A case of Kaelar wooden toy Soldiers and the magical yellow Fighter hammer.

My conceen is that the Devs have encountered a problem with caravans being used to transport mats from region to region and deter players from just loading their bags and avoiding the caravan pvp risk.

The cargo we saw today is part of the transported caravan goods.

The original idea was that players must transport goods from one region to the next to make a profit.
To which players said "why risk using caravans? Might as well carry bags".
Steven said there will be other reasons to do so.
Today we saw those reasons.
To sell toy soldiers to NPCs. Aren't we sending heroes back to Vera?
There are no kids here so we dont need to sell toys to NPCs.
I mean since people are strict with the lore and insist that due to the lore a Fighter must summon giant yellow magic hammers because fighters in vera (that has no kids but has toy soldiers) because Fighters are a bit magical.

I say let's go back to the origonal plan of having to carry materials with caravans and players can loot useful materials (not npc gameplay toy soldiers) to craft or sell. Social gameplay, that holds together pvp pve crafting gathering exploration etc etc.
Not npc vendor gameplay and bound currencies.
Also, to combat rmt we need account activity tracking with red flags, not making content NPC centered.

Work out the logistics Devs. Find a way to force material transport via caravans.
Only RPers will be interested in running caravans for the NPCs gold payments.

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Ludullu

Neurath wrote: »

If you chose a PvE route you'd have an endless supply of glint to go back and forth with unless PvP players got involved.

Which I think is the pinnacle of Steven's vision for pvx

You have your track of "northern most point to southern most point" and you're just running that shit from dawn till dusk with your guild. The glint is neverending because you'll keep getting mobs in your way, and the pvp is neverending because others will know your track.

Fuck, there's a whole russian tv show about this. It's called Truckers

the entire show is about dudes hauling stuff in their big truck and random shit (quite often bandits) happening to them on the road.

Songcaller

Yeah, going back and forth all day every day means the exchange rate would be decimated though.

Ludullu

Neurath wrote: »

Yeah, going back and forth all day every day means the exchange rate would be decimated though.

Changing the destination node every other time would most likely solve this issue though.

Also, I completely missed this at first, but don't glints allow for uber grindable abuses now? With certs we had certain drops that would tie your farm to a location, but now with glints you can grind any location on the map and then just choose the nodes that you wanna start and finish at.

How did I miss that at first

Yeah, this system is getting shittier and shitter the more I think about it

Songcaller

You can farm glints anywhere. In fact, your request to have all types of glints drop off all types of mobs mean people will get legendary glint from common mobs which will only exacerbate the issues lol.

Ludullu

Neurath wrote: »

You can farm glints anywhere. In fact, your request to have all types of glints drop off all types of mobs mean people will get legendary glint from common mobs which will only exacerbate the issues lol.

Yeah, I already gave my feedback on that in the main thread. Fuck glints

Songcaller

NiKr wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

You can farm glints anywhere. In fact, your request to have all types of glints drop off all types of mobs mean people will get legendary glint from common mobs which will only exacerbate the issues lol.

Yeah, I already gave my feedback on that in the main thread. Fuck glints

check my response lol.

Ludullu

I don't wanna spam that thread with back and forth

Neurath wrote: »

It won't work. The issue is not the currencies, the issue is the commodities and the planned caravan system. You would still buy commodities with certificates which you would still earn on route, in random locations, on mass and when wanted.

This comes down to the chicken and egg dilemma. Were it the glints that changed the system to commodities or was it the other way around.

Either way, I prefer certs way more.

Songcaller

Well...I always thought it would be certificates I was carting across the world. Which means, localised certificates would have been negligible gold earnt but the stuff from far away would be higher gold earnt. Thus there would be balance, risk and reward. The current planned system has no balance, has little risk and has tons of reward.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

Yeah, going back and forth all day every day means the exchange rate would be decimated though.

Changing the destination node every other time would most likely solve this issue though.

Also, I completely missed this at first, but don't glints allow for uber grindable abuses now? With certs we had certain drops that would tie your farm to a location, but now with glints you can grind any location on the map and then just choose the nodes that you wanna start and finish at.

How did I miss that at first Yeah, this system is getting shittier and shitter the more I think about it

It's not an abuse if it's intentional.

If you ask yourself 'given the goals of Ashes (not the ones we nerds imagine, the ones that are likely to be definite) is this a downside at all?' the answer is 'no'.

There's nothing about Ashes that suffers as a result of this. They 'promised' an important economy, not a 'structured one'. Those things aren't the same. All their claims are still valid.

Songcaller

Have we created a monster or have the devs? Are we complicit in making everyone exceptionally rich and the inflation exceptionally high in the future live game? Only A2 will tell us.

