinion on that was based on previous AC games which were slower).

Everything else is clearly a semantics discussion waiting to happen.

Yep, I love AC6. It's fast as fuck, just as I like my games too. And I definitely agree that it's waaaay too fast for the majority of mmo players.

Is it hybrid though? Or are you making a joke there? Cause I don't think I've tried shooting the weapons w/o a target so I don't know

Solvryn

NiKr wrote: »

Solvryn wrote: »

Side by side, Ashes has GW2 combat, which is tab enhanced.

I’ve played the spectrum since the early 00s.

You keep saying “shooter” mechanics, Conquerors Blades combat system wouldn’t make a shooter. Neither would Darkfall, TERA, Valheim.

Is this not action combat?
https://youtu.be/t3LydR8VssY?t=369

Is half of the mage's skills' ability to be set off w/o a target not action combat?
https://youtu.be/OP-YMN2VXlw?t=438

Is you shooting an arrow w/o a target not action combat?

What exactly am I missing here? What would constitute "not a tab enhanced" game to you? Literally a game that is fully action combat? A game that has no tab at all?

Apparently a lot, those arrows are clearly coded with a targeting system. You can see it in the “action” toggle where the reticle isn’t on a mob and he still hits it.

That’d be a miss in action combat.

Ludullu

Solvryn wrote: »

Apparently a lot, those arrows are clearly coded with a targeting system. You can see it in the “action” toggle where the reticle isn’t on a mob and he still hits it.

That’d be a miss in action combat.

Yeah, it's as if it's a HYBRID system that lets you get a tab target during action combat.

As for the "reticle not on the target but can still hit", I already said this before. Their hitboxes definitely require more work and I definitely expect them to work more on them. Released action combat games would obviously have better hitboxes because they are released and finished.

Here's an example from the video. Anywhere closer towards the mob and the reticle "caught" the target. Literally fixable by making better hitboxes.

And as I've also already said before, we haven't seen a freeflying arrow being "caught" be a target that runs into it. I do hope they show that, but I feel like that'll have to be an A2 player tested thing, rather than a showcase one.

But the ability to let out arrows w/o a target already makes this system at least partially "action". And you know what "partially action" means - that's it's a hybrid! Omg who woulda sunken.

Ludullu

Oh, and once again you completely gloss over melee and mage part of what I brought up and only have issues with the archer. And then you're surprised that I think you only care about shooter mechanics

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Armored Core 6 is true Hybrid Combat.

(it is also, now that I have played it, too fast for an MMO, as Dygz pointed out, my original opinion on that was based on previous AC games which were slower).

Everything else is clearly a semantics discussion waiting to happen.

Yep, I love AC6. It's fast as fuck, just as I like my games too. And I definitely agree that it's waaaay too fast for the majority of mmo players.

Is it hybrid though? Or are you making a joke there? Cause I don't think I've tried shooting the weapons w/o a target so I don't know

I am being serious, yes, about that part. I do have opinions on this, but I don't think they apply to Ashes and based on your conversation with Solvryn I could not possibly add anything of worth to any discussion with them.

The thing that makes AC6 hybrid combat is simple enough though.

Your lock on guarantees only that your weapon shot will attempt to hit the spot the target is moving to, at the moment you fire the weapon. Changes in their vector in response to 'seeing the shot' for slow attacks or 'misdirection' for faster ones, will cause you to miss. You can then factor for this in various ways, most of which are easier if you do not use the 'Target Lock' option for the camera.

Same for things like the Elite Dangerous Plasma Accelerator. It shows you a target point where you should point the thing 'if your opponent actually kept going in that direction' but it's often wrong because your opponent is maneuvering, so you use it + your expectation or knowledge of how you expect their trajectory to change while the shot is moving.

So you can 'select your target' and that gives you an idea or indicator 'how to keep your focus on that target'. And then you do the sub-action of leading the shot yourself as necessary. Ashes currently hasn't shown many abilities where this is the case, the projectile 'finds the target for you' if they change direction, which makes sense because Ashes has not shown any conserved velocity and uses Split Body movement without any recovery frames.

The issue is technically that AC6 is too fast for most people to even lead shots despite having velocities on movement, so you probably indeed have no reason to fire your weapons without a lock on. I don't do it often either and I actually use weapons that benefit from it.

I think it's fair to call something 'tab enhanced' if just 'having the target' guarantees the effectiveness of the projectile due to the projectile 'homing in'. This is separate from, say 'Aim Assisted' where the reticle sticks to the enemy and the character fires the projectile at the sticky reticle (AC6 with target lock on), and also different from the aforementioned Elite where the indicator tells you where to put a predictive shot to hit your 'Tab Target' (AC6 with Target Lock off using things like Laser Rifle).

