Two mana bars instead of one!

Since I like hearing people's opions just for the sake of it, I will toss something wild into the mix, untested and unheard of, could be a complete disaster or success:

personal mana bar only: for solo players
personal + party mana bar: for parties

For parties:

in a party, AoE spells draw from the party mana, if someone excessively spams AoE then party mana would deplete for the entire party
party mana bar would regenerate based on the members regeneration, fill your personal bar and then fill the party bar, people would prefer to strategically use AoE
If the party mana pool bar is empty, you could still use AoE. However, casting AoE again would draw mana from your personal mana with an additional cost of 50%. If the party bar has 50 mana and the spell costs 100, then you would consume those last 50 mana and 75 mana from your personal bar (50 * (50 * 1.50))
single-target spells would initially draw mana from your individual mana bar. When your personal mana is empty, the next single-target spell would draw mana from the party mana instead (if you have your own mana in the party bar), with no additional cost
how much mana would be taken from your personal bar and stored in to the party mana pool would depend on the AoE spells you have, if you only have AoE then all your mana would go to the party mana bar
if you only have single target spells then you wouldn't share anything with the party

Very wild!

Why do something like this:

it is party and zergging mechanic
counters mind numbing AoE spam
people would have to play stategically and consider your options better
organized parties would survive more, disorganized parties would burn the mana as a group and then implode
on first contact there would be a bang of AoE and then people would jump on individual targets

I'm simply throwing this onto the table, I am curious to see people's beliefs and what they feel about this, I don't think this exists afaik. I am intrigued, I mean you want group effects and is not willing to commit the mana for the group?

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Raven016

What happens with the party mana bar if the players split dynamically in two and go somewhat out of range from each other?

Arya_Yeshe

Raven016 wrote: »

What happens with the party mana bar if the players split dynamically in two and go somewhat out of range from each other?

Split would recalculate the bar, the party bar is just a mirrage, do you see?
If my character has 1000 mana and I have some AoE spells that syphon 500 mana to the party mana... once I move to another party then they will have my 500 mana there and the previous party would not have it anymore.

I believe that unconsciouss, dead, out of range people should take back then mana that belongs to them from the party bar, since they could be over there trying to fight for their lives against someone. Also, if they died with some mana, this shouldn't be available for the party anymore.

Raven016

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

Raven016 wrote: »

What happens with the party mana bar if the players split dynamically in two and go somewhat out of range from each other?

Split would recalculate the bar, the party bar is just a mirrage, do you see?
If my character has 1000 mana and I have some AoE spells that syphon 500 mana to the party mana... once I move to another party then they will have my 500 mana there and the previous party would not have it anymore.

I believe that unconsciouss, dead, out of range people should take back then mana that belongs to them from the party bar, since they could be over there trying to fight for their lives against someone. Also, if they died with some mana, this shouldn't be available for the party anymore.

We have parties of 8 players and raids of 40 players.
My question was what happens if the 40 players stay in the raid but split on the map, traveling in different directions and meeting again later.
You want each player to see a 2nd mana pool bigger or smaller depending on how many players are around or how many players are in the raid?

Arya_Yeshe

Raven016 wrote: »

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

Raven016 wrote: »

What happens with the party mana bar if the players split dynamically in two and go somewhat out of range from each other?

Split would recalculate the bar, the party bar is just a mirrage, do you see?
If my character has 1000 mana and I have some AoE spells that syphon 500 mana to the party mana... once I move to another party then they will have my 500 mana there and the previous party would not have it anymore.

I believe that unconsciouss, dead, out of range people should take back then mana that belongs to them from the party bar, since they could be over there trying to fight for their lives against someone. Also, if they died with some mana, this shouldn't be available for the party anymore.

We have parties of 8 players and raids of 40 players.
My question was what happens if the 40 players stay in the raid but split on the map, traveling in different directions and meeting again later.
You want each player to see a 2nd mana pool bigger or smaller depending on how many players are around or how many players are in the raid?