George_Black

Anything discussion that doesn't challenge the core themes of the game is valid. Respectfully we can show them our opposition.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

If you ask yourself 'given the goals of Ashes (not the ones we nerds imagine, the ones that are likely to be definite) is this a downside at all?' the answer is 'no'.

Doesn't this mess with their world manager (if it's even still in the plan)?

Previously, in theory, if you grinded mountain wolves for their pelts the manager would see that and could decide whether to increase their spawn rate to curb your profits, because those pelts only dropped from those wolves (in theory). This would then put pressure on you to go trade those pelts out, because the time spent transferring them would be more beneficial than farming them in that same place with their high respawn (because there's no substitute for the mob).

Now, you can grind literally anyone literally anywhere and still profit to high heaven, because the core loot is untethered from the farming location. This puts no pressure to move your "product", because its source is limitless, no matter the WM actions.

Untethered farming also introduces unbalance to node progress, because some places will be way easier to just grind out than others, which could lead to unbalanced decay processes, which can impact whole node chains.

Maybe we're yet again missing some internal changes to systems that address all of this, but then we're back to the "we made a change that brought problems, so we made a change to address those problems, which brought a problem, so we mage a change..."

And all of this then gets "checked" with viewer feedback that's based on absolute lack of knowledge of any other changes

I know you're trying to stay away from this, but god damn does this look like a mess.

Songcaller

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

If you ask yourself 'given the goals of Ashes (not the ones we nerds imagine, the ones that are likely to be definite) is this a downside at all?' the answer is 'no'.

Doesn't this mess with their world manager (if it's even still in the plan)?

Previously, in theory, if you grinded mountain wolves for their pelts the manager would see that and could decide whether to increase their spawn rate to curb your profits, because those pelts only dropped from those wolves (in theory). This would then put pressure on you to go trade those pelts out, because the time spent transferring them would be more beneficial than farming them in that same place with their high respawn (because there's no substitute for the mob).

Now, you can grind literally anyone literally anywhere and still profit to high heaven, because the core loot is untethered from the farming location. This puts no pressure to move your "product", because its source is limitless, no matter the WM actions.

Untethered farming also introduces unbalance to node progress, because some places will be way easier to just grind out than others, which could lead to unbalanced decay processes, which can impact whole node chains.

Maybe we're yet again missing some internal changes to systems that address all of this, but then we're back to the "we made a change that brought problems, so we made a change to address those problems, which brought a problem, so we mage a change..."

And all of this then gets "checked" with viewer feedback that's based on absolute lack of knowledge of any other changes I know you're trying to stay away from this, but god damn does this look like a mess.

Its only a mess because there was no PvP. Ask yourself this question - When Glints can make you a multi millionaire and everyone drops glints on death, how many PKers will resist PKing?

Liniker

I don't know why all the fuss tbh nothing really changed, Glint is the same concept as old Certificates, its just simplified version, which I appreciate, if they did the exact same system but instead of multiple glint rarities it had multiple glint variations called "wolf teeth" "dragon scale" would y'all be happy?

if yes, then what you are complaining about is just that you don't like the name and icon of the certificate... which imo is completely irrelevant and similar to the change the tank name thread

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

If you ask yourself 'given the goals of Ashes (not the ones we nerds imagine, the ones that are likely to be definite) is this a downside at all?' the answer is 'no'.

Doesn't this mess with their world manager (if it's even still in the plan)?

Previously, in theory, if you grinded mountain wolves for their pelts the manager would see that and could decide whether to increase their spawn rate to curb your profits, because those pelts only dropped from those wolves (in theory). This would then put pressure on you to go trade those pelts out, because the time spent transferring them would be more beneficial than farming them in that same place with their high respawn (because there's no substitute for the mob).

Now, you can grind literally anyone literally anywhere and still profit to high heaven, because the core loot is untethered from the farming location. This puts no pressure to move your "product", because its source is limitless, no matter the WM actions.

Untethered farming also introduces unbalance to node progress, because some places will be way easier to just grind out than others, which could lead to unbalanced decay processes, which can impact whole node chains.

Maybe we're yet again missing some internal changes to systems that address all of this, but then we're back to the "we made a change that brought problems, so we made a change to address those problems, which brought a problem, so we mage a change..."

And all of this then gets "checked" with viewer feedback that's based on absolute lack of knowledge of any other changes I know you're trying to stay away from this, but god damn does this look like a mess.

No, the WM should work fine.

The assumption we probably had about the WM was that things OTHER than Commodities mattered to it. But technically the WM always only implied that it worked relative to Certificates, in terms of monetary values.

But nothing requires that. Steven could have decided that he wanted a World Manager primarily to cause Trade Routes (due to being an ArcheAge fan), and AA doesn't need any integration between 'what you farm' and 'trade route money'. Thankfully it has integration, but if you were 'deciding if to remove it so that you could get more Caravan content', it wouldn't be a 'we can't do that' situation.

