Baseline boss difficulty vs reward

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Thus, the demand for the item is 3125. If 3125 of them existed on the server, 3125 of them would be used.

This is not quite right, especially if repairs will require deconstruction of the same item for its mats. But even if it doesn't, there's still the OE part of the equation and people at the top always want to go higher, and with item decay (and potentially destruction) you'd need more than one item per person.

And the very top guilds would greed that shit up, so they'd go after the item even if every appropriate class in their guild already has it, so the demand would remain higher than the base supply requirement.

This si why we need to know the enchant system it changes everything with so many unknowns. This argument on value of items are working with incorrect information since we know so little.

Also noaani's perspective is about pve and instanced gameplay he won't understand more complicated matters, that is why his arguments seem flawed. But he isn't open to other opinions just his own.

Mag7spy wrote: »

Also noaani's perspective is about pve and instanced gameplay he won't understand more complicated matters, that is why his arguments seem flawed. But he isn't open to other opinions just his own.

He's played AA so he understands contests for ow bosses. It's just classic Noaani semantic arguments. It's just morph's first time, so they're not as used to that.

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Also noaani's perspective is about pve and instanced gameplay he won't understand more complicated matters, that is why his arguments seem flawed. But he isn't open to other opinions just his own.

He's played AA so he understands contests for ow bosses. It's just classic Noaani semantic arguments. It's just morph's first time, so they're not as used to that.

I still feel its debatable how much he played it. He also only references older games and generally just eq when he is comparing anything or saying the right direction something should go. IVE heavy pve focused type stuff.

Mag7spy wrote: »

He also only references older games and generally just eq when he is comparing anything or saying the right direction something should go.

If this disqualified arguments, my whole existence on this forum woulda been pointless

Also, AA is one of the inspirations and Noaani is one of the few here who've played it.

It is crazy how different is some ones perspective if they did not play L2.
PvP does not change the value!? PvP Is literally the only price to be paid in some cases.

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

He also only references older games and generally just eq when he is comparing anything or saying the right direction something should go.

If this disqualified arguments, my whole existence on this forum woulda been pointless Also, AA is one of the inspirations and Noaani is one of the few here who've played it.

It depends, are you trying to make a pvx game or are you trying to make a instanced or focused pve game. His takes seem more focused on pve than pvp.

Which is half the issue, the other issue is having a strong take focused on pve, but also not considering other games pve or not, and understanding other view points and opinions. And just having a combative thinking everything else is wrong but what you think and not open to other possibilities

So no it wouldn't be pointless both issues you aren't really tied to in wanting a pve focus experience and you understand better pvp and how that effects things.

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Thus, the demand for the item is 3125. If 3125 of them existed on the server, 3125 of them would be used.

This is not quite right, especially if repairs will require deconstruction of the same item for its mats.

Yeah, the demand is actually higher than this, but I was trying to give a base level explanation I don't expect people to need to deconstruct top tier items in order to maintain other top tier items (I expdct there to be other means by which you can get the materials), but there will be an amount of destruction.

But at a base level, this is how demand is calculated.

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

The top 5 best items I ever saw in Archeage were all put up for sale.

In my experience such items were only sold when the owner was leaving the game and wanted to rmt on his way out or when the guild with those items was so damn powerful that they controlled the entire supply constantly and everyone who needed that item in the guild already had it OEd as much as possible.

Was this the case for those AA items or was AA even weirder than how weird I already think it is?

One of the factions that contested the Red Dragon that I've talked about used to sell the drops if they got them and divide the money between those present.

Some of the sales I saw in Archeage absolutely were RMT based, but the fact remains that these items will end up on the market (be that in game or ebay).

Fun fact, I was invited a few moths ago to give a lecture on the real world implications of supply and demand.

morphwastaken wrote: »

Because your definition of demand and reward is based on how many players want an item, instead of what they are willing to pay. It's not want = get. It's pay = get.

