DPS Meter Megathread

This discussion was created from comments split from: DPS Meter Megathread.

I’ve instructed the mods to focus any dps meter threads into a single mega thread to help focus and centralize the discussion 👍

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Ludullu

Depraved wrote: »

interlude server T_T

Forgot to answer previous question. Won't be playing L2 unless someone from the forum wants to try it to see what it's about.

I'm actively replacing my knowledge about L2 with AoC's stuff. I've given L2 12 years of my life, so I think that'll be enough for now. And there's a shitton of other games and things I wanna play/watch and playing on an x1 IL server is LONG AND HARD.

Mag7spy

The more people talking about things the more comes to light, I've said before he is out of touch but literally noaani is advocating for bad games dismissing all these points. All these points he has been say for ages all have the same vibe and lack of understanding. He is out of touch with modern games because he does not play them.

Other people have gone into these points so i don't need to be the 3rd or 4th, but it is actually wild.

Ruerik

Noaani wrote: »

Not sure what the hostility here is, tbh.

My bad then, when you wrote, 'then do that then, but dont do this', I took that as telling me how to play my games and live my life.

ZYBAK

Personally all I want are combat logs with POTENTIALLY the ability to export a file.

I understand that an abundance of information can kill the magic of a game but at the same time having combat logs allow for players to understand WTF just happened to them. Without that data it can be extremely frustrating.

Having combat logs also allows for unintended exploits to be discovered more easily as the victims of them can comb through their logs and see what happened.

Mag7spy

ZYBAK wrote: »

Personally all I want are combat logs with POTENTIALLY the ability to export a file.

I understand that an abundance of information can kill the magic of a game but at the same time having combat logs allow for players to understand WTF just happened to them. Without that data it can be extremely frustrating.

Having combat logs also allows for unintended exploits to be discovered more easily as the victims of them can comb through their logs and see what happened.

You learn from experience in the game and paying attention, it is part of the challenge. Simple just wanting to get a answer from a log is just a cheat. It should be an experience with people working together to figure things out as a team.

Log export if something I'll never support. It all leans to more ways for people to use add on, etc to reduce difficulty on the long run and make a worse experience.

Regardless of people trying to use other tools to try to pull information if the goal is to reduce that not allowing players, and having the game done in a way that does not incentive is is the best course. Difficulty should be about skill not reading a log.

Korela

If you don't calculate the outcome of your actions in advance, you'll probably be missing some multipliers.
The best results come from data analysis.
Thus, if the player wants to be as efficient as possible, he is obliged to use the parsing result.
I don't understand why some people want data parsers to repeat, record and process something 100000 times instead of doing a little log parsing in free time.
You will still use the results of data parsers if you want to win.
So why force them to do this stupid job of counting frames for days and nights?

Ruerik

A combat log wouldnt be an addon, its available to everyone.

As players we use it to figure out the damage formula (you know, one of the single most important things the folks making builds rely on)

I understand how you want the magic of just feeling your way through the game by paying attention, which is great for a first playthrough really.

But ashes is a MMO, rpg games always have a huuuuuge population of people looking to push the limits of their class, and for that, we need numbers and data.

As Noaani has pointed out numerous times. For us to get these numbers, we dont need any form of support from the developers, by methods of screen watching, reading incomming network traffic, or any other means the numbers will be made available to theorycrafters to figure out whatever it is they are interested in.

And more importantly unlike a program that is doing automated callouts, none of these methods interact with the game in any way, so Intrepid can do absolutely nothing about it as they never violated terms of service. These folks are going to get their numbers and have a advantage over folks that dont.

The difference is, if there is a combat log (preferably as myself as others have stated with ability to download to txt file), then everyone has access to data if they want it. No programs needed to collect the data. There is no exclusive club of data people vs everyone else, and totally fair.

Also mag7spy, your comment about people working together as a team. Most theorycrafters dont work independently, ever. Just having access to a damage log doesnt suddenly reveal all the answers. Folks usually talk together over a discord as they go over the numbers.

It takes a lot of different ideas and point of views to determine what is really important in evaluating a build in a particular fight, no one person has the full answer. For example.

Would you want to evaluate someone by raw damage done? (termed usually as personal dps) Maybe depending on encounter, but what about when there are buffs and debuffs involved. Then we must quantify just how big the impact was each of those buffs did. (Usually termed as adjusted dps).

What about when a raid team focusing on speedclears, long after initial prog is done and the raid was cleared a long time ago (thats me btw) wants to look for how players can individually work together better. In this case we look for how efficiently players dump thier burst damage in short window team buffs or enemy debuffs, and how things can be adjusted.

You might not see the point of the log or the fun involved in it, but a lot of gamers just like me do enjoy the numbers game, and truly it doesnt impact the difficulty of the game when encounters are still new and fresh as you believe.

I do concede that after encounters have been around for awhile and mechanics are figured out and the fight is "solved", then any data based approach after that will lower the difficulty for players that follow, because they can just look up what someone else did on google. Still, we dont need numbers to make the game easier for the people after us, its inevitable as time goes on that the folks that come after have it easier than the folks that went before.

TLDR version:
I cant see a good reason from not telling players what the numbers are, from a fairness to everyone point of view. It really isnt about making it easier for me to do some math I can already do anyway.

Songcaller

Trying for 200...hope for the win.

Nope, no joy at 200. Oh well, need to reiterate the need for all or none to have a dps meter lol.

