Xeeg wrote: » Kilion wrote: » Yes there are 8 archetypes with 35-40 unique active skills each; and each of these base skills can be modified with one out of 4 augementation school based on the selected "augmentation archetype". This would sum up to a total of 280-320 unique base skills overall 32 skills that can be created from one base skill 8'960-10'240 active skills in total for Intrepid to design Has this actually been said? Or is it possible that, of the 35-40 unique skills, a quarter have 2 augment choices and another quarter have 4 augment choices? This would half the work required and still be plenty of variation between archetypes. Then we would get280-320 unique base skills overall 8*((1/4)*2)+((1/4)*4)+(1/2)*1) = 16x variations of skills 4480-5120 active skills And again, if we imagine a skill like Barrage to have 8*4=32 variations, most of these might just be a simple colour palette change and some tweaks on the number side (does fire damage, adds bleed, etc.) Maybe only 3 variations change something about the actual skill that requires new assets. The majority of the work is developing the initial 300 base skills.
Kilion wrote: » Yes there are 8 archetypes with 35-40 unique active skills each; and each of these base skills can be modified with one out of 4 augementation school based on the selected "augmentation archetype". This would sum up to a total of 280-320 unique base skills overall 32 skills that can be created from one base skill 8'960-10'240 active skills in total for Intrepid to design
rikardp98 wrote: » willsummon wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » After seeing the ranger update I'm very confident in IS being able to make some great classes. However, I'm starting to doubt the 64 class model and would rather have around 10-12 well designed and unique classes that is also well balanced (in a group play setting). 64 different classes would be cool, but it will take a lot of work/time and money to make all those classes feel unique, have depth in its gameplay and be a viable option for PvP or PvE. Yes, the biggest hurdle is to create a good base archetype, but making the second archetype feel important and impactful will still be a HUGE hurdle and a big time investment. I'm convinced that IS could make it happen, but I'm not sure if it's worth it? The augment class system is a way for Ashes of Creation to have their cake and eat it to. One of the issues with MMO is that most MMO are designed so each class/archetype is different from the other classes/archetypes. This augment class system allows for classes that are similar but different enough such classes could not be merged together. Done right this will allow most players to find the archetype combination that suits them best. The difference in class/archetypes is a good thing, you can then have a vastly different class mechanics and class fantasy so people can find the class they connect the most to and feel different from any other class. The augmented system, as you said, is just a small change and classes will feel the same and you will never be able to get a complete class fantasy of your new class (2 combined archetypes). So what you will have is 8 different classes with 8 small changes in style and fantasy that will just feel incomplete. I do think that the augmented system can be amazing if they put a lot of time and effort in to it, but I'm still unsure if it's worth it. To me it will be much interesting if they continue to create classes they way have (love the ranger and the cleric for example) and scrap they 8 augmented system to spend more time on core archetypes and maybe new ones in the future.
willsummon wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » After seeing the ranger update I'm very confident in IS being able to make some great classes. However, I'm starting to doubt the 64 class model and would rather have around 10-12 well designed and unique classes that is also well balanced (in a group play setting). 64 different classes would be cool, but it will take a lot of work/time and money to make all those classes feel unique, have depth in its gameplay and be a viable option for PvP or PvE. Yes, the biggest hurdle is to create a good base archetype, but making the second archetype feel important and impactful will still be a HUGE hurdle and a big time investment. I'm convinced that IS could make it happen, but I'm not sure if it's worth it? The augment class system is a way for Ashes of Creation to have their cake and eat it to. One of the issues with MMO is that most MMO are designed so each class/archetype is different from the other classes/archetypes. This augment class system allows for classes that are similar but different enough such classes could not be merged together. Done right this will allow most players to find the archetype combination that suits them best.
rikardp98 wrote: » After seeing the ranger update I'm very confident in IS being able to make some great classes. However, I'm starting to doubt the 64 class model and would rather have around 10-12 well designed and unique classes that is also well balanced (in a group play setting). 64 different classes would be cool, but it will take a lot of work/time and money to make all those classes feel unique, have depth in its gameplay and be a viable option for PvP or PvE. Yes, the biggest hurdle is to create a good base archetype, but making the second archetype feel important and impactful will still be a HUGE hurdle and a big time investment. I'm convinced that IS could make it happen, but I'm not sure if it's worth it?
