Asmongold's Video

Yesterday, Asmongold posted this video, reacting to Lazy Peon's video:

https://youtu.be/Dh9dqPRKCd0?si=PaHGft2BAiF5_MPj

Overall, I agree with most of what Zach had to say about Ashes of creation - except for one critically important thing.

Zach puts fourth an opinion that players should be forced to play in game modes they don't want to (nor enjoy) because its better for the game when people experience all of it.

I can't say, strongly enough, how much I disagree with this sentiment. Zach is obviously entitled to his own opinions, but I felt compelled to come here and state this. (in hopes the community managers will bubble the sentiment up)

I think, at all times, the strength of Ashes will come from people being able to play however they want, and never be forced into game play they don't want to participate in.

Some people will only ever do crafting, fishing, gathering, PVP, etc. Some may only ever play the economic side of AoC, and at no point should anyone have to go do other content in order to fully enjoy the game as they see fit.

I could go on and on, but I'll just leave this statement as is; desiring only to offer a counter voice to one as prominent in the gaming community, as Asmongold's tends to be.

Thanks for reading.

-=TGB

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Comments

Ludullu

He doesn't know what he wants. Literally a few minutes before he says that, he also says "people should be able to just be crafters in the game". Always take his takes with 3.5 bags of salt.

Sathrago

Well, you are going to encounter pvp in almost all aspects of ashes of creation, so in a sense you are participating in something other than gathering, pve, crafting etc when you start playing ashes. And thats a good thing for the game. Its not about forcing people to engage with content they dont like, but giving them more options to branch out to via their preferred content, that overlaps with other content. So deep-sea fishing for instance, its gathering in a pvp zone where corruption cant happen. I dont know what your thoughts are on this, but I doubt it mattered to you until I mentioned it. Does that make sense?

Sathrago

NiKr wrote: »

He doesn't know what he wants. Literally a few minutes before he says that he also says "people should be able to just be crafters in the game". Always take his takes with 3.5 bags of salt.

haha yeah thats true. though he would probably say that his intention was, similar to there being a ranger and a fighter, there is a class called Woodcutter or Leatherworker. So basically non-combatant players that can be pvped, can technically go to pve, but their entire kit revolves around their professions instead of being adventurers. I think you could add pve tools they could bring that would add to pve/pvp but thats a whole other design avenue that I dont think games are ready for just yet.

Liniker

you will be forced to PvP in ashes even if you dont want to, theres alway on non-consensual pvp in the whole map so.. yea

AnimusRex

Liniker wrote: »

you will be forced to PvP in ashes even if you dont want to, theres alway on non-consensual pvp in the whole map so.. yea

I think you're correct, and people have had fair warning.

While El Stevo has pushed the 'this game will have something for everyone' mantra (and I don't think he's wrong), the perhaps more pertinent one is that to be entirely successful, you're going to possibly be doing some stuff that's not entirely your flavour.

Enigmatic Sage

It's a game designed around building nodes up via economics and empires through vassal networks. If you keep ganking your fellow node citizens or ally nodes, you're essentially making the game worse for yourself. Reputation matters and immoral actions have repercussions.

Just find like minded individuals, guilds and nodes to suit your playstyle to reduce the undesirable gameplay one doesn't want to experience to a minimum.

Rhinehold

Great points; allow me some clarification. With exceptions to things like PVP, because its a PVP game - I mean that, as an example, I shouldn't have to go kill the end boss of a dungeon to get the part I need to level up my crafting. (that has a 1% drop rate, and I can only kill the boss once a week - i'm reasonably okay with this if its a guaranteed drop)

I shouldn't need to get an Arena rank of 2000 in order to get the best fishing pole.

I shouldn't need to kill 3 specific world bosses to level up my refinement stations.

I shouldn't need to win 10 sieges to make the highest level pick axe for mining.