Adaptive bar: It would depend completely on how AoC manages party range, probably they already have something on this, so if the group splits then only the people in range of that particular active party bar will share the mana with that bar. In regard of party members in range: if two active bars get in range of each other then they merge. In case you wander off by yourself as a solo guy doing stuff, it would create a bar for you, 50% penalty still applies otherwise people will cheese it by moving away and spamming AoE and then comming back
Static bar: There's squads, everybody in the group could join the same squad if they want, the squad will share the bar at all times regardless the range (the programmers would probably prefer this option, less challenging). This is a fantastic option for squads of healers only, they will secure mana for the so important healing

There is also this: how do you know how much of your mana is in the party bar? Well, the full bar could have 100.000 mp and you contributed with 4.000 mp. If you leave the party when the bar is at 63.000 mp then you would get back to your personal bar only:
X=(63000*500)/100000= 3150 mp

Just stick with the simplest possible math and only calculate it when something relevant happens, like a member is not active anymore (leaves or dies) and in the option of Adaptive bar then it would include the bar recalculation in group split and merge

Arya_Yeshe

Strange feeling, I threw the idea around just to hear what people feel about this and I am falling in love for the idea, because it fits the vision of sharing group risks and not punishing people on the individual and small groups levels

A large disorganized group would just burn all their mana with the 50% penalty and then crumble

In the case of Static mana bar, a squad of healers would greatly increase the value of competent healers, in all games I played very few people wanted to be the healer. Also, having a shared bar would greatly increase the value of consumables for mana regeneration, people would even share their potions with others just to make sure that bar is filled

There's some social gains in this

Depraved

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

Since I like hearing people's opions just for the sake of it, I will toss something wild into the mix, untested and unheard of, could be a complete disaster or success:
personal mana bar only: for solo players

personal + party mana bar: for parties

For parties:
in a party, AoE spells draw from the party mana, if someone excessively spams AoE then party mana would deplete for the entire party

party mana bar would regenerate based on the members regeneration, fill your personal bar and then fill the party bar, people would prefer to strategically use AoE

If the party mana pool bar is empty, you could still use AoE. However, casting AoE again would draw mana from your personal mana with an additional cost of 50%. If the party bar has 50 mana and the spell costs 100, then you would consume those last 50 mana and 75 mana from your personal bar (50 * (50 * 1.50))

single-target spells would initially draw mana from your individual mana bar. When your personal mana is empty, the next single-target spell would draw mana from the party mana instead (if you have your own mana in the party bar), with no additional cost

how much mana would be taken from your personal bar and stored in to the party mana pool would depend on the AoE spells you have, if you only have AoE then all your mana would go to the party mana bar

if you only have single target spells then you wouldn't share anything with the party

Very wild!

Why do something like this:
it is party and zergging mechanic

counters mind numbing AoE spam

people would have to play stategically and consider your options better

organized parties would survive more, disorganized parties would burn the mana as a group and then implode

on first contact there would be a bang of AoE and then people would jump on individual targets

I'm simply throwing this onto the table, I am curious to see people's beliefs and what they feel about this, I don't think this exists afaik. I am intrigued, I mean you want group effects and is not willing to commit the mana for the group?

whatt?now you get more mana and more spam o-o

Korela

Very good for multiboxing

Arya_Yeshe

Korela wrote: »

Very good for multiboxing

It is, until you deplete the party mana and start burnning 50% more mana

Arya_Yeshe

Depraved wrote: »

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

Since I like hearing people's opions just for the sake of it, I will toss something wild into the mix, untested and unheard of, could be a complete disaster or success:
personal mana bar only: for solo players

personal + party mana bar: for parties

For parties:
in a party, AoE spells draw from the party mana, if someone excessively spams AoE then party mana would deplete for the entire party

party mana bar would regenerate based on the members regeneration, fill your personal bar and then fill the party bar, people would prefer to strategically use AoE

If the party mana pool bar is empty, you could still use AoE. However, casting AoE again would draw mana from your personal mana with an additional cost of 50%. If the party bar has 50 mana and the spell costs 100, then you would consume those last 50 mana and 75 mana from your personal bar (50 * (50 * 1.50))

single-target spells would initially draw mana from your individual mana bar. When your personal mana is empty, the next single-target spell would draw mana from the party mana instead (if you have your own mana in the party bar), with no additional cost

how much mana would be taken from your personal bar and stored in to the party mana pool would depend on the AoE spells you have, if you only have AoE then all your mana would go to the party mana bar

if you only have single target spells then you wouldn't share anything with the party

Very wild!