Mag7spy wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » willsummon wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » After seeing the ranger update I'm very confident in IS being able to make some great classes. However, I'm starting to doubt the 64 class model and would rather have around 10-12 well designed and unique classes that is also well balanced (in a group play setting). 64 different classes would be cool, but it will take a lot of work/time and money to make all those classes feel unique, have depth in its gameplay and be a viable option for PvP or PvE. Yes, the biggest hurdle is to create a good base archetype, but making the second archetype feel important and impactful will still be a HUGE hurdle and a big time investment. I'm convinced that IS could make it happen, but I'm not sure if it's worth it? The augment class system is a way for Ashes of Creation to have their cake and eat it to. One of the issues with MMO is that most MMO are designed so each class/archetype is different from the other classes/archetypes. This augment class system allows for classes that are similar but different enough such classes could not be merged together. Done right this will allow most players to find the archetype combination that suits them best. The difference in class/archetypes is a good thing, you can then have a vastly different class mechanics and class fantasy so people can find the class they connect the most to and feel different from any other class. The augmented system, as you said, is just a small change and classes will feel the same and you will never be able to get a complete class fantasy of your new class (2 combined archetypes). So what you will have is 8 different classes with 8 small changes in style and fantasy that will just feel incomplete. I do think that the augmented system can be amazing if they put a lot of time and effort in to it, but I'm still unsure if it's worth it. To me it will be much interesting if they continue to create classes they way have (love the ranger and the cleric for example) and scrap they 8 augmented system to spend more time on core archetypes and maybe new ones in the future. You are only speaking for yourself of course but still wrong. It is better to do what they are doing which will make the class much more interesting and allow people to have their own flavor and style than everyone being the same generic ranger. And for those that want to be the more generic one that will be in the game all you have to do is go ranger / ranger. I feel you are setting your expectations to unreachable levels and using that as your argument why they suddenly don't have "time" (again that just sounds like you want to rush the game out of development). All mmorpgs (well most) have class customization, The customization AoC is doing is having that around the augments.
RocketFarmer wrote: » </SARCASM> Based on the effects, looks like there’s just one class. Wizard. The rest are augments based on weapon choice and play style with the option to multi-class into Wizard. Examples: Wizard Bow Wizard Big Sword Wizard Shield Wizard Healing Wizard Sneaky Wizard Buff Wizard And the rarely seen Summon Things Wizard </END SARCASM>
Scarctic wrote: »
rikardp98 wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » willsummon wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » After seeing the ranger update I'm very confident in IS being able to make some great classes. However, I'm starting to doubt the 64 class model and would rather have around 10-12 well designed and unique classes that is also well balanced (in a group play setting). 64 different classes would be cool, but it will take a lot of work/time and money to make all those classes feel unique, have depth in its gameplay and be a viable option for PvP or PvE. Yes, the biggest hurdle is to create a good base archetype, but making the second archetype feel important and impactful will still be a HUGE hurdle and a big time investment. I'm convinced that IS could make it happen, but I'm not sure if it's worth it? The augment class system is a way for Ashes of Creation to have their cake and eat it to. One of the issues with MMO is that most MMO are designed so each class/archetype is different from the other classes/archetypes. This augment class system allows for classes that are similar but different enough such classes could not be merged together. Done right this will allow most players to find the archetype combination that suits them best. The difference in class/archetypes is a good thing, you can then have a vastly different class mechanics and class fantasy so people can find the class they connect the most to and feel different from any other class. The augmented system, as you said, is just a small change and classes will feel the same and you will never be able to get a complete class fantasy of your new class (2 combined archetypes). So what you will have is 8 different classes with 8 small changes in style and fantasy that will just feel incomplete. I do think that the augmented system can be amazing if they put a lot of time and effort in to it, but I'm still unsure if it's worth it. To me it will be much interesting if they continue to create classes they way have (love the ranger and the cleric for example) and scrap they 8 augmented system to spend more time on core archetypes and maybe new ones in the future. You are only speaking for yourself of course but still wrong. It is better to do what they are doing which will make the class much more interesting and allow people to have their own flavor and style than everyone being the same generic ranger. And for those that want to be the more generic one that will be in the game all you have to do is go ranger / ranger. I feel you are setting your expectations to unreachable levels and using that as your argument why they suddenly don't have "time" (again that just sounds like you want to rush the game out of development). All mmorpgs (well most) have class customization, The customization AoC is doing is having that around the augments. The problem is that the augmented system will, yes take time, but it will also not change much about the class and its mechanics. And its the change in mechanics of a class that makes it feel different and have variation. I'm also not saying that they shouldn't have different specs or variation within a class, I just dont think it's necessary to create 8 variations just because there is 8 archetypes. And no, I do not want them to rush out the game. I have been following this game since the start of the Kickstarter in 2017. I can wait. I just want them to think over what they spend their time on and make it worth it. A system that creates variation just because to create variation isn't a system I think they should focus on.
