Leveling & Questing Should Feel Like an Adventure

I really am excited for Ashes and I think this MMO has the potential to fix many issues that MMOs currently have. One of my biggest issues with MMOs is that leveling and questing don't matter and the experience is not engaging in 90% of MMOs. I am sick of filer content that is only in the game to increase your playtime and is not inherently interesting in any way.

I am done doing kill 10 boar quests in every MMO or “role-playing” as a UPS delivery person. There’s no epic adventure. It’s just a checklist of tasks. There’s no intrigue and everything is handed to you. It’s quality over any quality or substance. I’m just tired of this and want quests and leveling to actually feel like an adventure.

Quests should mean something again and tell stories. We should be learning about the world and characters, making decisions that matter, and going on a rewarding journey. It is better for an MMO to have 100 great quests than 1000 forgettable time-wasting quests. Kill-and-collect quests, fetch quests, and errand quests need to be left in 2004. Every quest should matter and be immersive.

Leveling should also mean something. I miss when it mattered and not something you just rushed through. The good part of the game should be available to you as you progress to the level cap not just when you hit the level cap. Obviously, there should be things to work for once you hit the max level that challenges you. But, it is important that there is enough engaging content during the leveling as well so you feel engaged throughout this process. Not just filer quests with the occasional dungeon thrown in.

We need areas of challenge in the leveling process. MMO leveling is too easy. Nothing is challenging anymore until you hit the max level. It is hard to be engaged when you can level half paying attention and still not be at risk of dying. Danger is important to making you respect the world and it keeps things mysterious. It is important that there are some areas in the leveling process that challenge players.

What are your thoughts on how leveling and quests should be in Ashes?

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Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

Only good news with that mmorpg with the lack of information around it, is that they decided to not do a mobile release for that mmorpg.

Talking about a mobile release would've been too big of a scam alert off the bat, considering how they present the game in that trailer.

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Only good news with that mmorpg with the lack of information around it, is that they decided to not do a mobile release for that mmorpg.

Talking about a mobile release would've been too big of a scam alert off the bat, considering how they present the game in that trailer.

Well it was releasing on mobile originally lmao

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

The world is full of promises.

Ah, it's that one game that I immediately considered a scam vaporware

Azherae wrote: »

Did y'all's old RPGs seriously NEVER change the dungeon enemies or distributions, though? I know it's not common to do it, but I'm a bit surprised at the 'doesn't really have any dynamism at all'.

Not even when the weather changed?

I've been telling you, you're in a pretty small minority of people who played a well-designed game I think oldtimers from UO would also fall into that group, but they're not only super old but they themselves ruined the very design we wish for now (which potentially influenced everyone else to not even attempt it)

But to answer, no, if I went to a location in L2, I was going there for very precise loot and I knew I could get it there 24/7.

Wait... that can't be right, not entirely...

Didn't L2 have a day-night cycle at least, that affected spawns?

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

Didn't L2 have a day-night cycle at least, that affected spawns?

It did have d/n cycle and a race passive worked with it, but I do not remember any mobs changing their spawns. Maybe I just didn't farm in places where they did or completely forgot, but I feel like if valuable locations had 2 different mob compositions I would've remembered that.

@Depraved @JamesSunderland did L2 have different mob spawns depending on different in-game situations? I know there was a lvl-based change on the player's side, but that's a separate thing and was a one-time change (well, unless you went down in lvls).

edit: ah, one of the epic bosses had a change depending on day/night, right

Azherae

I don't necessarily just mean spawns entirely because that's a weird lot of work involving despawning and stuff.

What about sleeping, differences in aggression, or patrol routes? Stuff like that? I have some reasons to believe that this might be part of the Lineage of those games, y'know? Maybe something added later?

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

What about sleeping, differences in aggression, or patrol routes? Stuff like that? I have some reasons to believe that this might be part of the Lineage of those games, y'know? Maybe something added later?

This might be the case of my "dumbass player type"

cause I got no damn clue if any of that was in the game throughout my gameplay. I saw mobs - I killed them. I didn't pay attention if their behavior changed throughout the day, mainly because I only paid attention to myself not dying and them dying

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

What about sleeping, differences in aggression, or patrol routes? Stuff like that? I have some reasons to believe that this might be part of the Lineage of those games, y'know? Maybe something added later?

This might be the case of my "dumbass player type" cause I got no damn clue if any of that was in the game throughout my gameplay. I saw mobs - I killed them. I didn't pay attention if their behavior changed throughout the day, mainly because I only paid attention to myself not dying and them dying

Fair enough, y'all all have my sympathies as always, but I bet L2 had a lot more of this stuff than you noticed. It's not WoW, after all.

So, to contribute to the thread's original point...

People have changed their very idea of what it means to level, so I don't think Ashes can be that hardcore. And if the reason they can be hardcore is because the '270 hours' is 'average or above average player', then to me, it's fine however they do it.