Whatever Steven means by 'Hybrid Combat' though, is what they should use. If 'Hybrid' means 'Tab Enhanced', then let the sandals be thrown with their autocorrecting trajectories.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

Ashes currently hasn't shown many abilities where this is the case, the projectile 'finds the target for you' if they change direction, which makes sense because Ashes has not shown any conserved velocity and uses Split Body movement without any recovery frames.

Right, and I do hope that they either change to this type of system if they're not there currently or that they show it off properly.

I just rewatched (yet again) the action part of the ranger showcase and there's a moment where the reticle is way far from the target, but because Steven tabbed to the next victim the character auto-aimed correctly.

So I do think that at least the arrows don't follow the targets and it's just the tabbed character can just auto-aim precisely. But I guess the only way to test this would be pvp, cause arrow speed is too damn high for mobs to just dodge it.

Solvryn

NiKr wrote: »

Solvryn wrote: »

Apparently a lot, those arrows are clearly coded with a targeting system. You can see it in the “action” toggle where the reticle isn’t on a mob and he still hits it.

That’d be a miss in action combat.

Yeah, it's as if it's a HYBRID system that lets you get a tab target during action combat.

As for the "reticle not on the target but can still hit", I already said this before. Their hitboxes definitely require more work and I definitely expect them to work more on them. Released action combat games would obviously have better hitboxes because they are released and finished.

Here's an example from the video. Anywhere closer towards the mob and the reticle "caught" the target. Literally fixable by making better hitboxes.

And as I've also already said before, we haven't seen a freeflying arrow being "caught" be a target that runs into it. I do hope they show that, but I feel like that'll have to be an A2 player tested thing, rather than a showcase one.

But the ability to let out arrows w/o a target already makes this system at least partially "action". And you know what "partially action" means - that's it's a hybrid! Omg who woulda sunken.

its reticle bloom they’d need to adjust first and that won’t matter if it’s a targeting system, instead of a projectile with a forgiving soft lock (like TERA).

Which is why I told you this conversation would be much easier if you played TERA a little more.

I hope they show more projectile mechanics and collision, but right now I have doubts. Probably more so than others because I don’t want a tab based game.

Ludullu

Solvryn wrote: »

its reticle bloom they’d need to adjust first and that won’t matter if it’s a targeting system, instead of a projectile with a forgiving soft lock (like TERA).

Which is why I told you this conversation would be much easier if you played TERA a little more.

I hope they show more projectile mechanics and collision, but right now I have doubts. Probably more so than others because I don’t want a tab based game.

I kinda addressed this above. I do think it's a projectile system. It's just that the character auto-aims in tab. And until we see controlled pvp that explicitly tries to test this system we won't know how exactly it works.

Solvryn

NiKr wrote: »

Solvryn wrote: »

its reticle bloom they’d need to adjust first and that won’t matter if it’s a targeting system, instead of a projectile with a forgiving soft lock (like TERA).

Which is why I told you this conversation would be much easier if you played TERA a little more.

I hope they show more projectile mechanics and collision, but right now I have doubts. Probably more so than others because I don’t want a tab based game.

I kinda addressed this above. I do think it's a projectile system. It's just that the character auto-aims in tab. And until we see controlled pvp that explicitly tries to test this system we won't know how exactly it works.

Auto-target, because an algorithm guides the projectile.

If it was auto-aim it’d be more similar to an aim assist which helps you screen center.

Ludullu

Solvryn wrote: »

Auto-target, because an algorithm guides the projectile.

If it was auto-aim it’d be more similar to an aim assist which helps you screen center.

No, you can look at the video and see the character aim at the target when shooting. I know it's a wild concept to a shooter pro like you, but in rpgs your character actually does a big chunk of the work

I'm jk, but the point is the same. It's not the projectile that magically turns mid-air, it's the character that turn his body to aim at the target.

And in the context of "you can shoot arrows whenever you want", I'd imagine that arrows count as separate projectiles and can be "caught" by moving targets. But I'm 90% sure we will not see this interaction until A2.

Solvryn

NiKr wrote: »

Solvryn wrote: »

Auto-target, because an algorithm guides the projectile.

If it was auto-aim it’d be more similar to an aim assist which helps you screen center.

No, you can look at the video and see the character aim at the target when shooting. I know it's a wild concept to a shooter pro like you, but in rpgs your character actually does a big chunk of the work

I'm jk, but the point is the same. It's not the projectile that magically turns mid-air, it's the character that turn his body to aim at the target.

And in the context of "you can shoot arrows whenever you want", I'd imagine that arrows count as separate projectiles and can be "caught" by moving targets. But I'm 90% sure we will not see this interaction until A2.