These are overly simplistic, extreme, examples, but they highlight the point that, if someone wants to just focus on the economy(buying and selling), manage a metropolis, build a refinement outpost on their freehold, sit in town as a Grand Master crafter, sit on the dock of the bay fishing, do nothing but PVP all day - all of these should be viable without needing to expend grand efforts in other game elements.

Again, all my opinion and desire. ;-)

Enigmatic Sage

@The_Gaming_Butler it's not a PvP game, it's PvX. A majority of the games core is based around PvE with PvP being the volatility. It's a cross of the two. The flagging system allows opportunity but things have repercussions outside of the opt-in PvP events like caravans and sieges(which are relatively gated). The ocean biome is its own Free for all thing that is an extension of the lands systems.

You can choose to play the game more PvP heavy and that's up to the player, guild wars and opt-in events.

Enigmatic Sage

@The_Gaming_Butler think of it this way in a macro perspective.

There is only 5 level 6 nodes (metro's) allowed simultaneously across the current map of Verra. How those vassals are divided can change based on where they are and the current level of other nodes nearby.

You cant siege or go to war with allied vassals in the same vassal network. This means you want to work against the other 4 networks potentially meaning you want to attack their caravans, siege their nodes, go to war with their nodes, their guilds etc.

There will probably be a lot more PvP intensity along the borders of the various metro network's depending on politics etc. until empires grow, diminish or change leaderships.

On a micro level, sure you can attack players indiscriminately in the open world, but as I said, your immoral actions could come with repercussions. I'm sure there will be some intermittent chaos over the transitional leaderships and random raiding parties lol.

A nodes reputation including yours will be very important regardless of who the parent node is.

Rhinehold

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

it's not a PvP game, it's PvX. A majority of the games core is based around PvE with PvP being the volatility.

Understood. I appreciate your perspective.

The spirit of my post had little to do with PVP. I added that comment because others were pointing out that on some level, that will be a forced participation for most players.

The spirit of the post is around a game design philosophy that Asmongold posited as "good" - referencing forced player interactions with game modes/elements that they didn't want to play. My position is the opposite; that if someone wants to log in every day and hammer away making swords, then log off - I feel thats a great way to offer a good experience to a wide array of players.

Conversely, referencing my previous examples - I'd prefer to not see people forced to (as an example) go raiding every week to get a widget thats necessary to rank up their crafting skills.

Enigmatic Sage

The_Gaming_Butler wrote: »

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

it's not a PvP game, it's PvX. A majority of the games core is based around PvE with PvP being the volatility.

Understood. I appreciate your perspective.

The spirit of my post had little to do with PVP. I added that comment because others were pointing out that on some level, that will be a forced participation for most players.

The spirit of the post is around a game design philosophy that Asmongold posited as "good" - referencing forced player interactions with game modes/elements that they didn't want to play. My position is the opposite; that if someone wants to log in every day and hammer away making swords, then log off - I feel thats a great way to offer a good experience to a wide array of players.

Conversely, referencing my previous examples - I'd prefer to not see people forced to (as an example) go raiding every week to get a widget thats necessary to rank up their crafting skills.

haha, no worries. Figured I would put it out there. I've noticed a lot of people focused around the micro parts of the game vs the macro side in perspective bias.

I agree.
If you want to log on and make swords all day because that's what you want to do, then go for it. Nothing is truly forced. PvX allows you to level and play the game your way to some degree.

Depraved

The_Gaming_Butler wrote: »

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

it's not a PvP game, it's PvX. A majority of the games core is based around PvE with PvP being the volatility.

Understood. I appreciate your perspective.

The spirit of my post had little to do with PVP. I added that comment because others were pointing out that on some level, that will be a forced participation for most players.

The spirit of the post is around a game design philosophy that Asmongold posited as "good" - referencing forced player interactions with game modes/elements that they didn't want to play. My position is the opposite; that if someone wants to log in every day and hammer away making swords, then log off - I feel thats a great way to offer a good experience to a wide array of players.

Conversely, referencing my previous examples - I'd prefer to not see people forced to (as an example) go raiding every week to get a widget thats necessary to rank up their crafting skills.

u can still do that. log in, hammer a few things then log off.

