Warning from my previous experiences facing healers balanced around PvE.

simply put; they end up mandatory. a grp with a healer cannot lose in pvp againt a grp with out one.
i'm active on new world and the current meta is anti heal proc on everything.
it was true in dark age of camelot 20 years ago and it's still an issue today.

love you, cant wait for the alpha.

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Cyridius

I find it very hard to believe that where there's only one healer archetype in the game that there wont be self-sustain skills available to every other class. If doing content relies on a Cleric in every party there is a genuine issue with class design in this game - the class fantasy matters. Not everyone who would be a healer wants to be a Cleric, for example. So we're already excluding a number of people from taking on that role by pigeonholing it into being this one thing.

So if we're creating a hard bottleneck on people capable of engaging in content - including PvP - by forcing them to incorporate someone of a particular class then there's going to simply be a problem of not enough people playing that class. You can look at every single established MMO to see this problem - DPS is massively overrepresented because people don't want the responsibility attached with tanking or healing. On the tank side it will be less of an issue in a game like AoC I believe but healing will still be both very necessary and unappealing to the overwhelming majority of players. So we either massively incentivise people to create healers or make it so healers aren't all that mandatory and are instead designed to be a DPS boost through allowing people to focus their abilities on damage and avoid using their time for self-sustain. In all scenarios the healer should still be designed as a damage dealer so that their contribution can continue independently of whether or not their team mates suck/take damage that needs to be healed.

It is also an issue if one single healer has the power to keep eight people alive. That ability to heal seven other people, plus themselves, is something that scales inversely with the fewer players you have. If you have enough healing to keep eight people up, you're going to have more than enough for four, two, or just yourself in PvP - you can end up with a New World situation where someone with a Life Staff and Ice Gauntlet class combo could stand still in their own AoEs and heal themselves without moving and just indefinitely tank a party of players wailing on them.

This is all before mentioning consumables. I don't think anyone wants the game to be a potion chugging contest of who can drink the most.

None of this is just a balance discussion without seeing things in action, it is a question of design philosophy.

Effah

people have an agenda, they want their little discord squad to stomp people just because they pick the holy triangle.

Depraved

Cyridius wrote: »

I find it very hard to believe that where there's only one healer archetype in the game that there wont be self-sustain skills available to every other class. If doing content relies on a Cleric in every party there is a genuine issue with class design in this game - the class fantasy matters. Not everyone who would be a healer wants to be a Cleric, for example. So we're already excluding a number of people from taking on that role by pigeonholing it into being this one thing.

why do you find that hard to believe? its not the first time this has been done successfully.
also, regarding class fantasy, you will always leave people left out...do you think you can incorporate every single possible combination that there is? no you cant! the only way you could do that is if you just create a pool of skills then players dont have classes or archetypes and select a number of skills for their character then name it lol which is not the direction ashes is going.

Cyridius

Depraved wrote: »

why do you find that hard to believe? its not the first time this has been done successfully.
also, regarding class fantasy, you will always leave people left out...do you think you can incorporate every single possible combination that there is? no you cant! the only way you could do that is if you just create a pool of skills then players dont have classes or archetypes and select a number of skills for their character then name it lol which is not the direction ashes is going.

I find it hard to believe because it would be poor game design. Remove inherent self-sustain from non-healer classes then what you're left with is chronic potion chugging or players simply sitting around twiddling their thumbs unable to play the game unless a Cleric graces them with their presence. The former is not enjoyable gameplay and the latter is just engineered social toxicity and a miserable experience for the vast majority of players.

With regards to class fantasy, sure I can't disagree that people will always feel left out. But it can be mitigated.

Depraved

Cyridius wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

why do you find that hard to believe? its not the first time this has been done successfully.
also, regarding class fantasy, you will always leave people left out...do you think you can incorporate every single possible combination that there is? no you cant! the only way you could do that is if you just create a pool of skills then players dont have classes or archetypes and select a number of skills for their character then name it lol which is not the direction ashes is going.

I find it hard to believe because it would be poor game design. Remove inherent self-sustain from non-healer classes then what you're left with is chronic potion chugging or players simply sitting around twiddling their thumbs unable to play the game unless a Cleric graces them with their presence. The former is not enjoyable gameplay and the latter is just engineered social toxicity and a miserable experience for the vast majority of players.

With regards to class fantasy, sure I can't disagree that people will always feel left out. But it can be mitigated.

how would that be poor game design? so if every class cant heal, support, tank and dps, it is poor game design? pls

Noaani

It really shouldn't be an issue at all. Ever.

If you are forming a pickup group - in part or in full - have a healer.

