Linux Support For Alpha2 (and possibly launch)

How many votes does the community need to get for Intrepid to consider linux support for AoC?
I give my vote +1

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nanfoodle wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

nanfoodle wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

nanfoodle wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

nanfoodle wrote: »

That 1% people keep quoting is far from what Linux Gaming has been going since the Steam Deck launched. There is many more millions of new Linux gamers. Because of what Valve has done, it takes little to support Linux gaming. You still use a Windows exe but you just need to support the proton support for Linux. More and more people are making Linux gaming boxes. Ashes should so add support for this.

None of what Valve has done has any impact on making Linux a suitable platform for competitive games.

Casual/single player games perhaps, but not any game with any form of competition.

Additionally, Steam Deck existing has not really added many Linux first gamers - almost everyone that has one uses it as their secondary or tertiary gaming device.

Wrong. 100% wrong. What they have done with Linux and proton support has so many people building full Linux desktops to game. You can right now install Steam OS on a desktop and start gaming.

Also Valve will be releasing the full support Steam OS for the public as well. Becouse of Valve so many windows exe copies of the game just straight up run on Linux. Supporting Linux is now coming down to just supporting proton.

Cool.

How does any of that address the objective fact that Linux is easier to cheat on, and harder to detect cheating on?

Because that was my main point in relation to competitive games.

Until Linux allows software in use to block user access to the Linux kernel, Linux will not be something developers of actually competitive games really want to support.

This is something that would have to be Linux-wide, and the developers working on the Linux kernel simply wont allow for anything like that. For better or worse, Windows puts the wants and needs of the software first, while Linux puts the wants and needs of the user first. This very fundamental fact is both why some people love Linux, and why some software will never be ported there.

I mean, Valve almost didn't support it with CS2. The development team of the game itself didnt want to, but their hand was forced (by Gabe himself, if my information is correct).

Anti cheat software is 100% a problem on lunix. I also don't think that's a valid reason to not support it. Anti cheat software developers will start working on ways to make this work, when it's worth their time.

You are close to being right here.

The one thing you have wrong is that the next step is not from anti-cheat software developers, nor game developers. It is Linux developers that need to take that next step.

As long as the user has better access to the kernel than the software, you cant have functional anti-cheat software.

Since most Linux development decisions are made by software engineers, this is something that is almost guranteed to never happen. Software engineers don't generally see value in limiting user access. Since this is only really a change that competitive games would need, the general concensus seems to be that Linux users can just play the many non-competitive games that are available, and retain full kernel access.

I actually agree that this is the right choice for Linux, as user access to everything is kind of the point.However, this is the change that needs to be made in order for competitive games to consider Linux - which is to say that competitive games probably shouldnt ever be played on Linux.

A deamon that could be responsible for that level of access.

It literally couldn't.

A daemon is a process that the user doesnt have direct control over, this is probably why your quick google search made you think this could do what i am talking about.

The problem is, a daemon is still just a process running on top of the OS kernel. If the user has access to the kernel underneath the daemon, it doesnt matter that the user cant directly interact with said daemon.

Nothing in Linux prevents the user from having access to the kernel. That is kind of the point of Linux.

Edit to add; did you honestly think you'd just discovered something hundreds of development studios and hundreds of thousands of individual game developers haven't been able to figure out?

Like, really?

I mean, if there is a solution to this, it isn't in something as basic as a daemon...

Noaani

Botagar wrote: »

nanfoodle , you're not debating people who approach this topic with good faith.

I actually agree - at least from my part.

I dont debate on good faith, I debate on logic.

When you are debating with logic, you don't also need to be debating on gold faith. "Good faith" is being fair, open and honest. If all I am doing is debating logic, it is open and honest by default, meaning the only thing missing is "fair".

If you come up against someone debating using logic and find their discussion to be unfair, that is simply because the logic of the situation is against you.

Instead of complaining that they arent acting in gold faith, perhaps consider logic next time.

Botagar

Noaani wrote: »

Botagar wrote: »

nanfoodle , you're not debating people who approach this topic with good faith.

I actually agree - at least from my part.

I dont debate on good faith, I debate on logic.

When you are debating with...

Holy lordy you really are one hell of a cracker Noaani.

I've only ever met 1 person in real life that had their feelings mixed up with the notion of "facts and logic" as you are presenting here. They were a special breed of person i must say.