Kilion

I don't even know why his takes matter to so many people. To be honest I think his opinions are less important than that of people who aren't influencers. The main reason for that IMO is that he has a conflict of interest: A game that is enjoyable is not necesarily a game that is fun to watch. However his income and fanbase depends on playing games that are fun to watch and as a consequence for that his takes have a risk of being "biased" towards a more watchable game rather than a game that is enjoyable to play; because he might be a gamer, but being a streamer brings home the bacon.

And sure, I can be wrong about this and this is a complete matter of nerd satisfaction for him and if Ashes ends up being being not a good game to play on stream he might just play it after he finishes his stream, but I doubt that.

I also remember him saying that players in MMOs shouldn't have agency over the gaming experience of other players in that game which sounds like it defeats the purpose of playing an MMO in the first place. And maybe he was oversimplifying what he meant or there is some context missing but this just doesn't strike me as the mindset of someone wanting to play an MMORPG where people "make" the game.

nanfoodle

Asmongold request things that would break the overall design of Ashes. Like having a PvE server. I think he has no real clue and just making videos to get clicks. I have long stopped watching anything he makes.

Ludullu

Kilion wrote: »

I also remember him saying that players in MMOs shouldn't have agency over the gaming experience of other players in that game which sounds like it defeats the purpose of playing an MMO in the first place. And maybe he was oversimplifying what he meant or there is some context missing but this just doesn't strike me as the mindset of someone wanting to play an MMORPG where people "make" the game.

That wasn't out of context. He's just a super casual with wow-brain who hates any form of even the slightest inconvenience. He's part of the "soloable mmos" problem.

I like to watch him to get that precise opinion and see his chat's reaction to those takes. Obviously the chat is mostly on his side, cause that's how twitch works, but when he has a particularly hot take majority of chat still disagrees, so it's a nice check for the player limits.

Arya_Yeshe

Asmon contradicts himself for quite some time, when he was playing Diablo he complained for days about having pvp while he just wanted to play pve, he kept asking for an option to disable pvp

Now he says people should be forced into playing what they dont want
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AnimusRex

Kilion wrote: »

I don't even know why his takes matter to so many people.

I've literally never watched him and have no desire/need to. I enjoyed games long before Content Creation was a thing. They may or may not be seen as necessary and useful now, but I'm going to TRY to really exclude them from my AoC experience. Will probably cost me at some point but I love my discovery in games too much.

Sathrago

come on guys, lets not try to gaslight ourselves into thinking that asmongold has no actual impact on games he talks about/plays. He's able to talk to the developers, get interviews, access to betas, etc.

Will it completely change the direction of a game? probably not, it depends on the ego behind the design. We should be fine with ashes and Steven when it comes to moving true, but they have literally premade an asmongold character in the character creator to troll him. During the latest livestream Steven was watching asmongold's stream for his and the chats reaction for feedback.

I believe Steven will be able to sort out the good and bad ideas with his team, as so far I have not really seen evidence of bad decisions.

bigepeen

Asmon is correct here. It's better for the overall health of the game to have players that enjoy it for its PvX nature, and not sequester themselves into only PvE, which creates a watered down open world and risk-free game.

If you build a good game, people will come. Maybe it won't be the typical dwindling MMO playerbase, but it will draw a ton of players from other genres. As Steven said, you have to take risks, and that's what it will take for MMOs to grow again.

TheDarkSorcerer

NiKr wrote: »

He doesn't know what he wants. Literally a few minutes before he says that he also says "people should be able to just be crafters in the game". Always take his takes with 3.5 bags of salt.

I enjoy his videos. But I will never understand how people just eats up whatever he say like he's the spokesperson for what games should be like. But I am happy that he, along with influencers like LazyPeon is showing excitement for AoC and supports the development, because influencers thoughts on a product has great impact on sales depending on audience size. Cancel culture is still a thing.

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