If you are grouping with friends, make sure one of your friends is a healer. If none of your friends are healers, be a healer.

Now, some people may say that they prefer the gameplay of a tank or DPS. To these people my only comment is - if you are spending time in an MMO with your friends, and being a healer instead of another class is going to mean you don't enjoy your time, get better friends.

Effah

Noaani wrote: »

It really shouldn't be an issue at all. Ever.

If you are forming a pickup group - in part or in full - have a healer.

If you are grouping with friends, make sure one of your friends is a healer. If none of your friends are healers, be a healer.

Now, some people may say that they prefer the gameplay of a tank or DPS. To these people my only comment is - if you are spending time in an MMO with your friends, and being a healer instead of another class is going to mean you don't enjoy your time, get better friends.

how is that remotely fun ? also why do need to have friends to be able to compete ?

Thokan

P0GG0 wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

It really shouldn't be an issue at all. Ever.

If you are forming a pickup group - in part or in full - have a healer.

If you are grouping with friends, make sure one of your friends is a healer. If none of your friends are healers, be a healer.

Now, some people may say that they prefer the gameplay of a tank or DPS. To these people my only comment is - if you are spending time in an MMO with your friends, and being a healer instead of another class is going to mean you don't enjoy your time, get better friends.

how is that remotely fun ? also why do need to have friends to be able to compete ?

Because its not a singleplayer.

Effah

Thokan wrote: »

P0GG0 wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

It really shouldn't be an issue at all. Ever.

If you are forming a pickup group - in part or in full - have a healer.

If you are grouping with friends, make sure one of your friends is a healer. If none of your friends are healers, be a healer.

Now, some people may say that they prefer the gameplay of a tank or DPS. To these people my only comment is - if you are spending time in an MMO with your friends, and being a healer instead of another class is going to mean you don't enjoy your time, get better friends.

how is that remotely fun ? also why do need to have friends to be able to compete ?

Because its not a singleplayer.

Do you realise the amount of people that dont like to take part in this guild thing ? why would you get a ridiculous advantage just for being that extravert gene pool ?

Ludullu

P0GG0 wrote: »

Do you realise the amount of people that dont like to take part in this guild thing ? why would you get a ridiculous advantage just for being that extravert gene pool ?

And literally all of those people can go play a NON-MULTIPLAYER game.

Also, I've been a shut-in introvert my whole life, but I've also being in guilds as a member and as a leader. You don't have to be an extravert to do that.

Effah

i feel sorry for you. at least you got the better loots, congratz.

Ludullu

P0GG0 wrote: »

i feel sorry for you. at least you got the better loots, congratz.

I got the better game and life experience. I woulda been much worse off if I hadn't learned how to socialize with people through playing a game that forced me to party/guild up.

There's countless single player games to enjoy by yourself, but only a few good mmos that force you to be a part of smth much bigger.

Raven016

NiKr wrote: »

P0GG0 wrote: »

Do you realise the amount of people that dont like to take part in this guild thing ? why would you get a ridiculous advantage just for being that extravert gene pool ?

And literally all of those people can go play a NON-MULTIPLAYER game.

Also, I've been a shut-in introvert my whole life, but I've also being in guilds as a member and as a leader. You don't have to be an extravert to do that.

Probably there are degrees of introversion.
And people thinking they are introverts when they are not or not knowing what really means.
We interact with eachoter in communities since before we were humans.

Playing solo in mmos can be more a desire to feel the consequences of your own actions, to have your own progression. And reluctance to follow a leader.

Noaani

P0GG0 wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

It really shouldn't be an issue at all. Ever.

If you are forming a pickup group - in part or in full - have a healer.

If you are grouping with friends, make sure one of your friends is a healer. If none of your friends are healers, be a healer.

Now, some people may say that they prefer the gameplay of a tank or DPS. To these people my only comment is - if you are spending time in an MMO with your friends, and being a healer instead of another class is going to mean you don't enjoy your time, get better friends.

how is that remotely fun ? also why do need to have friends to be able to compete ?

The main avenue to fun in an MMORPG when you are playing with friends, should be those friends.

If your friends are not the main avenue of fun for you, you have shit friends and ao should find others.

If you are not playing with friends, just ensure one of the people you bring along is a healer - it isn't hard to do this.

Ludullu

Raven016 wrote: »

Playing solo in mmos can be more a desire to feel the consequences of your own actions, to have your own progression. And reluctance to follow a leader.

Then become that leader. That's what I did. I hated playing with other people, so I made my own guild, made people play with themselves, while I could still progress bit by bit.

My main point is that Ashes should remain a party-based game, because almost every damn other game is soloable these days, so people better not come here saying "let me win solo".