In short, again, there's nothing inherently wrong with this, you, George and I just happen to be in the group of players that don't like it. This isn't one of those situations where those who do like it are overlooking something obvious about the game's core requirements. Just another direction.

Songcaller

Liniker wrote: »

I don't know why all the fuss tbh nothing really changed, Glint is Certificates, its just simplified version, if they did the exact same system but instead of multiple glint rarities it had multiple glint variations called "wolf teeth" "dragon scale" would y'all be happy?

if yes, then what you are complaining about is just that you don't like the name and icon of the certificate... which imo is completely irrelevant

I could explain...I should explain...I can't really explain. Here goes:

Certificates were localised. You got fuck all for them locally and had to travel long distances to make max profit. You could gain local certificates along the route but localised prices would be lower.

Glints: drop everywhere. Have different tiers and the lowest tier sells for 40 silver a time we've seen so far. That's locally. However, x8 local node is 3 gold 20 from the sale. Not sure how much you get from the other side of the map, however, every glint you achieve on route and locally has no gold value until exchange from commodities. This means that there is no downside to the system. localised prices don't really exist. Only huge profit from the multipliers even in a node next door.

Ludullu

Neurath wrote: »

Its only a mess because there was no PvP. Ask yourself this question - When Glints can make you a multi millionaire and everyone drops glints on death, how many PKers will resist PKing?

Like I said, this would depend on whether stolen stuff has any interaction with other systems (outside of black markets). If no, then it's gonna be PK galore. Which kinda goes against Steven's desire to have less PKing, but I'm fucking sure that he'll solve that "issue" by just tuning corruption balancing so damn hard that PKers simply can't "galore"

Songcaller

NiKr wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

Its only a mess because there was no PvP. Ask yourself this question - When Glints can make you a multi millionaire and everyone drops glints on death, how many PKers will resist PKing?

Like I said, this would depend on whether stolen stuff has any interaction with other systems (outside of black markets). If no, then it's gonna be PK galore. Which kinda goes against Steven's desire to have less PKing, but I'm fucking sure that he'll solve that "issue" by just tuning corruption balancing so damn hard that PKers simply can't "galore"

I've only heard of the Black Markets. I haven't heard of other systems Stolen Glint can be used in. The worst part is the corrupted players will earn tons of stolen glint and then earn tons of glint grinding the corruption off in pve. Granted, the bounty hunters might get involved but otherwise those PKers will be very rich.

Ludullu

Neurath wrote: »

I've only heard of the Black Markets. I haven't heard of other systems Stolen Glint can be used in. The worst part is the corrupted players will earn tons of stolen glint and then earn tons of glint grinding the corruption off in pve. Granted, the bounty hunters might get involved but otherwise those PKers will be very rich.

I'm curious what happens to the stolen stuff if it drops from the PKer. I assume they remain "stolen", so the only thing you can do with them is go trade them at the market. Though stolen stuff also becomes tradeable. Which means that parties can go around with a PKer friend, have him kill people and loot them, then kill him for stolen glint and do with that glint whatever they want.

And if stolen glint also has the same rarity as the original stuff, PKing everyone and anyone would be viable (especially if all rarities of glint have a chance to drop from any mob).

Which brings us to more PKers, which means harsher corruption balancing, which means less owpvp, which pushes pvpers towards more caravan/sea raids, which means that only guilds survive, which means casuals toil away in the mines. And who knows for how long they'll agree to do that.

And we come back to the nicheness of the game. Guess it does all make sense and I hope it doesn't all burn down into the Ashes (pun intended).

Songcaller

NiKr wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

I've only heard of the Black Markets. I haven't heard of other systems Stolen Glint can be used in. The worst part is the corrupted players will earn tons of stolen glint and then earn tons of glint grinding the corruption off in pve. Granted, the bounty hunters might get involved but otherwise those PKers will be very rich.

I'm curious what happens to the stolen stuff if it drops from the PKer. I assume they remain "stolen", so the only thing you can do with them is go trade them at the market. Though stolen stuff also becomes tradeable. Which means that parties can go around with a PKer friend, have him kill people and loot them, then kill him for stolen glint and do with that glint whatever they want.

And if stolen glint also has the same rarity as the original stuff, PKing everyone and anyone would be viable (especially if all rarities of glint have a chance to drop from any mob).

Which brings us to more PKers, which means harsher corruption balancing, which means less owpvp, which pushes pvpers towards more caravan/sea raids, which means that only guilds survive, which means casuals toil away in the mines. And who knows for how long they'll agree to do that.

And we come back to the nicheness of the game. Guess it does all make sense and I hope it doesn't all burn down into the Ashes (pun intended).

I resurrected your old idea. I did ping you in the other thread

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