RPGs are still RPGs with 100% player workload. That’s not relevant to a combat system. Most MMORPGs enthusiasts like myself understand this.

Tab targeting causing toons to turn on the z axis is not at all surprising, it’s normal.

I too watched it again, can confirm even with the reticle it’s a targeted system.

Ludullu

Solvryn wrote: »

Tab targeting causing toons to turn on the z axis is not at all surprising, it’s normal.

So you agree that it's a projectile-based system? Nice

Solvryn wrote: »

I too watched it again, can confirm even with the reticle it’s a targeted system.

Could you point out the moment that leads you to believe this?

Solvryn

NiKr wrote: »

Solvryn wrote: »

Tab targeting causing toons to turn on the z axis is not at all surprising, it’s normal.

So you agree that it's a projectile-based system? Nice

Solvryn wrote: »

I too watched it again, can confirm even with the reticle it’s a targeted system.

Could you point out the moment that leads you to believe this?

The Ranger has had projectile based abilities, this wasn’t an argument.

But a projectile guided by an algorithm is a targeting system.

Aim aided by an algorithm is an aiming system.

Facing your target in a targeting system is standard.

Reduced bloom and soft lock will be the closest we ever get to a balanced hybrid.

Ludullu

Solvryn wrote: »

But a projectile guided by an algorithm is a targeting system.

Could you point to the moment in the showcase where this happened. I guess I missed it? Or are you just extrapolating your own assumptions about what kind of system they're using?

Solvryn wrote: »

Reduced bloom and soft lock will be the closest we ever get to a balanced hybrid.

Ok, reduced bloom. To me this is the same as proper hitboxes, but I get your stickler point. On this we agree, I expect/want weaker bloom as well.

Dizz1

Solvryn wrote: »

Dizz wrote: »

I prefer what I saw in AoC ranger update video than other games like Conq Blade, Darkfall. I feel Intrepid did a great job on ranger and tab/action mode in that ranger update.

Personally don't like I need aiming like FPS/TPS in a mmorpg. If I want that kind of skill celling and gameplay I will just play that knid of games such as Apex or Splatoon instead of playing mmorpgs.

Tab as a combat system has nothing to offer anymore when you're a mastery chaser.

I don’t like aiming without target system simply because I think action combat is not that complete like tab combat to put in mmorpgs, and it simply way harder to make good gameplay and agency for ranged archetypes. And according to wiki that action combat is far less dependent on RNG. If Intrepid still think it's a good idea. I don’t even know how to balance the risk vs reward between tab mode and action mode to make the combat feels good for both side of players in small scale fights and large scale fights.

Still the hybrid combat Intrepid presented no matter what it should be called, I like it. The targeting system in action mode seems solved situations like when healer need to cast single target healing ability on someone was covered in a large group of people. It also looks like AC6's target system(I don’t know what you call it, I simply call it target system), different in detail but what Intrepid presented is good enough for me.

To me now so called action combat lack too much to replicate the fun part about what human body able to do in reality into a virtual game, and doesn’t always feel having control to my character like my body in reality. Especially when playing a mmorpg like AoC as a ranger.

For example I able to run forwards and shoot arrows backwards at the same time. It’s easy to replicate and balance in tab combat and feel good. In my experience it’s not easy to replicate in action combat but still doable however the experience the feeling and respond is not good as tab combat. Because in reality the bow hand does the aiming about 80~90% then eyes, and action combat doesn’t offer the agency for me to able to control my character like how I control and use my body.

A further example in reality I can shoot turning arrows to hit target behind object. It’s easy to replicate in tab combat and using RNG to easily to represent the shot hit or miss. I don’t think it’s easy or even I doubt it’s able to replicate this in action combat that need aiming.

Solvryn

NiKr wrote: »

Solvryn wrote: »

But a projectile guided by an algorithm is a targeting system.

Could you point to the moment in the showcase where this happened. I guess I missed it? Or are you just extrapolating your own assumptions about what kind of system they're using?

Solvryn wrote: »

Reduced bloom and soft lock will be the closest we ever get to a balanced hybrid.

Ok, reduced bloom. To me this is the same as proper hitboxes, but I get your stickler point. On this we agree, I expect/want weaker bloom as well.

Two things I can see it is tab. They also said it’s tab.

Back to sleep.

Ludullu

Solvryn wrote: »

Two things I can see it is tab. They also said it’s tab.

Back to sleep.

Yes, it's a hybrid system, so obviously it'll have a tab component as well. But they literally shoot arrows w/o a target. Is that not the action part of the HYBRID system?

If you want just an action system and not a hybrid system - just say so. But you keep saying that you dislike their hybrid system, yet you can't explain how/why/what you dislike and how it could be made better. That is bad feedback.

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