Mag7spy wrote: » There is not a problem, its a problem you are coming up in your own head....The changes the argument system bring based on current understandings is completely fine and impactful. IE Warrior leaves trail of fire that does DoT or their charge becomes a teleport as an example. That is where the customization comes into play and player choice.
Mag7spy wrote: » Again this sounds like a you problems wanting them to have less skills because you think its not do able even though you aren't working for them o.O. I've explained before already that it is like lego blocks, you can take effects from other elements of the classes and use it which reduces a lot of the work value....
Mag7spy wrote: » If later on the decide it won't meet their schedule and it is too much and they choose to do half of them and do more later on that is for them to decide. Your suggestion is literarily saying for them to just stop so they can release it sooner Ie* only have ranger/ ranger, warrior/warrior, ect and remove all the other ones. They have deadlines to meet and plans they are following they are doing more than just thinking things over people working there on these things not just thinking about it.
rikardp98 wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » There is not a problem, its a problem you are coming up in your own head....The changes the argument system bring based on current understandings is completely fine and impactful. IE Warrior leaves trail of fire that does DoT or their charge becomes a teleport as an example. That is where the customization comes into play and player choice. Sorry I should have said a possible problem, that yes l'm coming up with in my own head. The changes they have mentioned is not class changing that it will feel like a new class that have a different type of class fantasy. Yes it's a choice of customization that players will have and may bring variation. But why feel the need to create 8 variations just because? To me it would be much better to focus on the base archetype and what makes sense in that class fantasy rather than create 8 different half classes. Yes this may not be a problem, it's just a concern I have. Mag7spy wrote: » Again this sounds like a you problems wanting them to have less skills because you think its not do able even though you aren't working for them o.O. I've explained before already that it is like lego blocks, you can take effects from other elements of the classes and use it which reduces a lot of the work value.... Yes the start always takes the longest (base abilities) but creating as many active abilities they are trying to do, that will take a lot of effort and time just because they decide back in 2017 that they wanted 64 classes. This is just about them looking and thinking things over and maybe reevaluate what the game needs. Mag7spy wrote: » If later on the decide it won't meet their schedule and it is too much and they choose to do half of them and do more later on that is for them to decide. Your suggestion is literarily saying for them to just stop so they can release it sooner Ie* only have ranger/ ranger, warrior/warrior, ect and remove all the other ones. They have deadlines to meet and plans they are following they are doing more than just thinking things over people working there on these things not just thinking about it. This is not about releasing the game sooner, I have never said that and would never want that. This is about them spending time on the game where it's worth it. And from what I have seen from the augmented system, I don't personally feel it's worth it. This may however change when they show it off in a future live stream or in a future play test period.
Trickster wrote: » There aren't 64 classes at all... In reality only 8 which in my opinion is very little and I hope that with time they increase the amount... But yh you can mix up 2 classes and it will be given an unique name for that class... Honestly I prefer the archeage class system, 3 classes instead of 1 and you can always change and level up the classes you want
Aszkalon wrote: » Scarctic wrote: » Ahoi da, mein werter Mit-Gothic Fan. 👋🙂" Reject German. Return to English. (lol) " I don't think something like +300 Base Abilities alone will be a difficult thing. It is just a Challenge for the Start of the Game, but hasn't like every MMO with +5 Classes so much Abilities at one Point in time ? Passive and active Abilities counted together.