Basically, I know we're not going back to the really hard times of my youth where an at-level enemy gave twice as much exp as an enemy ONE level below that and Quests didn't give any exp at all.

I don't care if we do or not, either. All it has to do is be rewarding/engaging for those who want to push the limits, can even be 'horizontal progression during leveling'. That way, people like me can 'waste our time' on it while all the serious players push to the end and skip all that stuff.

Ashes can appeal to both the 'I want to adventure and feel a real connection with the world' and the 'I want to clash with other players over bosses at max level' sides of the spectrum, they just gotta provide some reason that the 'immersion' players don't go play something else.

JamesSunderland

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Didn't L2 have a day-night cycle at least, that affected spawns?

It did have d/n cycle and a race passive worked with it, but I do not remember any mobs changing their spawns. Maybe I just didn't farm in places where they did or completely forgot, but I feel like if valuable locations had 2 different mob compositions I would've remembered that.

@Depraved @JamesSunderland did L2 have different mob spawns depending on different in-game situations? I know there was a lvl-based change on the player's side, but that's a separate thing and was a one-time change (well, unless you went down in lvls).

edit: ah, one of the epic bosses had a change depending on day/night, right

Monsters in Devil's Pass only spawned at Night, and Forest of the Dead had weaker Undead monsters spawn during the day and stronger(and more aggressive) Vampire monsters spawn during the night(Forest of the Dead Raid Boss Eilhalder von Hellmann only spawned at midnight).

Ludullu

JamesSunderland wrote: »

Monsters in Devil's Pass only spawned at Night, and Forest of the Death had weaker Undead monsters spawn during the day and stronger(and more aggressive) Vampire monsters spawn during the night(Forest of the Death Raid Boss Eilhalder von Hellmann only spawned at midnight).

Riiight, the FotD did change at night. But I definitely didn't notice that DP's activity only existed at night. Maybe just didn't pay attention to that or didn't farm it often enough.

But I think that I simply considered FotD's changes "a rare spawn"

Maybe I knew that it changed mobs at night, but I do not remember at this point. I definitely didn't pay enough attention to that particular location though, which is why my memory of it is way weaker.

JamesSunderland

NiKr wrote: »

But I think that I simply considered FotD's changes "a rare spawn" Maybe I knew that it changed mobs at night, but I do not remember at this point. I definitely didn't pay enough attention to that particular location though, which is why my memory of it is way weaker.

I remember farming there in C4 version, during the day for the Materials Quest and to spoil Dark Legion's Edge Recipe and at night grouping up to kill Von Hellmann.

ArnasPanika

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Didn't L2 have a day-night cycle at least, that affected spawns?

It did have d/n cycle and a race passive worked with it, but I do not remember any mobs changing their spawns. Maybe I just didn't farm in places where they did or completely forgot, but I feel like if valuable locations had 2 different mob compositions I would've remembered that.

@Depraved @JamesSunderland did L2 have different mob spawns depending on different in-game situations? I know there was a lvl-based change on the player's side, but that's a separate thing and was a one-time change (well, unless you went down in lvls).

edit: ah, one of the epic bosses had a change depending on day/night, right

What @JamesSunderland said + in Blazing Swamp the Tulbin bat was passive mob at day time and aggro mob at night.

Enigmatic Sage

I'm in favour of environmental conditions affecting mobs. Biome, weather, time of day, lunar cycles, eclipses, astrological alignments etc.

There's lot's of fun options for status conditions and effects such as metamorphic, frenzied, adjustable aggro range, special abilities etc

Songcaller

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

I'm in favour of environmental conditions affecting mobs. Biome, weather, time of day, lunar cycles, eclipses, astrological alignments etc.

There's lot's of fun options for status conditions and effects such as metamorphic, frenzied, adjustable aggro range, special abilities etc

Sounds like WoW creep from mythic plus. Changing mobs, layout and bosses is preferred to the same mobs getting different buffs in my opinion.

Depraved

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Didn't L2 have a day-night cycle at least, that affected spawns?

It did have d/n cycle and a race passive worked with it, but I do not remember any mobs changing their spawns. Maybe I just didn't farm in places where they did or completely forgot, but I feel like if valuable locations had 2 different mob compositions I would've remembered that.

@Depraved @JamesSunderland did L2 have different mob spawns depending on different in-game situations? I know there was a lvl-based change on the player's side, but that's a separate thing and was a one-time change (well, unless you went down in lvls).

edit: ah, one of the epic bosses had a change depending on day/night, right

yes in forest of the dead. mobs would change depending on day or night.

there were also quests.

there is a long quest line and at some point you have to go at a certain time of the day to talk to some npc, cuz they turn into vampires. and u have to kill an rb that only spawns at night.

dont remember if there are other stuff like that too

Enigmatic Sage

Neurath wrote: »

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

I'm in favour of environmental conditions affecting mobs. Biome, weather, time of day, lunar cycles, eclipses, astrological alignments etc.

