DPS Meter Megathread

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Dygz

NiKr wrote: »

And for the non-tracker players there'd pretty much be no other choice other than to start using trackers as well, at which point it's no longer "live and let live", it's just a "my way or the highway" approach.

Especially when contesting a boss with PvPers using combat trackers.

Azherae

Dygz wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

And for the non-tracker players there'd pretty much be no other choice other than to start using trackers as well, at which point it's no longer "live and let live", it's just a "my way or the highway" approach.

Especially when contesting a boss with PvPers using combat trackers.

I think it is reasonable to assume that the FFXIV outcome would happen.

The sort of person who doesn't want the equivalent of a Tracker is often content believing that others aren't using them.

Like people who don't believe in knowing frame data.

Dygz

I mean... in FFXIV, you will get banned if you announce that you're using a combat tracker.
If you won't get banned for using a combat tracker, so many people will straight up tell you they use a combat tracker that you expect the vast majority of non-casual players to be using combat trackers.

Azherae

Dygz wrote: »

I mean... in FFXIV, you will get banned if you announce that you're using a combat tracker.
If you won't get banned for using a combat tracker, so many people will straight up tell you they use a combat tracker that you expect the vast majority of non-casual players to be using combat trackers.

I'm sure Intrepid will make sure you get banned for any blatant violations of their ironclad ToS, yes.

Ruerik

Dygz wrote: »

I mean... in FFXIV, you will get banned if you announce that you're using a combat tracker.
If you won't get banned for using a combat tracker, so many people will straight up tell you they use a combat tracker that you expect the vast majority of non-casual players to be using combat trackers.

This is the best way to handle it in my opinion.
The raiders that want it get to know what damage is, and no one has to know or be bothered by it. Everyone wins.

Noaani

Erahh wrote: »

I think Steve is right in what he said, DPS meters create toxics group and meta builds.
Play the game, learn it yourself, find what works for you.

Raid and dungeon groups are not are friendly thing in the MMORPG world, if you underperform for any reason you're out, it doesn't give people the chance to improve and makes them steer away from such content.

I'm sure some people are saying they wouldn't have this toxic mindset but its a straight lie.

WOW is a clear indicator on why they're bad.

They do have their upsides but the downsides greatly outweigh them.

The problem with WoW isn't combat trackers. If trackers were the issue, then Archeage would be the least toxic game out there, and EQ2 would be the most toxic - but in reality EQ2 is the least toxic community I have ever played in, and Archeage is the most.

The problem with WoW is the LFG/LFR system. If you create a major system in your game that treats players as disposable, you shouldn't be surprised if players start treating each other as disposable.

If you are running a group or raid and a combat tracker is giving you information that suggests someone in the raid isn't performing their role as expected, that isn't toxic in and of itself (that is the only thing a combat tracker can do in this regard).

It is what happens from this point on that could be considered toxic though. If the raid leader decides to boot you from the raid for poor performance, and argument could be made that this is toxic. However, a raid leader is only going to boot you from the raid that is already in progress if they are confident they can quickly replace you. If there is no methord to easily replace you, then the raid leaders best option is to try and help you improve.

So, the game system that is causing toxicity in this situation is not the combat tracker, it is the LFG/LFR system - or the family summons in the case of Ashes.

Noaani

Depraved wrote: »

maybe other people used them? for sure. but i didnt. according to you, you cant carry a bad player in a top pve encounter. so i either got carried or i just didnt need the tracker

The people that created the meta build you used made heavy use of combat trackers, and the people running your raid used them.

I've said a few times in this thread that a singular person that is just a somewhat capable muppet filling a spot in a raid does't need to use one. It is only the people actually working shit out that need them - be that builds or encounters.

Noaani

George_Black wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

George_Black wrote: »

I still dont see the need. Played eso for 5 years and never once used such an addon. Cleared all veteran hard mode trials as dps, no problem.

You may note that when I talk about games with top end PvE, ESO is never in the conversation.

ESO content is that basic arithmetic. You don't need a calculator for it.

Those mmos are in your head. If you ever get 40mil to start with, go make them. And least when I talk about stuff I base them on reality.