Why do something like this:
it is party and zergging mechanic

counters mind numbing AoE spam

people would have to play stategically and consider your options better

organized parties would survive more, disorganized parties would burn the mana as a group and then implode

on first contact there would be a bang of AoE and then people would jump on individual targets

I'm simply throwing this onto the table, I am curious to see people's beliefs and what they feel about this, I don't think this exists afaik. I am intrigued, I mean you want group effects and is not willing to commit the mana for the group?

whatt?now you get more mana and more spam o-o

There is less mana now, after the party spent the party mana in AoEs then you will start burnning mana 50% faster if you cast more AoE

Ludullu

If mages will be the mana batteries, then they'll definitely have a ton of mana and mana regen (if healer or bard is the battery - replace what I'm about to say with them). So you can just have an aoe-tuned mage who's built into crazy mana pool and mana regen, so pretty much all of his mana is in the party pool, it's a ton of mana and it's regening fast as fuck for everyone.

Then you fill up your party with single-target classes tuned for high mana high dmg abilities. Give them a single aoe augment (if they somehow don't have an aoe at all) and just let those fuckers use up the party mana with their solo skills, while it all gets regened at way higher speeds than their own.

So, unless we go with the crazy scaling aoes from another thread - solo snipers would use this strat to simply annihilate players in super quick succession.

Oh, and just to be clear here - I don't really like this

Cause I feel like this might've been read in a positive light.

Taaku

I personally really like this idea. I don't think this idea really works well with what other mechanics AoC has going on however. I would like to see it in another game sometime though that is more built around this idea though.

Raven016

Maybe the 2nd bar / 2nd type of mana should exist always, also for solo players, dedicated for AoE spells.
But when players team up, the 2nd bar would merge and become a common mana pool, with advantages and disadvantages.
Or when the 2nd mana pool is created, the private mana pool would become smaller, and the total amount of mana would be the same.
The advantage would be to allow more powerful but less frequent spells. One would be the main caster, selecting the target area and trigger the cast, the others would assist to protect or extend range by positioning themselves properly on the battlefield.

It is just a step away from:
Up to eight players of the same primary archetype can band together to create monumental effects during a siege.[3]

Depraved

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

Since I like hearing people's opions just for the sake of it, I will toss something wild into the mix, untested and unheard of, could be a complete disaster or success:
personal mana bar only: for solo players

personal + party mana bar: for parties

For parties:
in a party, AoE spells draw from the party mana, if someone excessively spams AoE then party mana would deplete for the entire party

party mana bar would regenerate based on the members regeneration, fill your personal bar and then fill the party bar, people would prefer to strategically use AoE

If the party mana pool bar is empty, you could still use AoE. However, casting AoE again would draw mana from your personal mana with an additional cost of 50%. If the party bar has 50 mana and the spell costs 100, then you would consume those last 50 mana and 75 mana from your personal bar (50 * (50 * 1.50))

single-target spells would initially draw mana from your individual mana bar. When your personal mana is empty, the next single-target spell would draw mana from the party mana instead (if you have your own mana in the party bar), with no additional cost

how much mana would be taken from your personal bar and stored in to the party mana pool would depend on the AoE spells you have, if you only have AoE then all your mana would go to the party mana bar

if you only have single target spells then you wouldn't share anything with the party

Very wild!

Why do something like this:
it is party and zergging mechanic

counters mind numbing AoE spam

people would have to play stategically and consider your options better

organized parties would survive more, disorganized parties would burn the mana as a group and then implode

on first contact there would be a bang of AoE and then people would jump on individual targets

I'm simply throwing this onto the table, I am curious to see people's beliefs and what they feel about this, I don't think this exists afaik. I am intrigued, I mean you want group effects and is not willing to commit the mana for the group?

whatt?now you get more mana and more spam o-o

There is less mana now, after the party spent the party mana in AoEs then you will start burnning mana 50% faster if you cast more AoE

you said that the regen will be based on the members regen. if i understood correctly, this extra bar will have higher regen since it will be based on the individual members regen combined?

also, if there is less mana, then this is less anti zerg, because you cant cast as often. the zerg will have more members and parties casting aoe than you.

Arya_Yeshe

NiKr wrote: »

If mages will be the mana batteries, then they'll definitely have a ton of mana and mana regen (if healer or bard is the battery - replace what I'm about to say with them). So you can just have an aoe-tuned mage who's built into crazy mana pool and mana regen, so pretty much all of his mana is in the party pool, it's a ton of mana and it's regening fast as fuck for everyone.