Your response here is a CLASSIC example of bad faith

You KNOW what I mean by "bad faith", BUT you choose to represent it as if i were hoping or believing in something as if that idea was a nebulous deity.
You then proceed to "counter" me not on the core technical argument i brought up, but your invented misconception of faith.
You still haven't ACTUALLY addressed how the windows kernel is more secure for gaming.
You still haven't ACTUALLY addressed how it's easier to cheat on linux.
You still haven't ACTUALLY addressed how modifying the linux kernel for game cheating is better/worse than writing a windows kernel level driver for the same ends.
You haven't displayed any technical understanding of what even the kernel is.
You haven't presented evidence for many of the claims you make... granted my brain gets smoother by the second trying to read through your posts so I might have missed some.

But sure, lets rebut on misrepresenting some words. That'll show me. I really feel my place now.

I implore you from my position of diminished stature.... try do answer at least *some* of the technical questions, or at least link to stats about cheating on linux, or specifically *how* cheating would be worse beyond this nebulous "but the kernel..."

Noaani

Botagar wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Botagar wrote: »

nanfoodle , you're not debating people who approach this topic with good faith.

I actually agree - at least from my part.

I dont debate on good faith, I debate on logic.

When you are debating with...

Holy lordy you really are one hell of a cracker Noaani.
I've only ever met 1 person in real life that had their feelings mixed up with the notion of "facts and logic" as you are presenting here.

The problem is, I want to see Linux be more widely adopted.

If I were arguing my feelings, I'd be arguing that all developers should develop for Linux.

Botagar wrote: »

I implore you from my position of diminished stature.... try do answer at least *some* of the technical questions, or at least link to stats about cheating on linux, or specifically *how* cheating would be worse beyond this nebulous "but the kernel..."

Why?

Can you not use google?

It is kind of basic stuff. Look at Wine - its basically Windows API in Linux right - but because it's so easy to patch, a user can make it behave in vairous ways (such as telling DirectX to render buildings as transparent). While this is technically possible to do in Windows, it is both MUCH harder for the user to do, and also is far easier for anti-cheat software to detect (whitelisting known good hashes).

Again, this is basic stuff and shouldn't need to be explained to anyone wanting to be a part of a discussion on Linux.

I'm wondering if you mistakenly think i am saying that all Linux users cheat. That isn't what I am saying at all - I am saying that if Linux were supported, all cheaters would use Linux.

nanfoodle

Logic can be used to argue any side of an argument. Fact often can be twisted to mean what ever you want

Botagar wrote: »

OH look, the same set of people rolling out the same strawman arguments they don't have concrete evidence to backup!
Who wudda thunk....
BUT BUT.... WIndOwS KerNeL sO sECUrE...
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/gettingstarted/writing-a-very-small-kmdf--driver

Also love the argument "nobody plays on Linux, thus we don't need to consider it", what a classic!

@nanfoodle , you're not debating people who approach this topic with good faith. All I've asked Intrepid is to not deliberately block linux, but these guys carry on as if allowing linux players is going to open the gates to hell. You cannot reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.

Everyone thinks they know best on forums. I jump in threads more to let the devs know what I am looking for as a backer. I only engage enough to make my point and move on. Nice to see your doing much the same

When Valve drops a fully supported Steam Os outside the Steam Deck. I will be making the jump to full Linux gaming. There are enough games out there that support proton that I will just happily support companies that do just that and walk away from the rest

Noaani

nanfoodle wrote: »

Everyone thinks they know best on forums. I jump in threads more to let the devs know what I am looking for as a backer. I only engage enough to make my point and move on.

I'm almost the exact opposite. I assume Intrepid don't need my input oj most matters - as even the things various developers ask for input on, it usually just end up being the way the game developer would have done it anyway. Asking for inout is usually just an illusionary tactic.

Rather, what I tend to do on the forums is temper other posters expectation. Going over a few of my recent posts, someone says they thing the node history record system will use the scribe crafting class, I'll point out that this will likely not be the case. Someone says they think 64 classes is great, I'll point iut to expect 8 classes with 8 variants each. Someone wants the game ro run on Linux, I'll point out that we shouldn't expdct that as Linux is inherently less secure from a game developers perspective.

The fact that I often pour metaphorical cold water over peoples ideas is why I often end up in protracted debates.

When Valve drops a fully supported Steam Os outside the Steam Deck. I will be making the jump to full Linux gaming. There are enough games out there that support proton that I will just happily support companies that do just that and walk away from the rest

There are indeed plenty of games that support Linux - almost all single player and/or casual games do, to an extent.

If that is enough in terms of gaming for you, then yeah, Linux is all good.

Shufune

i really hope the anticheat is compatible with proton. if its EAC, just tick the box please. its so difficult to find a proper answer on these forums when searching as each post is full of clueless linux haters derailing the conversation.

Noaani

Shufune wrote: »

i really hope the anticheat is compatible with proton. if its EAC, just tick the box please. its so difficult to find a proper answer on these forums when searching as each post is full of clueless linux haters derailing the conversation.

I mean, the answer has been posted in many threads.