Mag7spy wrote: » Why are you talking about half classes, I feel you really don't understand the current class system int he game. The current classes will be completely, you can't augment all their skills at the same time you have limited skill points...That means from lvl 1-50 all those skills will work without a augment effecting it.
Mag7spy wrote: » I've pointed out multiple times points against your concerns based on some things with development. I think at this point its time for you to stop using the buzzward and give details on why you exactly have those concerns or comment on my own points.
Mag7spy wrote: » Again you bringing up 2017 sounds like you are wanting them to rush the game out, that year has nothing to do with anything 2017 they were not in full development with 270 employees...They scale up based on their needs and based on their schedule people are literarily paid to make, held accountable and adjust if need be.
Mag7spy wrote: » You don't feel it is worth it so you don't care sure. I feel it is worth it and plenty of other people based on their expectation of it. That is where your class customization again will come from, the same way other mmorpgs have has class customization i similar ways this is nothing new.....All you can say is that they are doing double the amount compared to other mmorpgs as a lose number.
Mag7spy wrote: » You concern is you want them to focus on the archetype and it will be focused on since that will be where most your skills come from... I think you have some weird idea that devs won't do work suddenly mixed with a higher expectation of the augment system else you feel it is pointless to have (which is very far from the truth).
Mag7spy wrote: » Also as usual things are still in development temper expectations some classes might be left out, maybe all skills won't be augmentable, etc. That is your indication on a "time or other issue". You need to have grounds for what you are saying not just use buzzwords. Because if we go off sololy what we all think that gets us no where but living in our own headspace. It doesn't help get your point across.
Scarctic wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » There is not a problem, its a problem you are coming up in your own head....The changes the argument system bring based on current understandings is completely fine and impactful. IE Warrior leaves trail of fire that does DoT or their charge becomes a teleport as an example. That is where the customization comes into play and player choice. Sorry I should have said a possible problem, that yes l'm coming up with in my own head. The changes they have mentioned is not class changing that it will feel like a new class that have a different type of class fantasy. Yes it's a choice of customization that players will have and may bring variation. But why feel the need to create 8 variations just because? To me it would be much better to focus on the base archetype and what makes sense in that class fantasy rather than create 8 different half classes. Yes this may not be a problem, it's just a concern I have. Mag7spy wrote: » Again this sounds like a you problems wanting them to have less skills because you think its not do able even though you aren't working for them o.O. I've explained before already that it is like lego blocks, you can take effects from other elements of the classes and use it which reduces a lot of the work value.... Yes the start always takes the longest (base abilities) but creating as many active abilities they are trying to do, that will take a lot of effort and time just because they decide back in 2017 that they wanted 64 classes. This is just about them looking and thinking things over and maybe reevaluate what the game needs. Mag7spy wrote: » If later on the decide it won't meet their schedule and it is too much and they choose to do half of them and do more later on that is for them to decide. Your suggestion is literarily saying for them to just stop so they can release it sooner Ie* only have ranger/ ranger, warrior/warrior, ect and remove all the other ones. They have deadlines to meet and plans they are following they are doing more than just thinking things over people working there on these things not just thinking about it. This is not about releasing the game sooner, I have never said that and would never want that. This is about them spending time on the game where it's worth it. And from what I have seen from the augmented system, I don't personally feel it's worth it. This may however change when they show it off in a future live stream or in a future play test period. What did you see from the augmented system other than design philosophy out of Stevens mouth and on paper? oO You go in circles because you don't want to believe that Intrepid is capable of doing what they say. I can understand that coming from multiple games where that was the case 100% but seeing what they are capable of throughout the development process shows me their passion and how genuine they go about this project and us as a community. Have a bit of faith!
