Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » If they have already stated game is not going to allow third party add ons, them talking about difficulty is not going to be based on that. You still seem to not be getting it. It seems perhaps you are unaware that developers actually never know what kind of power level top end players are going to have. They make the game, but players very quickly come to understand it better than the developers do. We take advantage of things developers never considered, combine effects and classes in ways developers didn't foresee. Literally the only way developers have of seeing how hard a new piece of content will be is to put it on live and see how hard players in top end guilds find it. Based on the above, would you please explain to me, good sir, how Intrepid are going to fine tune content to be a serious challenge to players, but without taking combat trackers in to account, when they have no means of telling who is and who is not using combat trackers? It is worth pointing out that the tracker I have right now connects to a server, so I can get everyone in my guild/raid to join the same server. Rather than parse each individual player locally, all clients connected to the server are collated in to a single log file which is then simply run through ACT. I'm going to keep this short, if devs are saying content can only be complete by 10% of people and they balance difficulty overtime this point doesn't mean anything. You are talking about a faction of a faction that is going to be far below 10% the more hoops needed to be jumped through int order to cheat and advert the rules of the system. Both of less people will do it, and it will be easier to take action against certain people if people within notify what is going on. A tiny faction isn't going to be the main amount of people at the end of the day so that won't change balance of what the devs are doing.
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » If they have already stated game is not going to allow third party add ons, them talking about difficulty is not going to be based on that. You still seem to not be getting it. It seems perhaps you are unaware that developers actually never know what kind of power level top end players are going to have. They make the game, but players very quickly come to understand it better than the developers do. We take advantage of things developers never considered, combine effects and classes in ways developers didn't foresee. Literally the only way developers have of seeing how hard a new piece of content will be is to put it on live and see how hard players in top end guilds find it. Based on the above, would you please explain to me, good sir, how Intrepid are going to fine tune content to be a serious challenge to players, but without taking combat trackers in to account, when they have no means of telling who is and who is not using combat trackers? It is worth pointing out that the tracker I have right now connects to a server, so I can get everyone in my guild/raid to join the same server. Rather than parse each individual player locally, all clients connected to the server are collated in to a single log file which is then simply run through ACT.
Mag7spy wrote: » If they have already stated game is not going to allow third party add ons, them talking about difficulty is not going to be based on that.
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » If they have already stated game is not going to allow third party add ons, them talking about difficulty is not going to be based on that. You still seem to not be getting it. It seems perhaps you are unaware that developers actually never know what kind of power level top end players are going to have. They make the game, but players very quickly come to understand it better than the developers do. We take advantage of things developers never considered, combine effects and classes in ways developers didn't foresee. Literally the only way developers have of seeing how hard a new piece of content will be is to put it on live and see how hard players in top end guilds find it. Based on the above, would you please explain to me, good sir, how Intrepid are going to fine tune content to be a serious challenge to players, but without taking combat trackers in to account, when they have no means of telling who is and who is not using combat trackers? It is worth pointing out that the tracker I have right now connects to a server, so I can get everyone in my guild/raid to join the same server. Rather than parse each individual player locally, all clients connected to the server are collated in to a single log file which is then simply run through ACT. I'm going to keep this short, if devs are saying content can only be complete by 10% of people and they balance difficulty overtime this point doesn't mean anything. You are talking about a faction of a faction that is going to be far below 10% the more hoops needed to be jumped through int order to cheat and advert the rules of the system. Both of less people will do it, and it will be easier to take action against certain people if people within notify what is going on. A tiny faction isn't going to be the main amount of people at the end of the day so that won't change balance of what the devs are doing. More than 10% of players will have access to combat trackers. If the content in the game is made any more involved than the content in Archeage (basically big dragon shaped punching bags), any guild wanting to take on top end content will be using one. Adding one off hoops for players to jump through isn't a barrier, especially when the end result technically isn't against the rules at all. Edit to add; for actual real world proof of this, look no further than the news. Last week, Italy banned ChatGPT nationwide. A complete ban. An actual law, with an actual punishment for breaking it. The obvious result of this - that literally everyone predicted - was that there was the biggest surge in VPN sign ups in the history of Italy.
Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » If they have already stated game is not going to allow third party add ons, them talking about difficulty is not going to be based on that. You still seem to not be getting it. It seems perhaps you are unaware that developers actually never know what kind of power level top end players are going to have. They make the game, but players very quickly come to understand it better than the developers do. We take advantage of things developers never considered, combine effects and classes in ways developers didn't foresee. Literally the only way developers have of seeing how hard a new piece of content will be is to put it on live and see how hard players in top end guilds find it. Based on the above, would you please explain to me, good sir, how Intrepid are going to fine tune content to be a serious challenge to players, but without taking combat trackers in to account, when they have no means of telling who is and who is not using combat trackers? It is worth pointing out that the tracker I have right now connects to a server, so I can get everyone in my guild/raid to join the same server. Rather than parse each individual player locally, all clients connected to the server are collated in to a single log file which is then simply run through ACT. I'm going to keep this short, if devs are saying content can only be complete by 10% of people and they balance difficulty overtime this point doesn't mean anything. You are talking about a faction of a faction that is going to be far below 10% the more hoops needed to be jumped through int order to cheat and advert the rules of the system. Both of less people will do it, and it will be easier to take action against certain people if people within notify what is going on. A tiny faction isn't going to be the main amount of people at the end of the day so that won't change balance of what the devs are doing. More than 10% of players will have access to combat trackers. If the content in the game is made any more involved than the content in Archeage (basically big dragon shaped punching bags), any guild wanting to take on top end content will be using one. Adding one off hoops for players to jump through isn't a barrier, especially when the end result technically isn't against the rules at all. Edit to add; for actual real world proof of this, look no further than the news. Last week, Italy banned ChatGPT nationwide. A complete ban. An actual law, with an actual punishment for breaking it. The obvious result of this - that literally everyone predicted - was that there was the biggest surge in VPN sign ups in the history of Italy. You need to look at things from other perspectives you mainly only see it from your own. The more difficult something is to use the less people will be using it more caring about it. What I'm taking about is you are saying factions of people that will attempt to cheat and get around the rules since it wont be as simple as just using a tracker since you cant normally view allies stats. The less emphasis on it the less people will care to use trackers since they will feel it isn't needed. Comment has already said they are not allowing it so it would be against the rules. Those 10% of players that would still try to use it would be spread out randomly among the player base, you can't count that percent as all end game when players will not feel it is a requirement to need it and/or want to follow the rules set.