There is no plan for Linux support at this time.

As to clueless people in regards to Linux - that would be the person that things just ticking the box for EAC doesn't mean anything. If there wasn't a reason to not tick that box, they wouldn't have it as an option - EAC would just work on Linux as it does Windows. The reason it is a check box, however, is because there are implications and considerations to make with it - namely that EAC is still easy to get around on Linux unless you simply don't let the game run on Linux.

patrick68794

Noaani wrote: »

Shufune wrote: »

i really hope the anticheat is compatible with proton. if its EAC, just tick the box please. its so difficult to find a proper answer on these forums when searching as each post is full of clueless linux haters derailing the conversation.

I mean, the answer has been posted in many threads.

There is no plan for Linux support at this time.

As to clueless people in regards to Linux - that would be the person that things just ticking the box for EAC doesn't mean anything. If there wasn't a reason to not tick that box, they wouldn't have it as an option - EAC would just work on Linux as it does Windows. The reason it is a check box, however, is because there are implications and considerations to make with it - namely that EAC is still easy to get around on Linux unless you simply don't let the game run on Linux.

There absolutely is more to it than just ticking a box lol people don't realize what actually goes into enabling it properly. I get that some people would be okay with Intrepid just enabling it and letting whatever happens happen but that isn't how businesses work and really no software company should ever release something like that. To do it properly would mean testing the game thoroughly to make sure there are no compatibility issues on Linux, that there are no new exploits that might be possible, making sure the compatibility doesn't break with updates, and more. It adds a huge amount of work outside of just checking a box for them to do it correctly without potential backlash if something does go wrong. The only people parroting the "checking a box" crap are those that have no idea how production software releases actually work or how they're tested, updated, and maintained.

Velkin

The ONLY time I fire up Windows is when I am gaming. I use Linux for everything else. If I could get the 'new' games to run on Linux (with the performance of running on Windows) then I would kick Windows to the curb once and for all. Would absolutely LOVE to see AoC run natively on Linux but I doubt it'll ever happen and that's a shame.

Archy_Pelago

Native Linux support may be possible in future.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Platforms
Windows is dying and in a world without fences, who needs gates?

Shufune

We don't need native linux support. Unless it's valve, native linux games are almost always inferior to proton at this point, and terribly hard to maintain for all distros being compatible. We just need the anticheat to function with proton, most anticheats work just fine on linux with some rare exceptions like vanguard from riot games and studios CHOOSING to block us with EAC. Most games with EAC work just fine. https://areweanticheatyet.com/ It would be a massive mistake from Intrepid now and in the future to block steam deck users and linux gamers from enjoying an mmo like this because of poor anticheat implementation.

Taleof2Cities

Shufune wrote: »

It would be a massive mistake from Intrepid now and in the future to block steam deck users and linux gamers from enjoying an mmo like this because of poor anticheat implementation.

Several links in this thread point to Steven acknowledging the less than 1% of players that are using Linux.

Would this really be a “massive mistake”?

RocketFarmer

While they said they would have voting on some things in this game, I don’t think this is one of those topics.

Shufune

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Shufune wrote: »

It would be a massive mistake from Intrepid now and in the future to block steam deck users and linux gamers from enjoying an mmo like this because of poor anticheat implementation.

Several links in this thread point to Steven acknowledging the less than 1% of players that are using Linux.

Would this really be a “massive mistake”?

It has to do with the future of steamos release on desktop and steamdeck. Not much has to be done. 1% is also wrong. https://www.gamingonlinux.com/steam-tracker/#:~:text=Okay, how many Linux users,users" for Linux+Steam.
Windows is only getting worse and linux will only grow thanks to valve's efforts.

Noaani

Velkin wrote: »

The ONLY time I fire up Windows is when I am gaming. I use Linux for everything else. If I could get the 'new' games to run on Linux (with the performance of running on Windows) then I would kick Windows to the curb once and for all. Would absolutely LOVE to see AoC run natively on Linux but I doubt it'll ever happen and that's a shame.

I agree - the thing is, you need to be saying this on the Linux developer forums, not here.

It isn't gaming companies that are just not supporting Linux, Linux is not supporting the gaming industry. There is more to this discussion than performance or how much work it takes, in regards to any game with a competitive element there is the integrety of the game itself at stake - and that is something Linux developers have simply put no effort in to providing.

If you can mostly prevent people cheating on one platform, but a platform that you are likely to see less than 2% of your users use offers no means at all to prevent even the most basic of cheats (and in fact provides users with ways to obfuscate their actions), then why would you release a competitive game on that second platform at all?

It is Linux developers that need to stand up here and do what is needed, not game developers.