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

I just disagree that the quality of those encounters should lack because of their "copyness". And absent animations are an example of such a lack.

I think perhaps you missed my larger point. It wasn't in the post you quoted, so I can't blame you for that.

The difficulty in an encounter shouldn't come from being able to tell what abilities the mob is about to use - that is a never going to be challenging to players that want efficiency.

The challenge with encounters should come from dealing with those abilities.

Take cast bars for example, above I said I don't like them because it is a game mechanic, not an encounter mechanic. I could have gone to greater lengths to explain that adding a game mechanic like cast bars to mobs prevents things like them using multiple abilities, or having instant cast abilities that require attention, but the post was long enough without going in to that detail.

Basically, my point is that the difficulty should come from dealing with encounters, not in knowing what they will do, and that any mechanic that limits what they can do (ie, requiring cast bars) goes against that.

Noaani

Taerrik wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Not sure what the hostility here is, tbh.

My bad then, when you wrote, 'then do that then, but dont do this', I took that as telling me how to play my games and live my life.

All good. Was simply demonstrating that what you want is available. More so for the benefit of others reading as I assume you probably know full well it was an option (I always assume there are 10+ people reading any post I write for every person that comments, and sometimes my comments are for their benefit as opposed to the person I'm directly replying to).

Dygz

Korela wrote: »

If you don't calculate the outcome of your actions in advance, you'll probably be missing some multipliers.
The best results come from data analysis.
Thus, if the player wants to be as efficient as possible, he is obliged to use the parsing result.
I don't understand why some people want data parsers to repeat, record and process something 100000 times instead of doing a little log parsing in free time.
You will still use the results of data parsers if you want to win.
So why force them to do this stupid job of counting frames for days and nights?

Don't need to be as efficient as possible.
At best, just need to be successful, but...
Failure is sometimes part of the narrative, so... failing can be OK, too.

Dygz

Neurath wrote: »

Trying for 200...hope for the win.
Nope, no joy at 200. Oh well, need to reiterate the need for all or none to have a dps meter lol.

(Need about 20 more posts to hit 200 pages.)

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

Korela wrote: »

If you don't calculate the outcome of your actions in advance, you'll probably be missing some multipliers.
The best results come from data analysis.
Thus, if the player wants to be as efficient as possible, he is obliged to use the parsing result.
I don't understand why some people want data parsers to repeat, record and process something 100000 times instead of doing a little log parsing in free time.
You will still use the results of data parsers if you want to win.
So why force them to do this stupid job of counting frames for days and nights?

Don't need to be as efficient as possible.
At best, just need to be successful, but...
Failure is sometimes part of the narrative, so... failing can be OK, too.

I actually agree with your two statements here.

There is no need to be as efficient as possible. Absolutely none at all.

Also, it absolutely is ok to fail sometimes. In fact, occasional failure should be expected.

However, in the same way it is ok to sometimes fail, it is also ok to want to be as efficient as possible.

Ruerik

Dygz wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

Trying for 200...hope for the win.
Nope, no joy at 200. Oh well, need to reiterate the need for all or none to have a dps meter lol.

(Need about 20 more posts to hit 200 pages.)

Getting there!!

Its totally fine to play to be good enough to succeed. Just having a combat log available doesnt mean everyone will be using it the same way nerds like me will.

Such as, when the big fireball spells in game that normally hit for 60,000 suddenly the stars align with buffs and crits and debuffs on enemy and you got that 200,000 crit, fun to take a screenshot of the log.

George_Black

Still?

Noaani

Taerrik wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

Trying for 200...hope for the win.
Nope, no joy at 200. Oh well, need to reiterate the need for all or none to have a dps meter lol.

(Need about 20 more posts to hit 200 pages.)

Getting there!!

Its totally fine to play to be good enough to succeed. Just having a combat log available doesnt mean everyone will be using it the same way nerds like me will.

Such as, when the big fireball spells in game that normally hit for 60,000 suddenly the stars align with buffs and crits and debuffs on enemy and you got that 200,000 crit, fun to take a screenshot of the log.

Indeed.

I've said on these forums (and in this thread) that EQ2's community wasn't really about sharing encounter information.

However, there was a lot of sharing of class builds, a lot of optimization - basically the entire top end community was built around this.

This is why I find it at odds with my experiences when people call combat trackers toxic. Combat trackers build communities as much as break them down - it all depends on the rest of the environment they are used in.

Dygz

Taerrik wrote: »

Its totally fine to play to be good enough to succeed. Just having a combat log available doesnt mean everyone will be using it the same way nerds like me will.

Ashes will have a personal combat log - but not a combat tracker.

Ruerik

Dygz wrote: »

Ashes will have a personal combat log - but not a combat tracker.

Thats almost what I need. I need more than just my own numbers. RPGs have lots of interactions. Players buffs (bards and others) debuffs (necromancers and others) all interact with each person and enemy.

I need a full log, not just myself. To see when these skills and such are lining up with my skills.

SWTOR groups, back when I still played that game, also had ability to have personal only logs. It was a pain but everyone just sending me their logs was good enough.

For basic needs, the personal log is sufficient to design my own builds, but for full maths I need the full logs.

200 soon.

Dygz

You don't need that.
Some people want that.
Can't Always Get What You Want

Gaul_

Dygz wrote: »

You don't need that.
Some people want that.
Can't Always Get What you Want

I heard the music when I read this

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