Then you fill up your party with single-target classes tuned for high mana high dmg abilities. Give them a single aoe augment (if they somehow don't have an aoe at all) and just let those fuckers use up the party mana with their solo skills, while it all gets regened at way higher speeds than their own.

So, unless we go with the crazy scaling aoes from another thread - solo snipers would use this strat to simply annihilate players in super quick succession.

Oh, and just to be clear here - I don't really like this Cause I feel like this might've been read in a positive light.

It is all a trade off, so such batteries would have much less hp, much less damage and would do nothing at all?
Well, if it is a group strategy it is valid, still an AoE span would deplete the party mana

People specialized in single target spells are not toxic to the gameplay, they are fine

Arya_Yeshe

Depraved wrote: »

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

Since I like hearing people's opions just for the sake of it, I will toss something wild into the mix, untested and unheard of, could be a complete disaster or success:
personal mana bar only: for solo players

personal + party mana bar: for parties

For parties:
in a party, AoE spells draw from the party mana, if someone excessively spams AoE then party mana would deplete for the entire party

party mana bar would regenerate based on the members regeneration, fill your personal bar and then fill the party bar, people would prefer to strategically use AoE

If the party mana pool bar is empty, you could still use AoE. However, casting AoE again would draw mana from your personal mana with an additional cost of 50%. If the party bar has 50 mana and the spell costs 100, then you would consume those last 50 mana and 75 mana from your personal bar (50 * (50 * 1.50))

single-target spells would initially draw mana from your individual mana bar. When your personal mana is empty, the next single-target spell would draw mana from the party mana instead (if you have your own mana in the party bar), with no additional cost

how much mana would be taken from your personal bar and stored in to the party mana pool would depend on the AoE spells you have, if you only have AoE then all your mana would go to the party mana bar

if you only have single target spells then you wouldn't share anything with the party

Very wild!

Why do something like this:
it is party and zergging mechanic

counters mind numbing AoE spam

people would have to play stategically and consider your options better

organized parties would survive more, disorganized parties would burn the mana as a group and then implode

on first contact there would be a bang of AoE and then people would jump on individual targets

I'm simply throwing this onto the table, I am curious to see people's beliefs and what they feel about this, I don't think this exists afaik. I am intrigued, I mean you want group effects and is not willing to commit the mana for the group?

whatt?now you get more mana and more spam o-o

There is less mana now, after the party spent the party mana in AoEs then you will start burnning mana 50% faster if you cast more AoE

you said that the regen will be based on the members regen. if i understood correctly, this extra bar will have higher regen since it will be based on the individual members regen combined?

also, if there is less mana, then this is less anti zerg, because you cant cast as often. the zerg will have more members and parties casting aoe than you.

The bar is a mirage, mana will regen on the same amount as solo players, the mana will just be summed up in the party mana bar. However, this opens the opportunity for an agreement between party members about letting strongest mages use the mana while the others use their staffs and other resources. It's a group effort

The great different is that if you can link people in a mana pool and take this mana from AoE spells then they would end up burnning 50% more mana if they insist spamming. They would have to be smart about how to manage their mana and use the AoC strategically

If such group had a couple mages used as batteries, only adding mana while trying to use mostly single target spells, than that's fine

If the group decides to nuke the other party by everybody using their AoE, they will still be able to do it, but the party mana will be gone and so their individual mana will burn 50% faster. The defenders will do what they can to survive and counter the attackers who will have almost no mana

Arya_Yeshe

Raven016 wrote: »

Maybe the 2nd bar / 2nd type of mana should exist always, also for solo players, dedicated for AoE spells.
But when players team up, the 2nd bar would merge and become a common mana pool, with advantages and disadvantages.
Or when the 2nd mana pool is created, the private mana pool would become smaller, and the total amount of mana would be the same.

If people are a a party and want all the benefits of being in the party then they should contribute to something and should have a drawback in AoE spam/zergging. People come together and share the benefits and the risks, be punished as a group for their lack of coordination and leadership

However, solo players do not have party benefits like boosts and heals, so it's a trade off... they keep solo and share nothing while not receiving any benefit for being in a party So, such second mana bar for AoE would punish people individually, which I would pass and I don't think it has the vision for AoC

Raven016 wrote: »

The advantage would be to allow more powerful but less frequent spells. One would be the main caster, selecting the target area and trigger the cast, the others would assist to protect or extend range by positioning themselves properly on the battlefield.