BlackBrony

Windows might suck, but Linux sucks ten times more for gaming.
I am sorry, but I don't want to read 100 pages on how to make WiFi work, or why Wifi stopped suddenly working because there was a kernel update.
And then you have to figure out how to solve the issue.
It's a waste of time and Intrepid should waste no money or time in making Ashes compatible with Linux

ariatras

Linux has a dedicated and passionate user base within the gaming community. Many Linux users rely on compatibility layers like Wine or Proton to run Windows-based games, providing them access to a broader range of titles. For Ashes of Creation, supporting these users by not flagging them for using Wine or Proton could be beneficial for both the community and the developers. Below are key reasons why this approach would be advantageous and how it might be implemented without creating a significant burden on the development team.

1. Expanding the Player Base:

1.1. Inclusivity and Accessibility:
By not flagging Linux users who rely on Wine or Proton, Ashes of Creation would demonstrate inclusivity, welcoming a broader range of players. This inclusivity could help expand the game’s community and increase its player base, ultimately contributing to the game’s success.

1.2. Market Differentiation:
Supporting Linux users, even unofficially, can set Ashes of Creation apart from other MMOs that may ignore or inadvertently exclude this segment of players. This could attract positive attention from the broader gaming community, particularly among those who value open-source and alternative operating systems.

1.3. The Steam Deck and Its Growing Popularity:
The Steam Deck, which runs on a Linux-based operating system and utilizes Proton for compatibility with Windows games, has rapidly gained popularity among gamers. By ensuring that Ashes of Creation works smoothly on the Steam Deck without flagging or penalizing users, Intrepid Studios could tap into this growing market. The Steam Deck’s success highlights an increasing demand for Linux-compatible gaming, and accommodating this demand could significantly broaden the game’s reach.

2. Low-Cost Support with Minimal Development Impact:

2.1. Leveraging Existing Compatibility Layers:
Wine and Proton are well-established tools that provide high compatibility for running Windows games on Linux without requiring native support from developers. Since these tools are maintained by their respective communities and developers, Ashes of Creation developers wouldn't need to invest significant resources into maintaining a Linux-specific version of the game.

2.2. Avoiding False Positives in Anti-Cheat Systems:
One of the primary concerns with using compatibility layers is the potential for anti-cheat systems to flag users unfairly. However, modern anti-cheat systems can be configured to recognize when Wine or Proton is being used, preventing false positives. This can be done with minimal adjustments, such as adding exceptions for known compatibility layer signatures.

3. Fostering a Positive Community Relationship:

3.1. Building Goodwill:
By not flagging Linux users, Intrepid Studios could foster goodwill within the gaming and Linux communities. This positive relationship could lead to greater community support, including user-generated content, mods, and positive word-of-mouth promotion.

3.2. Transparency and Communication:
Clear communication from the developers regarding the game’s stance on Wine and Proton usage would be key. By being transparent about not officially supporting Linux but also not penalizing those who choose to play on it, the developers can maintain trust and respect within the community.

4. Addressing Security and Fair Play Concerns:

4.1. Ensuring Fair Play:
Developers might worry that compatibility layers could introduce vulnerabilities or exploits. However, the Proton and Wine communities are generally vigilant about security and fair play, and they actively work to ensure compatibility without compromising game integrity. Additionally, developers could implement additional monitoring specific to Linux environments to address any concerns.

4.2. Community Collaboration:
Intrepid Studios could collaborate with the Wine and Proton communities to identify and address any potential issues. This collaboration wouldn’t require heavy investment but could be as simple as engaging with community forums or monitoring bug reports from Linux users.

5. Long-Term Benefits and Community Engagement:

5.1. Future-Proofing:
As the Linux gaming ecosystem continues to grow, particularly with the advent of gaming-focused Linux distributions and devices like the Steam Deck, supporting Linux users indirectly through non-flagging policies could future-proof Ashes of Creation and keep it relevant in a shifting market.

5.2. Leveraging Community Expertise:
The Linux community is known for its technical expertise and willingness to troubleshoot and solve compatibility issues. By acknowledging this community, Intrepid Studios could benefit from community-driven support and feedback, potentially reducing the workload on their own support teams.

PS: Keep in mind the number is now over four percent. Not under one percent. Still not as much as the 70 percent marketshare of Windows, but still!

Haplo164

I'm going to chime in here with a: I'm not asking for actual Linux support, just please don't actively fight against it.

Verus

Adding another comment to the thread in support of enabling Linux functionality, which is designed to be quite easy in the engine that they are using if they enable alternatives for anti-cheat. The proportion of Linux users interested in Ashes can be anticipated as higher than most MMOs for reasons that should be intuitive.

Please do consider some low level of basic Linux support even if it's simply allowing a third party platform such as Steam to assist.

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