I base them on reality as well. I just know that people like you have significantly different experiences to someone like me - and I also happen to know that people like you assume that what ever game they happen to be playing is the hardest, because you would not want to be seen playing what is inherently an easy game.

Noaani

Taerrik wrote: »

Either the boss is extremely over tuned, and probably not meant to be cleared except by less than 1% of the playerbase anyway.

Replying to a few of your posts with the one quote here.

To the above, I agree. It is unusual that a mob would take 6 months or more to kill - but it does indeed happen. I have seen a boss that was killed by 0.0002% of the player base before the next content cycle with a level cap increase came out. I have no expectation of any encounter even remotely close to that being even considered for Ashes.

Your comment on what Ashes bosses will be is fairly accurate. For the most part they will mechanically simple encounters, because the "challenge" for them is supposed to come from PvP, not from the encounters. You can't really have an encounter like Yogg-Saron while there are other players fighting you as well. Then there is the fact that most Ashes raids (perhaps all - Intrepid haven't said anything on this as yet) will not be restricted in terms of player numbers - you could well have 40 people trying to kill the encounter, or you could have 400.

The basics of the games design prevent actually worthwhile boss encounters (as in, the encounter itself is worthwhile) from existing.

As to your discussion on how Intrepid should look at trackers - the tracker I have right now is able to parse combat from the games livestreams, and work is being done on getting it to run on Android. Even if Intrepid installed something to hunt out a combat tracker, they can only install that on the computer that has their client. If my tracker isn't on that computer, they can't do a whole lot.

Your comments on DBM being a different thing is very true. Throughout this thread I have talked about combat trackers (which many people erroniously call DPS meters - that is one function of a combat tracker) and combat assistants.

George_Black

Noaani wrote: »

George_Black wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

George_Black wrote: »

I still dont see the need. Played eso for 5 years and never once used such an addon. Cleared all veteran hard mode trials as dps, no problem.

You may note that when I talk about games with top end PvE, ESO is never in the conversation.

ESO content is that basic arithmetic. You don't need a calculator for it.

Those mmos are in your head. If you ever get 40mil to start with, go make them. And least when I talk about stuff I base them on reality.

I base them on reality as well. I just know that people like you have significantly different experiences to someone like me - and I also happen to know that people like you assume that what ever game they happen to be playing is the hardest, because you would not want to be seen playing what is inherently an easy game.

Blah blah blah.
Show a video or shut up.

Songcaller

I think dps meter is more accurate. Dbm is a combat tracker. A dps meter simply monitors dps, hps and threat generation either via stacks or via specific skills.

Noaani

Neurath wrote: »

I think dps meter is more accurate. Dbm is a combat tracker. A dps meter simply monitors dps, hps and threat generation either via stacks or via specific skills.

DBM doesn't just track combat though, a combat tracker is doing nothing but tracking (or monitoring).

Noaani

George_Black wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

George_Black wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

George_Black wrote: »

I still dont see the need. Played eso for 5 years and never once used such an addon. Cleared all veteran hard mode trials as dps, no problem.

You may note that when I talk about games with top end PvE, ESO is never in the conversation.

ESO content is that basic arithmetic. You don't need a calculator for it.

Those mmos are in your head. If you ever get 40mil to start with, go make them. And least when I talk about stuff I base them on reality.

I base them on reality as well. I just know that people like you have significantly different experiences to someone like me - and I also happen to know that people like you assume that what ever game they happen to be playing is the hardest, because you would not want to be seen playing what is inherently an easy game.

Blah blah blah.
Show a video or shut up.

Have you literally ever seen anyone talking about difficult MMO's in general who mentions ESO without being laughed at?

Songcaller

Anything that tells you to dodge or avoid mechanics is a tracker. Anything that monitors performance is a meter. You don't have a tracker installed to gas and electric, you have a meter.

George_Black

Noaani wrote: »

George_Black wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

George_Black wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

George_Black wrote: »

I still dont see the need. Played eso for 5 years and never once used such an addon. Cleared all veteran hard mode trials as dps, no problem.

You may note that when I talk about games with top end PvE, ESO is never in the conversation.

ESO content is that basic arithmetic. You don't need a calculator for it.