Obviously Ashes will have some solo content. And that solo content might even allow you to fully progress your character, just at a waaay slower pace. But majority of content should require a proper group, rather than a collection of solo randos w/ no trinity and/or coordination. We don't have enough games that have that kind of design, so no fucking wonder that everyone says "mmos are so lonely these days".

Effah

Look at the numbers open world survival looter shooters do. and those are mostly solo / duo players.
diablo 4 implemented that mmo feel to a mostly sologrind franchise and its probably the one thing none complained about.
why cant we reach that type of player ?

Devs keep pandering to the zerglings and i'm tired of it.

Noaani

P0GG0 wrote: »

Look at the numbers open world survival looter shooters do. and those are mostly solo / duo players.
diablo 4 implemented that mmo feel to a mostly sologrind franchise and its probably the one thing none complained about.
why cant we reach that type of player ?

Devs keep pandering to the zerglings and i'm tired of it.

Because Ashes is aiming to be an actual MMORPG, as opposed to a game that sometimes has that feel to it.

Dripyula

People play videogames because they like it, or because they are not very social in the "real" world.
Although I like to say physical world. Not like the things we experience in a videogame aren't real too, am I right?

But... a lot of videogame players play videogames because they are not very good at socialising.
In a videogame they might be able to break the ice quicker for whatever reason.
And many of them are introverts to some extend.
The best MMO is the type that allows all type of players to feel valued.
Something that World of Warcraft has understood hence why it has survived to this day.
Because it panders even to single player gamers in ways I cannot bother to mention here now.

And then there is of course the existence of WoW's pathetic army of SIMPS, stockholm syndrom players and all other kinds of ADDICTS who are just too cowardly, uncreative or have grown too used to playing WoW, to ever going to quit no matter what happens in the future.
Even if Ashes of Creation will come out and just SLAP... the people who cannot live without WoW anymore won't leave it.

Even if Ashes would also give solo players a very warm welcome.
What I think what Ashes should do is to somehow mention it to players when they approach type of content that is supposed to be tackled with a party of people.
Just how WoW was in the beginning.

" This is a quest recommended for about 2 to 3 players. "
" This is a quest recommended for 5 players. "
It's been some time but I remember even openworld Elite-mobs, being actually Elite-mobs which couldn't just be defeated by anybody. And that was GOOD, that made them look like much more serious business!

So I do think Ashes should allow careful lonewolfs their place in the foodchain.
But the Wolfs with a pack just go further. This is how it should be.
If someone plays an MMO and is too cowardly to try and ask someone if their presence can be accepted in a group, which really is all which life boils down to, then they do not belong there. Easy as that.

People are getting too weak, frail and anxious.
And that is coming from me. Someone who hates to having to group up too innitially.
I'm always worried I won't find anyone cause there is just no one who just wants to do some kind of content.
This too started to happen more & more in WoW before it - maybe as a result to this - became more & more of a single player supporting game.

Diamaht

P0GG0 wrote: »

Thokan wrote: »

P0GG0 wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

It really shouldn't be an issue at all. Ever.

If you are forming a pickup group - in part or in full - have a healer.

If you are grouping with friends, make sure one of your friends is a healer. If none of your friends are healers, be a healer.

Now, some people may say that they prefer the gameplay of a tank or DPS. To these people my only comment is - if you are spending time in an MMO with your friends, and being a healer instead of another class is going to mean you don't enjoy your time, get better friends.

how is that remotely fun ? also why do need to have friends to be able to compete ?

Because its not a singleplayer.

Do you realise the amount of people that dont like to take part in this guild thing ? why would you get a ridiculous advantage just for being that extravert gene pool ?

The thing to realize here is that the people supporting the game, and the people that are developing the game DO want the tank/dps/healer dynamic to return to mmos. Its one of the reasons most of us got excited from the beginning. Its just not going to change.

There could me more variety to choose from in healers, I'll give you that. So maybe future updates will add more healer archetypes (I'm sure they will), in the meantime the subclasses should provide a good amount of variety.

But no, this won't be a solo game for the most part. And content that doesn't require tank or healer usually just means mobs that can't kill you. In other words solo. Name a game that does this that can't be solo'd.

Ludullu

P0GG0 wrote: »

Devs keep pandering to the zerglings and i'm tired of it.

The solos ARE the zerglings. Soloable mmos lead to zergs, because it allows for anyone to just succeed. If anyone in the zerg is a successful player - the zerg is successful.

Party-based mmos don't do that, because they're designed and balanced around those parties as being singular units, instead of "everybody gets the same reward".

Zergs will most likely lose in Ashes exactly because it's gonna be a party game instead of a soloable mmo.

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