Mag7spy wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » There is not a problem, its a problem you are coming up in your own head....The changes the argument system bring based on current understandings is completely fine and impactful. IE Warrior leaves trail of fire that does DoT or their charge becomes a teleport as an example. That is where the customization comes into play and player choice. Sorry I should have said a possible problem, that yes l'm coming up with in my own head. The changes they have mentioned is not class changing that it will feel like a new class that have a different type of class fantasy. Yes it's a choice of customization that players will have and may bring variation. But why feel the need to create 8 variations just because? To me it would be much better to focus on the base archetype and what makes sense in that class fantasy rather than create 8 different half classes. Yes this may not be a problem, it's just a concern I have. Mag7spy wrote: » Again this sounds like a you problems wanting them to have less skills because you think its not do able even though you aren't working for them o.O. I've explained before already that it is like lego blocks, you can take effects from other elements of the classes and use it which reduces a lot of the work value.... Yes the start always takes the longest (base abilities) but creating as many active abilities they are trying to do, that will take a lot of effort and time just because they decide back in 2017 that they wanted 64 classes. This is just about them looking and thinking things over and maybe reevaluate what the game needs. Mag7spy wrote: » If later on the decide it won't meet their schedule and it is too much and they choose to do half of them and do more later on that is for them to decide. Your suggestion is literarily saying for them to just stop so they can release it sooner Ie* only have ranger/ ranger, warrior/warrior, ect and remove all the other ones. They have deadlines to meet and plans they are following they are doing more than just thinking things over people working there on these things not just thinking about it. This is not about releasing the game sooner, I have never said that and would never want that. This is about them spending time on the game where it's worth it. And from what I have seen from the augmented system, I don't personally feel it's worth it. This may however change when they show it off in a future live stream or in a future play test period. Why are you talking about half classes, I feel you really don't understand the current class system int he game. The current classes will be completely, you can't augment all their skills at the same time you have limited skill points...That means from lvl 1-50 all those skills will work without a augment effecting it. You really need to get this idea of "Half ass" out of your mind they are designing a system in a certain way they aren't half assing it, nor does less classes mean more abilities for a single class...That is literally not how they are designing it.I've pointed out multiple times points against your concerns based on some things with development. I think at this point its time for you to stop using the buzzward and give details on why you exactly have those concerns or comment on my own points. Again you bringing up 2017 sounds like you are wanting them to rush the game out, that year has nothing to do with anything 2017 they were not in full development with 270 employees...They scale up based on their needs and based on their schedule people are literarily paid to make, held accountable and adjust if need be. You don't feel it is worth it so you don't care sure. I feel it is worth it and plenty of other people based on their expectation of it. That is where your class customization again will come from, the same way other mmorpgs have has class customization i similar ways this is nothing new.....All you can say is that they are doing double the amount compared to other mmorpgs as a lose number. Quick example I can easily use is rift at launch had 16 unique classes, that means 16 unique classes fof abilities and 16 unique skill trees. You can make the argument AoC has more classes / mixes. But that is not exactly true as it does not have 16 unique skill trees but one per archetype. Now does it have unique abilities per class but those core of those abilities change based on the class combination and will have a intended base to work from. So current archetypes well be fully fleshed out and your customization and class tweaking comes from your augments / archetype. You concern is you want them to focus on the archetype and it will be focused on since that will be where most your skills come from... I think you have some weird idea that devs won't do work suddenly mixed with a higher expectation of the augment system else you feel it is pointless to have (which is very far from the truth). Also as usual things are still in development temper expectations some classes might be left out, maybe all skills won't be augmentable, etc. That is your indication on a "time or other issue". You need to have grounds for what you are saying not just use buzzwords. Because if we go off sololy what we all think that gets us no where but living in our own headspace. It doesn't help get your point across.
rikardp98 wrote: » A player wanting to play as a Paladin will never be a true paladin, only a shield warrior with some holy dmg (this is an assumption).
NiKr wrote: » Steven keeps saying that augments will somehow bring big changes to abilities, but I'll believe that when I see it. But even if they will - that's gonna be happening waaaay later in A2.
Dygz wrote: » Archetype v Classes is semantics.
Dygz wrote: » Primary Archetype is the Ashes term for Class. Secondary Archetype is the Ashes term for Sub-Class.
Dygz wrote: » Steven has never said "big changes". Rather, it's not just minimal flavor. In many cases the changes will be significant. It's what allows a Py'Rai Tank to play differently from an Empyrean Tank. More importantly, it's what allows a Mitigation Tank to play differently from an Evasion Tank.
