Warning from my previous experiences facing healers balanced around PvE.

simply put; they end up mandatory. a grp with a healer cannot lose in pvp againt a grp with out one.
i'm active on new world and the current meta is anti heal proc on everything.
it was true in dark age of camelot 20 years ago and it's still an issue today.

love you, cant wait for the alpha.

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Chaos_Legion

Noone wants to get rid of damage dealers, but everyone can insult a healer. #HealersArePeopleToo

Dripyula

Chaos_Legion wrote: »

Noone wants to get rid of damage dealers, but everyone can insult a healer. #HealersArePeopleToo

A good healer can defend oneself. In most if not all situations in which people die, it is never the Healers fault.
DPS has crowdcontrol too very often so they should use it instead of just focussing on DPS.
The Tank should wait as well and always check if the Healer has mana left.

A few times when I still played WoW and joined "Looking for Group" random instances, I saw some Tanks that clearly mistook themself for maincharacters. When they were just Tanks.
They never stopped progressing through the instance.

When they aggro'd one group of mobs, a group that should be DEAD before the group passes on to the next group of mobs, the Tanks did not waited until the group was dead.
Instead they walked backwards while nicely holding aggro and tanked the evermore accumulating mobs.

Wanna know why they did it?

Because they were extremly well geared Tanks who were probably also used to extremely well geared groups of DPS and a Healer. So these "individuals" simply refused to wait.
They refused to acknowledge the reality that this was just a random group of "blue equipped" people or maybe very "cheaply purple equipped" people.
Which resulted in either the mobs not dying fast enough, or the Healer not following up enough.
And ultimately the Tanks died.
In one instance... after the Tank had pulled half of the instance.

And the cherry on top was their IMMEDIATE RAGEQUIT about 2 or 3 seconds after their death!
Not even an insult, not even the blamegame! NO! Only a silent, immature and cringe looking ragequit.
Oh but maybe after writing for a minute or so
" More heals, more damage! ", while backpaddeling with +8 mobs on themself.

I've heard of such people before. They have some kind of wierd elitism mindset which did not allow them to compromise cause that would make them feel "inferior".
So if there was an instance that they could clear in 15 minutes, but takes normal group 20 to 25 minutes and they could not reach their elitism qouta, they would just quit.
BUT ONLY AFTER HAVING DRAGGED THE GROUP FOR 8 WHOLE MINUTES THROUGH THE DUNGEON ALREADY so in fact they have wasted MORE TIME than less, which makes them look even stupider!

And since it was a LFG group, we found a new tank after like 20 or 30 seconds

and finished the instance with him in the next 10 minutes or so.
What for cloooooooowns some tanks were.
Oh yeah but a few of them left after quickly spewing
" Trash! " " Losers, quit the game! " and then were never seen again!

Aszkalon

Chaos_Legion wrote: »

Noone wants to get rid of damage dealers, but everyone can insult a healer. #HealersArePeopleToo

Same as nobody wants to get rid' of Healers, but everyone can (and DOES, often

) insult a Damage Dealer.

I am just afraid to see the typical WoW Scenario return.

- > One Team has a Healer in a Fight - > the Team with a Healer automatically wins.

- > One of the two Teams has TWO Healers instead of One - > the Team with two Healers automatically wins.

And so on - and so on ... ...

Imagine a Game, where in a Battle of for Example Ten versus Ten or Fifteen versus Fifteen People,

the Team with 5 Healers or above automatically wins - > or must RRR~EEAALLY f~xxx up, in Order to lose. 😅
You would logically start to ask yourself,
of why not Everyone plays a Healer. At least everyone who wants to win.

Ruerik

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Healing

A: Ashes aims to be a more difficult leveling experience than perhaps we have been accustomed to over the past decade of MMO gameplay. And with that in mind, when it comes to balancing during Alpha-2 and thereafter, there is not going to be an overage of healing that's available. We will tune those things. We'll have an opportunity to balance those things... Some of the debuff options that the fighter class has within their class kit are debuffs that can reduce received healing on the target.[9] – Steven Sharif

I don't think we have too much to worry about, when it comes to healers generating automatic wins. They already have in mind mechanisms to give us ways to fight healers that can heal boss damage. (We dont do boss levels of damage in most games is what I mean, but healers can handle it)

Seems to me Intrepid have already had this on their mind, but its a low priority currently since they are trying to reach other milestones first before class balance.

Dryadez

Aszkalon wrote: »

Chaos_Legion wrote: »

Noone wants to get rid of damage dealers, but everyone can insult a healer. #HealersArePeopleToo

Same as nobody wants to get rid' of Healers, but everyone can (and DOES, often ) insult a Damage Dealer.