Iskiab wrote: » This isn’t the use of a combat tracker.
A combat tracker parses the log file to tell you what’s happening in the encounter. You could tell if a boss is a swinger (lots of small hits) or does a large special for high damage of a certain element type (like poison so you needed specific resists).
Dygz wrote: » Iskiab wrote: » This isn’t the use of a combat tracker. For many people it is. A combat tracker parses the log file to tell you what’s happening in the encounter. You could tell if a boss is a swinger (lots of small hits) or does a large special for high damage of a certain element type (like poison so you needed specific resists). I have never experienced trackers being used like that. I commonly experience the leader looking over the log and saying (typically to friends of mine), "Why are your numbers so low?!? I'm kicking you." Which is why people say they are toxic and they are banned in Ashes and FF XIV.
Dygz wrote: » Iskiab wrote: » A combat tracker parses the log file to tell you what’s happening in the encounter. You could tell if a boss is a swinger (lots of small hits) or does a large special for high damage of a certain element type (like poison so you needed specific resists). I have never experienced trackers being used like that.
Iskiab wrote: » A combat tracker parses the log file to tell you what’s happening in the encounter. You could tell if a boss is a swinger (lots of small hits) or does a large special for high damage of a certain element type (like poison so you needed specific resists).
Mag7spy wrote: » So simply information as I have been saying in a easier way to get it. But it is not the only excusive way to get that information. Meaning you can gain the information through other ways. If you can get that information through other ways and the only thing you gain is information easier, it means the gameplay doesn't change be it the content being easier or more difficult. So with or without the tools gameplay can remain at the same difficulty if desired.
Sjelden wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » So simply information as I have been saying in a easier way to get it. But it is not the only excusive way to get that information. Meaning you can gain the information through other ways. If you can get that information through other ways and the only thing you gain is information easier, it means the gameplay doesn't change be it the content being easier or more difficult. So with or without the tools gameplay can remain at the same difficulty if desired. What are you trying to achieve?
Mag7spy wrote: » Sjelden wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » So simply information as I have been saying in a easier way to get it. But it is not the only excusive way to get that information. Meaning you can gain the information through other ways. If you can get that information through other ways and the only thing you gain is information easier, it means the gameplay doesn't change be it the content being easier or more difficult. So with or without the tools gameplay can remain at the same difficulty if desired. What are you trying to achieve? Like most people, a dislike for third party add-ons, dps meters, etc.
Noaani wrote: » Objective data suggests most people that understand the difference between objective and subjective prefer objective data.
MrPockets wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Objective data suggests most people that understand the difference between objective and subjective prefer objective data. This is a bit meta...but I'm feeling sassy, so here we go. Is this thread (+ the devs decision to not allow 3rd party add-ons) not objective data? Regardless of WHY people like/dislike the idea of dps meters/trackers....the fact is...the majority of players (+ devs) have spoken; and don't want these to be officially supported and/or heavily influence game design. So I guess if you are a fan of objective data, you can admit this is the design philosophy that the game will take until further notice. This take may be wrong, and MMOs do in fact require trackers to be "good" as you claim. But can't we go into alpha 2 with the current design philosophy and reassess during testing? As much as I've enjoyed reading the heated debates in this thread...it has been going in circles for so long...can't we just let it die until alpha 2?
Azherae wrote: » Noaani has claimed at some point that some past or present Intrepid Dev is in fact partially responsible for the tracker the game already has. Perhaps the majority of devs don't want one, but we really have no way to know that, as there's no indication there was an 'internal poll' of any kind that 'led to this outcome'. The Devs are the people whose input we know the least.
Ongfrnocap wrote: » Ok this will be extremely controversial but the questions need to be asked If someone dies to a gun shot, did the gun kill the person or did the shooter kill the person? Same quesion but now it's a knife Same quesion but now it's throwing a rock to the head ... Same quesion but now for dps meters
Ongfrnocap wrote: » Ok this will be extremely controversial but the questions need to be asked so we can get to the root of the problem Regarding human behaviour: If someone dies to a gun shot, did the gun kill the person or did the shooter kill the person? Same quesion but now it's a knife Same quesion but now it's a butter knife from England Same quesion but now it's throwing a rock to the head ... Same quesion but now for dps meters in a game and someone is being toxic