Yeah, but supply and demand doesn't only take in to account those that turn up to try and fight to get the item. Someone willing to buy the item for a significant amount (by definition, that amount can not be defined further than "significant amount", and also by definition must vary based on supply) counts as much towards the supply and demand factor of the item as someone that shows up to try and get the item.

Risk vs reward only take those that show up in to account.

This is why supply vs demand has no real place in this discussion. It encompasses a much larger proportion of the population than just those present at the fight.

Noaani wrote: »

One of the factions that contested the Red Dragon that I've talked about used to sell the drops if they got them and divide the money between those present.

To me this just says that the item itself doesn't have enough value, when compared to other items.

I don't really know which design I would prefer for Ashes though, so that's a discussion for a different time.

KingDDD

I'd like to see multiple ways to get the same reward dependent on what activity you like to do and use the crafting system to tie the reward structure to all facets of the game.

A boss could drop a high tier ore, you could find it in the world, it could be a quest reward, etc.

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

One of the factions that contested the Red Dragon that I've talked about used to sell the drops if they got them and divide the money between those present.

To me this just says that the item itself doesn't have enough value, when compared to other items.

I don't really know which design I would prefer for Ashes though, so that's a discussion for a different time.

That on top of weird guild politics so certain people can get more gold than others and get more gains with some manipulation.

Mag7spy wrote: »

That on top of weird guild politics so certain people can get more gold than others and get more gains with some manipulation.

Eh, that's the normal part. L2 had this stuff as well, but for non-BiS items. It's just weird to me that true BiS legendary stuff would be sold for money to be split. We usually just alternated them between the involved guilds and the order would depend on the amount of support each of the side provided. And yeah, there'd be a ton of guild dramas and manipulations, but that's the fun stuff.

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

One of the factions that contested the Red Dragon that I've talked about used to sell the drops if they got them and divide the money between those present.

To me this just says that the item itself doesn't have enough value, when compared to other items.

I don't really know which design I would prefer for Ashes though, so that's a discussion for a different time.

While I can see how you would come to that conclusion, the reality is that the faction in question was a bunch of guilds that didn't have enough trust in each other to show up each week. This meant they couldn't do a reward share system where one guild got the item one week, and a different guild got it the next time they won the encounter.

With this method, everyone present got a fair portion of the rewards, in the form of gold.

They did offer the item to anyone present for the fight first, if anyone had the resources to buy it. My understanding is that this offer was taken up a number of times (wasn't my faction, so going on second hand knowledge - though I did purchase an item off them for a guild member at one point).

Noaani wrote: »

morphwastaken wrote: »

Because your definition of demand and reward is based on how many players want an item, instead of what they are willing to pay. It's not want = get. It's pay = get.

Yeah, but supply and demand doesn't only take in to account those that turn up to try and fight to get the item. Someone willing to buy the item for a significant amount (by definition, that amount can not be defined further than "significant amount", and also by definition must vary based on supply) counts as much towards the supply and demand factor of the item as someone that shows up to try and get the item.

Risk vs reward only take those that show up in to account.

This is why supply vs demand has no real place in this discussion. It encompasses a much larger proportion of the population than just those present at the fight.

I'll try to roughly describe L2 market, how i see it, as we move towards low supply items.
Supply and demand decide the price.
When price is high enough - PvP will start to happen around PvE content that is supplying the item.
As prices continue to grow - PvP starts to take control over access to PvE content, and will begin to influence the price.
At some point, when supply gets low enough, players by means of PVP will be able to take enough control over PvE encounter supplying the item, to have PvP(controlling supply) and demand decide the price. Market starts to shrink, since those in control are likely also part of demand.
Final step: PvP has full control over PvE encounter, supply is low enough to effectively never satisfy demand of those in control, with that - there is no longer a market. Now the only way for demand to meet the supply - is to become it. The only price you can pay - is PvP. (unless RMT, hacked account, etc.)

Hope this helps to understand my perspective.

morphwastaken wrote: »

When price is high enough - PvP will start to happen around PvE content that is supplying the item.