I am just afraid to see the typical WoW Scenario return.

- > One Team has a Healer in a Fight - > the Team with a Healer automatically wins.

- > One of the two Teams has TWO Healers instead of One - > the Team with two Healers automatically wins.

And so on - and so on ... ...

Imagine a Game, where in a Battle of for Example Ten versus Ten or Fifteen versus Fifteen People,

the Team with 5 Healers or above automatically wins - > or must RRR~EEAALLY f~xxx up, in Order to lose. 😅
You would logically start to ask yourself,
of why not Everyone plays a Healer. At least everyone who wants to win.

god i hate that. Getting into a WoW bg where we got no heals other team is 20-40% healers... and we either organize like an elite SWAT team to suppress and take them out or lose without killing a single one of them.

GL random pug team, it'll be over quickly at least...

Aszkalon

Dryadez wrote: »

god i hate that. Getting into a WoW bg where we got no heals other team is 20-40% healers... and we either organize like an elite SWAT team to suppress and take them out or lose without killing a single one of them.

GL random pug team, it'll be over quickly at least...

RIGHT ???

It's ABSOLUTE. CANCER. !!!!!

People managed to program PvP right at "SOME" Point in the Past ... ... ...

... ... ... not making it an absolute Shitshow as soon as One Specc and Class was present in certain Numbers or at all ... ... ... 😅

Thokan

Hi, PvP fan here. What a thread of bollocks.

P0GG0 wrote: »

simply put; they end up mandatory. a grp with a healer cannot lose in pvp againt a grp with out one.
i'm active on new world and the current meta is anti heal proc on everything.
it was true in dark age of camelot 20 years ago and it's still an issue today.

love you, cant wait for the alpha.

Ofcours healers in a Holy Trinity game will be very nice to have. They end up mandatory, only if you feel the need for a 100% optimized group - just like a tank, DPS, utility class would be mandatory in the same scenario.

A group with a healer can absolutely lose in PvP against a group without one. There is no need to paint your fears and assumptions as hard truths.

New World is not relevant in any kind of way. There is zero comparison between a Holy Trinity Tab-Target MMO and a Three Button Action MMO (which is horrible btw).

You correctly point out there is but one healing class to the others. But from this you extract that balancing has already been made to make the one healing class overpowered in groups because they will supposedly hold up the raids by themselves. Hold up, buddy. We're not even at the balancing part. Again, you have drawn a conclusion from your assumptions.

You argue heavily against the Trinity, already thinking the non-existent balancing and non-existent class designs has made any setup except the perfect group composition useless. Surprisingly enough, this is not the case and nothing says it will be.

You know what would be worse than a poorly balanced Trinity combat? Any other combat.

Do you really think there will be a more lenient, broader meta if you replace group based combat and trinity for a more action-oriented combat where the meta is whatever DPS class does the most damage that patch? A combat designed to where everyone can do everything is a combat where the one meta build will be the one build. Yuck.

I for one fully enjoy a good, nice PvP combat where the Trinity comes into play where you got shot-calling, DPS trying to burst the healers, players trying to CC and peel, et cetera. Thats a combat where coordination wins, not the dumbest DPS meta.

You keep using the word static. Do you want to slide on the floors like in CoD?

It's really hard to understand what you even think is bad with "Healing in PvP like healing in PvE". Why would we want it? Because it's a nonsensical question. Im guessing you are looking for an action MMO in a tab target MMO. You aint gonna get it. Sorry.

P.S Stop being rude, bub. Jeebus. D.S

Electronn

So much whining in this thread by people who think they should be able out-dps a skilled healer, and people who get annoyed that they would have killed someone if the healer hadn't healed lmfao. That's part of the game. The reason healers exist is to mitigate damage and ensure survivability of the group. As a cost for this, the healers should have a hard time dealing enough damage to kill even a non-healer. But that should be a spectrum, based on the individual's skill points. If you want to spec hard into healing, then you're going to need to sacrifice the damage you can do (and thus, soloability). If you want to spec into some damage (and increase ability to solo), then you're going to sacrifice some healing.

Also, the nature of the trinity is that a properly balanced group has an advantage over a non-balanced group.

So yes, it should be hard for a dps to down a healer, but it should also be hard for the healer to down the dps. And a group that is properly balanced to include healing should have an advantage over one that isn't.