There's lot's of fun options for status conditions and effects such as metamorphic, frenzied, adjustable aggro range, special abilities etc

Sounds like WoW creep from mythic plus. Changing mobs, layout and bosses is preferred to the same mobs getting different buffs in my opinion.

I guess?.. lol.

Sure many games have done different methods to apply status effects to mobs/npcs under specific conditions.
I was referring to more things such as:

if it's a full moon maybe there would be random werewolf spawns at night or a lunar eclipse there could be frenzied undead. Biome and Node level could affect these as well.

lots of options.

Songcaller

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

I'm in favour of environmental conditions affecting mobs. Biome, weather, time of day, lunar cycles, eclipses, astrological alignments etc.

There's lot's of fun options for status conditions and effects such as metamorphic, frenzied, adjustable aggro range, special abilities etc

Sounds like WoW creep from mythic plus. Changing mobs, layout and bosses is preferred to the same mobs getting different buffs in my opinion.

I guess?.. lol.

Sure many games have done different methods to apply status effects to mobs/npcs under specific conditions.
I was referring to more things such as:

if it's a full moon maybe there would be random werewolf spawns at night or a lunar eclipse there could be frenzied undead. Biome and Node level could affect these as well.

lots of options.

Yeah, thanks for the clarification. I can get behind such notions. I just don't like the way WoW does stuff in Mythic Plus. You can make difficulties increase without having the health, attack, defence stats increase on the same mobs over and over again. I'd rather have different animations, different ability sets and different pathing/groupings. Basically, the need to work on the fly and not just healing checks, dps checks and tanking checks (which are good but not when that's the whole shebang).

Enigmatic Sage

Neurath wrote: »

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

I'm in favour of environmental conditions affecting mobs. Biome, weather, time of day, lunar cycles, eclipses, astrological alignments etc.

There's lot's of fun options for status conditions and effects such as metamorphic, frenzied, adjustable aggro range, special abilities etc

Sounds like WoW creep from mythic plus. Changing mobs, layout and bosses is preferred to the same mobs getting different buffs in my opinion.

I guess?.. lol.

Sure many games have done different methods to apply status effects to mobs/npcs under specific conditions.
I was referring to more things such as:

if it's a full moon maybe there would be random werewolf spawns at night or a lunar eclipse there could be frenzied undead. Biome and Node level could affect these as well.

lots of options.

Yeah, thanks for the clarification. I can get behind such notions. I just don't like the way WoW does stuff in Mythic Plus. You can make difficulties increase without having the health, attack, defence stats increase on the same mobs over and over again. I'd rather have different animations, different ability sets and different pathing/groupings. Basically, the need to work on the fly and not just healing checks, dps checks and tanking checks (which are good but not when that's the whole shebang).

No worries.

Once you said WoW I figured what you were thinking of. Exactly my point though with the health and stat fluctuations. It doesn't have to be every mob type at once but certain mobs can be interestingly more dangerous situationally.

Veeshan

Azherae wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

The world is full of promises.

Ah, it's that one game that I immediately considered a scam vaporware

Azherae wrote: »

Did y'all's old RPGs seriously NEVER change the dungeon enemies or distributions, though? I know it's not common to do it, but I'm a bit surprised at the 'doesn't really have any dynamism at all'.

Not even when the weather changed?

I've been telling you, you're in a pretty small minority of people who played a well-designed game I think oldtimers from UO would also fall into that group, but they're not only super old but they themselves ruined the very design we wish for now (which potentially influenced everyone else to not even attempt it)

But to answer, no, if I went to a location in L2, I was going there for very precise loot and I knew I could get it there 24/7.

Wait... that can't be right, not entirely...

Didn't L2 have a day-night cycle at least, that affected spawns?

Everquest 1 in 1999 had day night cycle that effected spawns too. the big example here is there a reason you dont go to kithicor at night. It affected other spawns/mobs too but this zone got the brunt of it.
pretty much lore wise there was a huge battle here and all the dead come alive again when the sun goes down, it a relativly low level zone during the day like 1-20 or something but when the sun goes down it fiulled with level 35-45 undead or something

Flashfirez23

Mag7spy wrote: »

Is there a game you reference in what would be a good example for what you want?

I understand what you are saying questing in mmorpgs have always been bad but there are reasons for that as well. You aren't going to get a god of war experience in a mmorpg.

There’s no reason why MMO questing can’t be just as good as single player games. You can do questing like the Witcher or BG3. The problem is MMOs tend to make way too many quests. And put quantity over quality. It’s a design decision. I think RuneScape, Star Wars, GW2, and FF14 do questing better than most mmos however even some of these mmos I’ve listed add in unnecessary chore style quests that ruin their overall questing and leveling experience.

Songcaller

50 epic quests would be preferred. Quests that are long, difficult and exploratory in nature. Completion of each one would get you a level.

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