I'm not saying this wasn't the case in L2, but I will say it won't be the case in Ashes.

Top guilds aren't going to wait until an item has a high sale value before they go after the encounters in question. Everyone capable of taking the encounter on with a reasonable chance of success will be present. The sale price of the item increasing isn't going to mean more people are suddenly in a position to contest the encounter. The only increase to how many people show up to fight an encounter will be when there is an increase in the number of people that think they have a shot at it.

This is why supply and demand and risk vs reward are different things.

Noaani wrote: »

morphwastaken wrote: »

When price is high enough - PvP will start to happen around PvE content that is supplying the item.

I'm not saying this wasn't the case in L2, but I will say it won't be the case in Ashes.

Top guilds aren't going to wait until an item has a high sale value before they go after the encounters in question. Everyone capable of taking the encounter on with a reasonable chance of success will be present. The sale price of the item increasing isn't going to mean more people are suddenly in a position to contest the encounter. The only increase to how many people show up to fight an encounter will be when there is an increase in the number of people that think they have a shot at it.

This is why supply and demand and risk vs reward are different things.

Again not only is this a pve take, but also a bad take saying "this is how it will be" when we don't even know everything about the game, how things work, gearing, etc....

Any item that is valuable for players will have a higher price tag and/or be a item people won't part with because of the advantage it gives and knowing the low chance of gaining something like that again.

The only reason the price would not increase is if more people were trying to obtain it and the drop rate was higher which would have more abundance for people to obtain. If the amount of items can't meet the demand people will pay higher for it, and more people will fight to try to get the item if it has good value.

With more people fighting over things, and of course materials being droppable the risk is increased in terms of player opposition, to both prevent you from obtaining but also take what you have.

Though the value would have to be equal to the risk of corruption, but who is to say with guild wars that won't cause certain mats to be droppable and such.

Brings me back to my original point and a issue with pretty much 80% of your takes saying this is how things will be. You do not know how the game will be, you are looking at a incomplete picture like a finished product.

Noaani wrote: »

Top guilds aren't going to wait until an item has a high sale value before they go after the encounters in question. Everyone capable of taking the encounter on with a reasonable chance of success will be present. The sale price of the item increasing isn't going to mean more people are suddenly in a position to contest the encounter.

You are thinking too narrow. Are you imagining one random boss, or some small area? Top guilds? It starts with just regular players taking hold of supply for themself. Guilds not only can't take full control at fist because supply is just too big with too many sources, but it might simply be not worth the opportunity cost.
Only factor that would decide if someone would try to PvP for something - is if they can? What about risk involved? Profit? What about opportunity cost?
In my L2 market example - it's not one or another thing that is happening. And it's not just PvE, PvP and market, stripped of all other systems and other human interactions, like it is in an example. It is a scale from 0 to 100% that is going through the entire game, interacting with all other systems in a different way, creating different situations, that different players solve in different ways, all at once, fluidly.
If someone is doing something - it's because they find the risk to be worth the reward. Taking too much risk is not worth it - you could do something else with better ratio of risk to reward. So when you are saying - "sometimes risk is not equal to reward" - it's for you to decide, not the game, not other players - you! It's like you are saying: "if i made poor decision, and put a lot of effort in it - i should still get great reward". A lot of movement in the wrong direction does not get you where you want to be. If you want to bring 100 players to a boss designed for 10 - you absolutely can, but you are paying a massive opportunity cost. You could have sent 10 to the boss and have 90 controlling 9 different farming spots instead. This is why travel time is important - it helps to control opportunity cost. All game systems are connected, not instanced

delete

morphwastaken wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Top guilds aren't going to wait until an item has a high sale value before they go after the encounters in question. Everyone capable of taking the encounter on with a reasonable chance of success will be present. The sale price of the item increasing isn't going to mean more people are suddenly in a position to contest the encounter.

You are thinking too narrow. Are you imagining one random boss, or some small area?

As I've been saying this whole time - I am talking about what ever boss is dropping the best items in the game (or the components to make those items).