Thokan

Tacquito wrote: »

So much whining in this thread by people who think they should be able out-dps a skilled healer, and people who get annoyed that they would have killed someone if the healer hadn't healed lmfao. That's part of the game. The reason healers exist is to mitigate damage and ensure survivability of the group. As a cost for this, the healers should have a hard time dealing enough damage to kill even a non-healer. But that should be a spectrum, based on the individual's skill points. If you want to spec hard into healing, then you're going to need to sacrifice the damage you can do (and thus, soloability). If you want to spec into some damage (and increase ability to solo), then you're going to sacrifice some healing.

Also, the nature of the trinity is that a properly balanced group has an advantage over a non-balanced group.

So yes, it should be hard for a dps to down a healer, but it should also be hard for the healer to down the dps. And a group that is properly balanced to include healing should have an advantage over one that isn't.

It's literally that easy. Nice summary.

JC31

This is a role playing game people calm down, it's not PVP or PVE it's a RPG that is massively multiplayer.

Scarctic

I don't get why there isn't an equal ratio between roles in this class system.

They should make the Fighter a tank and the minstrel a healer class. Case solved!
Oh and rename the archetype "tank" into "guardian".

Effah

JC31 wrote: »

This is a role playing game people calm down, it's not PVP or PVE it's a RPG that is massively multiplayer.

so funny how people dont see the problem with that. how are those two things supposed to be balanced when they are totally different things.

one is a rigid fight and the other should feel like a battle field.

Azherae

P0GG0 wrote: »

Kilion wrote: »

How about actually adressing what I said?
Whats wrong with testing the current system in the Alpha and reserve judgement for that time?

if we take that approach then lets just shut down the whole forums ? just talking about my experience on what happens when the meta relies around broken healers leading to boring zergs. seen it over and over while you were still sucking ur mom's tits.

look at how many people click'd on the topic that's about 900 people that kept the thread clean from a lack opinion or care. maybe learn from them ?

you forum warriors are a meme. you don't represent anything. if you wana go off topic ever two minutes just go on a discord chan.

P0GG0 wrote: »

JC31 wrote: »

This is a role playing game people calm down, it's not PVP or PVE it's a RPG that is massively multiplayer.

so funny how people dont see the problem with that. how are those two things supposed to be balanced when they are totally different things.

one is a rigid fight and the other should feel like a battle field.

It's because for some people, PvE doesn't mean 'rigid fight'.

Effah

let me guess you never pvp.

Xuri

edit: Disregard.

Azherae

P0GG0 wrote: »

let me guess you never pvp.

I only PvP at Night, during Thunderstorms, on Darksday, at level 60, so I can really maximize my counterstrats against enemy healers.

(in case it isn't clear, the above is a joke)

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

(in case it isn't clear, the above is a joke)

Orgagriffith

I think non-healer groups can by viable in PvP by tuning the time-to-kill alongside a healer's kit.
I think if you have healer classes that is limited to "big saves" on a CD comparable to the TTK (rather than health bar upkeep)then there is more counterplay against healers.

I dont think that fits the "trinity" so im not sure it will be required. I do find this playstyle more fun when I play healer so I hope that it will be a build option at the very lest. Maybe on an enchanter like a bard.

Diamaht

P0GG0 wrote: »

that's anti fun, i want 4 people to beat 4 lesser player by being better rather than who has the perfect composition. i'm so tired of sitting in town waiting for that holy trinity. Do it for pve no problem but dont ruin my pvp experience by being intellectually lazy. with that mindset no wonder people just wait for the bigger zerg and actualy never fight.

To be honest all that ever produces are all dps groups. You can see this now in SWTOR, the game doesn't require a healer for anything so all you see are dps every where. It's boring as hell.

Having powerful healers makes battles longer and more strategic. You have to account for something instead of just alpha striking everything.

Giving tanks better methods of controlling the battlefield would actually be the answer to healers. Not nerfing healers. A tank in your face that can actually hinder your ability to heal is a great way to solve the issue. In current mmos tanks are pretty much ingnorable in pvp.

Effah

Diamaht wrote: »

To be honest all that ever produces are all dps groups. You can see this now in SWTOR, the game doesn't require a healer for anything so all you see are dps every where. It's boring as hell.

Having powerful healers makes battles longer and more strategic. You have to account for something instead of just alpha striking everything.

Giving tanks better methods of controlling the battlefield would actually be the answer to healers. Not nerfing healers. A tank in your face that can actually hinder your ability to heal is a great way to solve the issue. In current mmos tanks are pretty much ingnorable in pvp.

their is much more depth in 8 dps fighting than sticking around a broken healer.

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