Absolutely, a very good mage would be of high value to the party and he would be calling the shots

Raven016 wrote: »

It is just a step away from:
Up to eight players of the same primary archetype can band together to create monumental effects during a siege.[3]

Yes, it vibes with the idea of siege summons, where people put together their strengh and their actions

Voxtrium

I don't believe it would work well. First with alts being built purely for their mana regen then parked on the edge of a raid. Second in reality single target abilities that utilize significant amounts of mana would be over utilized. The entire point of those abilities is that they are like the grand finale show.... except if the mana pool is 40 players large then they can cast those show ending capabilities waaay more and if you want actual class identity then those show stopping abilities should have awesome kill potential or other affects.... so it would be terrible to have any built in capability for them to be spammed.

Ludullu

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

People specialized in single target spells are not toxic to the gameplay, they are fine

After seeing today's gameplay do you still think so? Cause even disregarding the absence of balance in the current build, the solo burst from even just the few skills we saw was pretty high. Now imagine that shit from a full group, who are all specked into solo burst and don't need to care too much for mana.

Either way, I feel like this system would be a bit too complex for majority of people and simply too convoluted for others.

Enigmatic Sage

It's an interesting idea but essentially not necessary.

Depraved

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

Since I like hearing people's opions just for the sake of it, I will toss something wild into the mix, untested and unheard of, could be a complete disaster or success:
personal mana bar only: for solo players

personal + party mana bar: for parties

For parties:
in a party, AoE spells draw from the party mana, if someone excessively spams AoE then party mana would deplete for the entire party

party mana bar would regenerate based on the members regeneration, fill your personal bar and then fill the party bar, people would prefer to strategically use AoE

If the party mana pool bar is empty, you could still use AoE. However, casting AoE again would draw mana from your personal mana with an additional cost of 50%. If the party bar has 50 mana and the spell costs 100, then you would consume those last 50 mana and 75 mana from your personal bar (50 * (50 * 1.50))

single-target spells would initially draw mana from your individual mana bar. When your personal mana is empty, the next single-target spell would draw mana from the party mana instead (if you have your own mana in the party bar), with no additional cost

how much mana would be taken from your personal bar and stored in to the party mana pool would depend on the AoE spells you have, if you only have AoE then all your mana would go to the party mana bar

if you only have single target spells then you wouldn't share anything with the party

Very wild!

Why do something like this:
it is party and zergging mechanic

counters mind numbing AoE spam

people would have to play stategically and consider your options better

organized parties would survive more, disorganized parties would burn the mana as a group and then implode

on first contact there would be a bang of AoE and then people would jump on individual targets

I'm simply throwing this onto the table, I am curious to see people's beliefs and what they feel about this, I don't think this exists afaik. I am intrigued, I mean you want group effects and is not willing to commit the mana for the group?

whatt?now you get more mana and more spam o-o

There is less mana now, after the party spent the party mana in AoEs then you will start burnning mana 50% faster if you cast more AoE

you said that the regen will be based on the members regen. if i understood correctly, this extra bar will have higher regen since it will be based on the individual members regen combined?

also, if there is less mana, then this is less anti zerg, because you cant cast as often. the zerg will have more members and parties casting aoe than you.

The bar is a mirage, mana will regen on the same amount as solo players, the mana will just be summed up in the party mana bar. However, this opens the opportunity for an agreement between party members about letting strongest mages use the mana while the others use their staffs and other resources. It's a group effort

The great different is that if you can link people in a mana pool and take this mana from AoE spells then they would end up burnning 50% more mana if they insist spamming. They would have to be smart about how to manage their mana and use the AoC strategically

If such group had a couple mages used as batteries, only adding mana while trying to use mostly single target spells, than that's fine

If the group decides to nuke the other party by everybody using their AoE, they will still be able to do it, but the party mana will be gone and so their individual mana will burn 50% faster. The defenders will do what they can to survive and counter the attackers who will have almost no mana

if i have 200 mana and i regen 20 mana per second and you have 100 mana and u regen 5 mana per second, how much mana our bar should have and how much should it regen per second?

thats what i mean. if we just add everything, now we both have an extra 300 mana that regens at 25 mana per second. i get a bit more, but you basically have infinite mana.

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