Those mmos are in your head. If you ever get 40mil to start with, go make them. And least when I talk about stuff I base them on reality.

I base them on reality as well. I just know that people like you have significantly different experiences to someone like me - and I also happen to know that people like you assume that what ever game they happen to be playing is the hardest, because you would not want to be seen playing what is inherently an easy game.

Blah blah blah.
Show a video or shut up.

Have you literally ever seen anyone talking about difficult MMO's in general who mentions ESO without being laughed at?

Your mmos exist only in your head. Show a difficult, wholesome PvE encounter or shut up.

Noaani

Neurath wrote: »

Anything that tells you to dodge or avoid mechanics is a tracker. Anything that monitors performance is a meter. You don't have a tracker installed to gas and electric, you have a meter.

While I won't say they don't exist, I have yet to see a finished version of a combat tracker that measures player output but doesn't also have the ability to monitor for enemy ability trigger alerts.

This is why I would suggest that a DPS meter is a function of a combat tracker.

Noaani

George_Black wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

George_Black wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

George_Black wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

George_Black wrote: »

I still dont see the need. Played eso for 5 years and never once used such an addon. Cleared all veteran hard mode trials as dps, no problem.

You may note that when I talk about games with top end PvE, ESO is never in the conversation.

ESO content is that basic arithmetic. You don't need a calculator for it.

Those mmos are in your head. If you ever get 40mil to start with, go make them. And least when I talk about stuff I base them on reality.

I base them on reality as well. I just know that people like you have significantly different experiences to someone like me - and I also happen to know that people like you assume that what ever game they happen to be playing is the hardest, because you would not want to be seen playing what is inherently an easy game.

Blah blah blah.
Show a video or shut up.

Have you literally ever seen anyone talking about difficult MMO's in general who mentions ESO without being laughed at?

Your mmos exist only in your head. Show a difficult, wholesome PvE encounter or shut up.

3 replies to this.

1, as is my reply to anyone that demands anything from me - no.

2, I've already mentioned such encounters by name. Videos of them don't exist because people in games that are actually competitive don't record them. Even if they did exist, if you aren't familiar with the mechanics via actually playing the encounters in question, a video of a compex encounter isn't going to be able to show you anything of value.

3, wha the fuck does "wholesome" have to do with anything?

Ludullu

Taerrik wrote: »

I'm going to be real honest with you, and I dont meant to say this in a toxic or negative way, its just how it is.

It's about distillation of content in the long term. Noaani said he knows a boss that was killed by a fraction of a fraction of the playerbase in the, allegedly, most competitive pve mmo out there. Which means that any normal player wouldn't even come close to the bosses that were half as difficult. And this would just keep happening because the ones who do clear that content would want more content like that, because that's the only fun thing for them (or at least that's what I've gathered from Noaani's comments).

My numbers were there just for an extreme example, but the point still stands. PvE difficulty will get out of hand much quicker if Intrepid decides to completely accept the existence of meters/trackers. Obviously that existence is inevitable, but it's more about how Intrepid approach that inevitability rather than the sheer argument of what they should do about allowing or prohibiting meters.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Taerrik wrote: »

I'm going to be real honest with you, and I dont meant to say this in a toxic or negative way, its just how it is.

It's about distillation of content in the long term. Noaani said he knows a boss that was killed by a fraction of a fraction of the playerbase in the, allegedly, most competitive pve mmo out there. Which means that any normal player wouldn't even come close to the bosses that were half as difficult. And this would just keep happening because the ones who do clear that content would want more content like that, because that's the only fun thing for them (or at least that's what I've gathered from Noaani's comments).

My numbers were there just for an extreme example, but the point still stands. PvE difficulty will get out of hand much quicker if Intrepid decides to completely accept the existence of meters/trackers. Obviously that existence is inevitable, but it's more about how Intrepid approach that inevitability rather than the sheer argument of what they should do about allowing or prohibiting meters.

Also they nerfed Baltheus so there's that.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

Also they nerfed Baltheus so there's that.

Wait, seriously? Fuck, I need to go finish that game before they make more changes. I'm glad I beat him in ~20 tries before the nerf, but if they're about to nerf even more shit I better go be a proper gamer, otherwise my card will be revoked. God damn it.

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